Protestantism might just be Christianity

[Tmutarakhan]

Could you elaborate?

If Jesus rejected the tradition of the Pharisees, if he rejected the Oral Law, he would not have accepted that picking grain on the Sabbath was unlawful.

Picking grain on the Sabbath is unlawful in the Written Law. It is a commandment given earlier than Sinai.

[Tmutarakhan]

If Jesus rejected the tradition of the Pharisees, if he rejected the Oral Law, he would not have accepted that picking grain on the Sabbath was unlawful.

But, according to the text, it appears that he does in fact reject that picking ears of corn is unlawful, and cite examples in David, etc. to prove its permissibility, before following that with a statement that he is the Lord of the Sabbath, and therefore above the law, so to speak.

His statement does not mean that he, uniquely, is above the law, but that humans in general (such as David, and the priest who agreed with him) ought to know when the law should be violated. The law is meant for the good of humans; it is not the case that humans were created to obey laws even when that is bad for them.

[Menassa]

If Jesus rejected the tradition of the Pharisees, if he rejected the Oral Law, he would not have accepted that picking grain on the Sabbath was unlawful.

Picking grain on the Sabbath is unlawful in the Written Law. It is a commandment given earlier than Sinai.

I find that hard to beleive since the lack of grain they had in the desert. Remeber God had provided the manna as food.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

If Jesus rejected the tradition of the Pharisees, if he rejected the Oral Law, he would not have accepted that picking grain on the Sabbath was unlawful.

Picking grain on the Sabbath is unlawful in the Written Law. It is a commandment given earlier than Sinai.

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

[Menassa]

Picking grain on the Sabbath is unlawful in the Written Law. It is a commandment given earlier than Sinai.

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

That idea is unimportant in this discussion.

[Distruzio]

The reason there are Christian denominations is because they recognize Jesus as their savior. Some Satanist also believe Black Jesus is their savior too, so does that mean Satanism is Christianity?

No, because they are Satanists. Recognition of Jesus Christ as Savior is not just the doctrine needed to qualify as a Christian.

I agree.

[Distruzio]

Just seeing if I'm understanding Distruzio's position in a nutshell: The Church (Catholic and/or Orthodox) is made up of and contains the literal body of Jesus of Nazareth/Galilee , Christ. Therefore Protestants by rejecting the authority of the Church (Catholic and/or Orthodox) reject the physical body , authority and continuation of the mission on earth of Jesus Christ and thus cannot be labeled Christian but only Protestant (for lack of another title). Protestantism is a just another Abrahamic religion by way of Protestants utilizing the Old Testament because their utilization of the New Testament is void since the Christ which Protestants acknowledge as the Christ isn't the Christ because it isn't the Church. The authority of the Pope isn't the issue - it all about the Church - the body of Christ. So the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church are the same Church. All three are the Church. All three are the Christ. Another trinity mystery.

In a nutshell, yes. That's it.

[Entmonton]

This infighting and holier-than-thou attitudes people show to others in Christianity is why I left the church. That and Paganism just fit better, considering that a lot of traditions borrowed from it.

You would do well to read the OP entirely... because I don't make the argument you attribute to me.

You basically say that Protestants aren't Christian despite them professing their faith to the teachings of Jesus Christ and declaring him their Lord & Savior because they don't practice the same traditions as you do; I do consider that holier-than-thou in a metaphorical and literal sense, no matter how nicely your argument was worded.
On top of that, to assume ALL Protestants are sola scripturists is a fallacy; the churches I've been to in my life consider the Bible important, but not the final say in matters due to all the translations that have occured from when it was first written to today. The spirit is far more important than the letter is what knowledge I've gained from them.

No matter what religion you are, at its core, a religion is a group of individuals, and individuals each have their own thoughts. Christianity is no different. I consider it a beautiful thing that so many demoninations have branched out because people took a leap of faith with how God & Jesus impacted their life and what it meant to them. I can respect them, just as much as I respect the people who found that tradition was more to their liking.

My opinion probably hasn't helped matters for various reasons, but I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

[Distruzio]

You would do well to read the OP entirely... because I don't make the argument you attribute to me.

You basically say that Protestants aren't Christian despite them professing their faith to the teachings of Jesus Christ and declaring him their Lord & Savior because they don't practice the same traditions as you do; I do consider that holier-than-thou in a metaphorical and literal sense, no matter how nicely your argument was worded.
On top of that, to assume ALL Protestants are sola scripturists is a fallacy; the churches I've been to in my life consider the Bible important, but not the final say in matters due to all the translations that have occured from when it was first written to today. The spirit is far more important than the letter is what knowledge I've gained from them.

No matter what religion you are, at its core, a religion is a group of individuals, and individuals each have their own thoughts. Christianity is no different. I consider it a beautiful thing that so many demoninations have branched out because people took a leap of faith with how God & Jesus impacted their life and what it meant to them. I can respect them, just as much as I respect the people who found that tradition was more to their liking.

My opinion probably hasn't helped matters for various reasons, but I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

Incorrect. I'm "basically" asking for someone to prove my bigotry wrong. I'm "basically" saying, "hey guys. I'm a dick. I'd like you to figure out a way to explain this thing to me so that I can stop being a dick. It makes me feel like shit."

That's what I actually said. I also happen to have explained why I think I'm a dick.

Many of the responders noticed that I was a dick and then decided that reminding of what I already knew was the appropriate way to correct this failing of mine.

"Guys? I think I'm a dick. Here is why... care to help me with this?"

"This guy is a dick! Hey! Hey everybody? He's a dick! Lookit!"

"...yeah... okay."

[Todlichebujoku]

Because we have things to do. Heaven is, according to Christianity, a state of being wherein one is overcome with the desire and will to pray unceasingly. All Christians are called to do this - pray unceasingly. But, by simple fact of the fallen existence, man cannot pray unceasingly. So the saints intercede on our behalf. It's no big deal. Mother Mary interceded on behalf of those at the party where she admonished Jesus to turn water into wine. So why all the fuss about asking others to pray for me and with me?

This part caught my eye- I hope to respond to the rest later when I have time^{see last paragraph}. The second half of this paragraph does somewhat explain the practice, but why pray to specific saints? Aren't there so many people out there who have done good and holy deeds just like the saints but simply haven't been recognized? Would they be saints as well, or do they have to be popular enough for the Church to recognize them? And why even bother to venerate one saint, when you can do so to all at once if it's what you believe in?

Now, the most worrying part of this section of your response to me is the part where all Christians are apparently required to pray incessantly. I have never heard of such a thing- unless you mean that all Christians are expected to be eternally grateful, which I can certainly see in the Bible. Adam and Eve had the spare time to wander Eden and name everything before they fell, meaning that they did more than simply pray to God every moment of every day. Jesus himself ate food, slept, and argued with people both as a child and as an adult, and was not recorded
Also, this is worrying to me personally. If that's all there is in Heaven, I'd rather not; being an Ice Toa-Transformer-Utahraptor-Daskoxyani spacecraft shapeshifter exploring all of Creation would be far more interesting for me personally. Unless, of course, I am immersed in an endless climactic orgasm and flying about in euphoria. With that, I'd probably love participating in unceasing praise of the Father.

As I think about all this, and discuss it all with you, I'm beginning to think that maybe your quality of being a "dick" (as you said earlier in this thread) may be because you have an extremely narrow and slightly egotistical view of Christianity, for what is the essence of being a Christian?
Accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, along with belief in the Holy Trinity.
No Muslim, no Jew, no follower of any religion I know of (save for some small factions of religions close to Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox or Catholic Christianity) believes in this. Feel free to bask in the possibility that the Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox Churches might be the true Church, but also recognize (and keep a bucket nearby as you might feel nauseous) that it is also possible that all of the churches- Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, and Roman Catholic- might be part of the Church Jesus founded. Think of Christianity as a tree, and while there are offshoots that you may consider "undesirable" or even weeds, it all comes from the same root. I've decided that this debate is getting tiring and rather circular, and that continuing to debate this is not the best use of my time. I hope you've at least somewhat enjoyed it, and you may want to rinse your mouth if you did indeed puke. Best of wishes.

[Distruzio]

Because we have things to do. Heaven is, according to Christianity, a state of being wherein one is overcome with the desire and will to pray unceasingly. All Christians are called to do this - pray unceasingly. But, by simple fact of the fallen existence, man cannot pray unceasingly. So the saints intercede on our behalf. It's no big deal. Mother Mary interceded on behalf of those at the party where she admonished Jesus to turn water into wine. So why all the fuss about asking others to pray for me and with me?

This part caught my eye- I hope to respond to the rest later when I have time^{see last paragraph}. The second half of this paragraph does somewhat explain the practice, but why pray to specific saints? Aren't there so many people out there who have done good and holy deeds just like the saints but simply haven't been recognized?

All are saints according to Christianity. It's just that, in the Catholic Church, the superheroes among saints get extra credit. In Orthodoxy, however, all are venerated as saints.

Would they be saints as well, or do they have to be popular enough for the Church to recognize them? And why even bother to venerate one saint, when you can do so to all at once if it's what you believe in?

*shrug* For peace of mind, maybe? If you don't want to pray to saints, then don't. I've explained the why.

Now, the most worrying part of this section of your response to me is the part where all Christians are apparently required to pray incessantly. I have never heard of such a thing- unless you mean that all Christians are expected to be eternally grateful, which I can certainly see in the Bible.

Not "required." Called. As in, "you know... you guys would do well to do this. It'd help you live a Christ-like life. Kinda like that 'go forth and sin no more' thing. Yeah. Pray all the time and don't sin." No one can do it. No one is expected to do it. Everyone is encouraged to do it as best they can - saints can help.

Adam and Eve had the spare time to wander Eden and name everything before they fell, meaning that they did more than simply pray to God every moment of every day. Jesus himself ate food, slept, and argued with people both as a child and as an adult, and was not recorded
Also, this is worrying to me personally. If that's all there is in Heaven, I'd rather not; being an Ice Toa-Transformer-Utahraptor-Daskoxyani spacecraft shapeshifter exploring all of Creation would be far more interesting for me personally. Unless, of course, I am immersed in an endless climactic orgasm and flying about in euphoria. With that, I'd probably love participating in unceasing praise of the Father.

That sounds lovely but, unfortunately, that's not the image of heaven painted for Christians so... maybe it'd be different for you? Don't know, honestly. Personally, I don't worry about heaven or hell. Theologically speaking, Jesus will figure it out. Practically speaking, *shrug*.

As I think about all this, and discuss it all with you, I'm beginning to think that maybe your quality of being a "dick" (as you said earlier in this thread) may be because you have an extremely narrow and slightly egotistical view of Christianity, for what is the essence of being a Christian?
Accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, along with belief in the Holy Trinity.

That's the struggle I'm working with.

No Muslim, no Jew, no follower of any religion I know of (save for some small factions of religions close to Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox or Catholic Christianity) believes in this. Feel free to bask in the possibility that the Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox Churches might be the true Church, but also recognize (and keep a bucket nearby as you might feel nauseous) that it is also possible that all of the churches- Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox, and Roman Catholic- might be part of the Church Jesus founded. Think of Christianity as a tree, and while there are offshoots that you may consider "undesirable" or even weeds, it all comes from the same root. I've decided that this debate is getting tiring and rather circular, and that continuing to debate this is not the best use of my time. I hope you've at least somewhat enjoyed it, and you may want to rinse your mouth if you did indeed puke. Best of wishes.

Fair enough. Thanks. It really did help.

[Distruzio]

Protestantism is, in point of fact, Christianity.

I made the link.

[Shaggai]

Protestantism is, in point of fact, Christianity.

I made the link.

Congratulations, I guess?

[The Union of the West]

Protestantism is, in point of fact, Christianity.

I made the link.

What convinced you?

[Todlichebujoku]

Fair enough. Thanks. It really did help.

Glad to be of aid.

[Distruzio]

Protestantism is, in point of fact, Christianity.

I made the link.

What convinced you?

Casting a parallel with American Politics. The GOP/Tea Party (especially the Tea Party) are constitutional literalists or, in other words, bibliolators. Just as the sola scripturist believes that "all I need [to be a good Christian] is my Bible," the GOP believes that all we need (to be a good America) is strict adherence to the Constitution. No interpretation. No allowance for as needed innovation. And just as the Protestants were, and are, willing to accept incredible social and cultural distortions in order to perpetuate this interpretation, the GOP is willing to plunge America into an unfathomably dangerous cascade of... well bullshit in order to see the "good" America come into existence. These people ignore the very real fact that the government (well, its ancestors) guided the ratification of the constitution (the Church created the Bible) and that the government yet maintains the structure foreseen and created by the founders (the Church yet exists as the apostles and their disciples fashioned it). Is this any different from what Protestants argue regarding the Bible and the Church?

Furthermore, in the same breath the GOP venerates the founders - by appealing to their good works regarding the Constitution and founding of the nation - while dismissing the value of the founders utterly by insisting that the founders creation (the US Constitution and the government defined within) was not strong enough to stand the test of time (thus we need to turn back the clock on constitutional interpretation to the point where interpretation no longer exists) and therefore invalidate the founders entirely. So, too, does the Protestant regarding the Church: in the same breathe the Protestant venerates Christ - by appealing to His good news regarding the New Testament and the founding of the Faith - while dismissing the value of Christ utterly by insisting that Christs creation (the Church) was not strong enough to stand the test of time (thus we need to turn back the clock on Biblical interpretation to the point where interpretation no longer exists) and therefore invalidate the value of Christ's words or works entirely.

In fact, the GOP seems so far removed from reality that one struggles to identify individual members by anything other than what must be a caricature.... we hope. The same can be said about Protestantism.

But through all of this, no one doubts that the GOPer is an American. Misled and perhaps holding inappropriate and dangerous beliefs but American nonetheless. Why should I draw so stark a distinction for the Protestant who follows the same logical premise of the GOP but exempt the GOP? If the GOP is American, then the Protestant must be Christian... right?

[New Edom]

I think that the problem with your premise is that you seem to believe that Protestantism automatically means that people are ignorant of the history of the Church, and that they just casually discount apostolic authority. You don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that on the part of say Lutherans by way of example that there is a different interpretation of apostolic authority. Furthermore, you seem to be discounting the conclusions of the Council of Nicea.

The very fact that between Eastern and Western churches during the church councils of the Roman Empire period there was controversy over issues of authority suggests strongly that these were decisions made by men based upon the politics and difficulties of the time, and not per se agreed upon universal truths regarding authority within the body of Christ suggests that it is open to debate.

[United Prefectures of Appia]

If one was truly a genuine Christian, they wouldn't recognize all these 'official' denominations to begin with, let alone an established religion.

[Lalaki]

Protestantism is, in point of fact, Christianity.

I made the link.

The OP has spoken!

[Distruzio]

If one was truly a genuine Christian, they wouldn't recognize all these 'official' denominations to begin with, let alone an established religion.

How do you figure?

[United Prefectures of Appia]

If one was truly a genuine Christian, they wouldn't recognize all these 'official' denominations to begin with, let alone an established religion.

How do you figure?

Christianity was never meant to be a sophisticate religion in the first place. It was meant to be a simple but a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ and to live the way based on his teachings alone. Unfortunately, had Constantine I left Christianity in its pure and simple form instead of a religious institution, the world wouldn't have had to suffer two thousand years of shit storm on a global scale. No good ever came from established denominations.

[Hurdegaryp]

How do you figure?

Christianity was never meant to be a sophisticate religion in the first place. It was meant to be a simple but a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ and to live the way based on his teachings alone. Unfortunately, had Constantine I left Christianity in its pure and simple form instead of a religious institution, the world wouldn't have had to suffer two thousand years of shit storm on a global scale. No good ever came from established denominations.

It was inevitable. Any spiritual movement that picks up enough speed becomes an established denomination. We humans like to get things organized, with proper guidelines, institutions and bureaucracy.

[Constantinopolis]

Christianity was never meant to be a sophisticate religion in the first place. It was meant to be a simple but a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ and to live the way based on his teachings alone.

Cool story. Got any evidence of that?

Because, you know, all the records we actually have of ancient Christian communities show that those communities were intensely concerned with establishing correct theology - indeed, they seem to have spent a lot of their energy debating minute theological points with each other - and had a clearly defined organizational structure involving bishops, priests, and deacons.

Christianity was never something other than an organized religion. It certainly couldn't have survived persecution if it wasn't organized. You know what kinds of groups are the most effective at surviving repression? Those with strict internal discipline. Early Christianity came with oaths of secrecy, some of which survive to this day.

"Of Your Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant. For I will not speak of Your mysteries to Your enemies, neither like Judas will I give You a kiss, but like the thief will I confess You. Remember me, O Lord, in Your Kingdom!"

[Tarsonis Survivors]

How do you figure?

Christianity was never meant to be a sophisticate religion in the first place. It was meant to be a simple but a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ and to live the way based on his teachings alone. Unfortunately, had Constantine I left Christianity in its pure and simple form instead of a religious institution, the world wouldn't have had to suffer two thousand years of shit storm on a global scale. No good ever came from established denominations.

Well this is utter bullshit, Christ's own disciples had conferences where they hashed out important theological points of their religion.

[Benuty]

Christianity was never meant to be a sophisticate religion in the first place. It was meant to be a simple but a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ and to live the way based on his teachings alone. Unfortunately, had Constantine I left Christianity in its pure and simple form instead of a religious institution, the world wouldn't have had to suffer two thousand years of shit storm on a global scale. No good ever came from established denominations.

Well this is utter bullshit, Christ's own disciples had conferences where they hashed out important theological points of their religion.

Well disciples of a heterorthodox sect anyway .