Protestantism might just be Christianity

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I re-read it; I still don't see it.

"The Grace that perpetuates and safeguards the Church?"

Well, yes, but The Grace of God in Protestant teachings is not the same as safeguarding the Church as in "The Vatican"; Protestants believe in that The Grace perpetuates and safeguards the Church, but the Church for Protestants is people, not the buildings and not the institution of a denomination.

[Tmutarakhan]

Based on your exclusionary and specious definition of Christianity.

Then we agree.

But he speaks English, not Distruzian, and therefore will continue to call them Christians.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

"Historical Facts" and "Theological Underpinnings of the Church" is simply your way of saying "it does not adhere to my particular set of Dogma, therefore it is not Christianity", just as the Pharisees rejected Jesus based upon empty dogmatism.

Didn't Jesus admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture? Isn't that what the Protestants do?

Err no.

[Distruzio]

"The Grace that perpetuates and safeguards the Church?"

Well, yes, but The Grace of God in Protestant teachings is not the same as safeguarding the Church as in "The Vatican"; Protestants believe in that The Grace perpetuates and safeguards the Church, but the Church for Protestants is people, not the buildings and not the institution of a denomination.

Indeed. On that we agree. Thus, for the Protestant, the Church is something spiritual and ephemeral which, if you recall, kind of flies in the face of what Jesus said - that the Church was physically established by Him.

[Distruzio]

Didn't Jesus admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture? Isn't that what the Protestants do?

Err no.

To which question?

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

"Historical Facts" and "Theological Underpinnings of the Church" is simply your way of saying "it does not adhere to my particular set of Dogma, therefore it is not Christianity", just as the Pharisees rejected Jesus based upon empty dogmatism.

Didn't Jesus admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture? Isn't that what the Protestants do?

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Well, yes, but The Grace of God in Protestant teachings is not the same as safeguarding the Church as in "The Vatican"; Protestants believe in that The Grace perpetuates and safeguards the Church, but the Church for Protestants is people, not the buildings and not the institution of a denomination.

Indeed. On that we agree. Thus, for the Protestant, the Church is something spiritual and ephemeral which, if you recall, kind of flies in the face of what Jesus said - that the Church was physically established by Him.

If the Church was physically established by him then the seat of our Faith should be Israel in its entirety, not the Vatican.

Protestant doctrine interprets Jesus' establishment of the Church as giving Peter the spiritual foundation to establish the Church, not the physical authority to do so.

[Tmutarakhan]

Protestantism is not Christianity -> this is according to my definition of Christianity -> other definitions which allows for Protestanism to coexist with Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Anglo-Catholicism are just simply wishy washy and not valid definitions -> therefore Protestantism is not Christianity.

Would you mind explaining how that is what I've said?

As I've said, multiple times, Protestantism is not Christianity because it denies existence of the historical facts and theological underpinnings of the Church. I'm not making up a definition of Christianity to do this.

Of course you are. The definition of Christianity used by other people has no reference to whether they accept the factual claims or theological underpinnings of your particular sect. A Christian is one who believes in Christ.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Well, yes, but The Grace of God in Protestant teachings is not the same as safeguarding the Church as in "The Vatican"; Protestants believe in that The Grace perpetuates and safeguards the Church, but the Church for Protestants is people, not the buildings and not the institution of a denomination.

Indeed. On that we agree. Thus, for the Protestant, the Church is something spiritual and ephemeral which, if you recall, kind of flies in the face of what Jesus said - that the Church was physically established by Him.

He literally built a Church atop St. Peter.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Err no.

To which question?

The first one. Jesus did not admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture - he actually admonished them because they were too stuck up and radical (as in trying too hard to follow) in how they interpreted Mosaic law to the point even themselves couldn't follow it, IIRC.

[Distruzio]

Indeed. On that we agree. Thus, for the Protestant, the Church is something spiritual and ephemeral which, if you recall, kind of flies in the face of what Jesus said - that the Church was physically established by Him.

He literally built a Church atop St. Peter.

Didn't you know?

Would you mind explaining how that is what I've said?

As I've said, multiple times, Protestantism is not Christianity because it denies existence of the historical facts and theological underpinnings of the Church. I'm not making up a definition of Christianity to do this.

Of course you are. The definition of Christianity used by other people has no reference to whether they accept the factual claims or theological underpinnings of your particular sect. A Christian is one who believes in Christ.

Then so are Muslims, atheists, Jews, Mormons, and Unitarian Universalists, to name a few.

[Menassa]

To which question?

The first one. Jesus did not admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture - he actually admonished them because they were too stuck up and radical in how they interpreted Mosaic law to the point even themselves couldn't follow it, IIRC.

Jesus recognized the tradition of the Pharisees and supported that tradition himself, he did however dislike the actions that the Pharisees took in their steps of keeping the tradition.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

He literally built a Church atop St. Peter.

Didn't you know?

Of course you are. The definition of Christianity used by other people has no reference to whether they accept the factual claims or theological underpinnings of your particular sect. A Christian is one who believes in Christ.

Then so are Muslims, atheists, Jews, Mormons, and Unitarian Universalists, to name a few.

We've been over this, Jews, Atheists, Unitarian Universalits, etc. don't believe that Jesus is "the Christ", Moslems maybe, but they don't believe that Jesus was divine, begotten not made, etc.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The first one. Jesus did not admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture - he actually admonished them because they were too stuck up and radical in how they interpreted Mosaic law to the point even themselves couldn't follow it, IIRC.

Jesus recognized the tradition of the Pharisees and supported that tradition himself, he did however dislike the actions that the Pharisees took in their steps of keeping the tradition.

You said what I wanted to say with less obscure language

[Distruzio]

Indeed. On that we agree. Thus, for the Protestant, the Church is something spiritual and ephemeral which, if you recall, kind of flies in the face of what Jesus said - that the Church was physically established by Him.

If the Church was physically established by him then the seat of our Faith should be Israel in its entirety, not the Vatican.

He didn't physically establish a King of the Christian Church aside from Him, so I agree.... sort of. Being Orthodox, I reject papal assertions of supremacy - but I don't reject papal assertions of authority.

Protestant doctrine interprets Jesus' establishment of the Church as giving Peter the spiritual foundation to establish the Church, not the physical authority to do so.

I'm aware. Hence my issue.

Didn't Jesus admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture? Isn't that what the Protestants do?

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Indeed. Which the Church has interpreted to affirm her position in the Christian life.

[Menassa]

Jesus recognized the tradition of the Pharisees and supported that tradition himself, he did however dislike the actions that the Pharisees took in their steps of keeping the tradition.

You said what I wanted to say with less obscure language

Well maybe that's because I'm a Pharisee...

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

The first one. Jesus did not admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture - he actually admonished them because they were too stuck up and radical in how they interpreted Mosaic law to the point even themselves couldn't follow it, IIRC.

Jesus recognized the tradition of the Pharisees and supported that tradition himself, he did however dislike the actions that the Pharisees took in their steps of keeping the tradition.

Jesus also picked corn on the Sabbath.

[Distruzio]

To which question?

The first one. Jesus did not admonish the Pharisees for endorsing innovations to tradition and scripture - he actually admonished them because they were too stuck up and radical (as in trying too hard to follow) in how they interpreted Mosaic law to the point even themselves couldn't follow it, IIRC.

Now theres a good point.

[Menassa]

Jesus recognized the tradition of the Pharisees and supported that tradition himself, he did however dislike the actions that the Pharisees took in their steps of keeping the tradition.

Jesus also picked corn on the Sabbath.

The bastard.

[Benuty]

Jesus recognized the tradition of the Pharisees and supported that tradition himself, he did however dislike the actions that the Pharisees took in their steps of keeping the tradition.

Jesus also picked corn on the Sabbath.

I find them having maize kind of improbable at the time lol.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Indeed. Which the Church has interpreted to affirm her position in the Christian life.

Protestantism simply rejects the Church of dead letters, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, etc., for the Spirit.

[Tmutarakhan]

Indeed. On that we agree. Thus, for the Protestant, the Church is something spiritual and ephemeral which, if you recall, kind of flies in the face of what Jesus said - that the Church was physically established by Him.

He literally built a Church atop St. Peter.

That must have been very painful for Pete.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Jesus also picked corn on the Sabbath.

I find them having maize kind of improbable at the time lol.

They were picking up some sort of grain though, if we go by the scripture.

[Distruzio]

Didn't you know?



Then so are Muslims, atheists, Jews, Mormons, and Unitarian Universalists, to name a few.

We've been over this, Jews, Atheists, Unitarian Universalits, etc. don't believe that Jesus is "the Christ", Moslems maybe, but they don't believe that Jesus was divine, begotten not made, etc.

Indeed. We have. You're definition, and the defintion offered by Tmut, is ridiculous because it flies in the face of common sense. If belief in Jesus is all that is needed, the common sense dictates that any who believe in Jesus are Christian.

If Protestants believe that Jesus is the Christ, which they should, then they should also believe that, as the Christ, He established the Church - but they either call Jesus a liar or don't believe He kept His word regarding the Church. Ergo, Protestants cannot, honestly, be Christian.

[Tmutarakhan]

Jesus also picked corn on the Sabbath.

I find them having maize kind of improbable at the time lol.

The word "corn" referred to grains of all kinds for thousands of years before it meant maize.