Protestantism might just be Christianity

[Nationalist State of Knox]

If you regard all heretics as non-Christians, then surely Catholics aren't Christian either?

Dis, we both know that the differences between Catholic and Orthodox dogma extend far beyond the issue of Papal Primacy. Where do you draw the line on who's a heretic and who isn't, and why?

[Mesrane]

This seems very "no true Scotsman"-ish. They are Christian if they believe that Jesus Christ is their lord and saviour, simple as that. Unless you want to call them something stupid like "Jesusites"?

Yup that sums it up. Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant. All Christian.

[Lalaki]

All Protestant denominations have their own take on Christianity. I understand arguments about apostolic succession and the history of Christianity. However, Catholic Christians and Orthodox Christians have different interpretations of these very things. Under your framework, it would make sense to only endorse one church over all, as only one approach can be 100 percent correct. And that is something I wouldn't want to do.

[Norstal]

If you regard all heretics as non-Christians, then surely Catholics aren't Christian either?

Dis, we both know that the differences between Catholic and Orthodox dogma extend far beyond the issue of Papal Primacy. Where do you draw the line on who's a heretic and who isn't, and why?

Catholics believe in apostolic succession and most of the old Christian traditions like Dis said.

[Allet Klar Chefs]

The reality is that that "Pope guy" is a very real authority.

He's as real an authority as you let him be.

Protestants are not into that.

[Distruzio]

An entire thread based on a logical fallacy...
Good job.

Feel free to elaborate? Point out where I say that Protestants aren't real Christians. I'm saying they aren't firetrucks. If you want to point at a fallacy, you'll have to point to the correct one.

[Murkwood]

If you regard all heretics as non-Christians, then surely Catholics aren't Christian either?

Dis, we both know that the differences between Catholic and Orthodox dogma extend far beyond the issue of Papal Primacy. Where do you draw the line on who's a heretic and who isn't, and why?

Meh, there isn't that much of a difference when you get down to it.

[Lalaki]

If you regard all heretics as non-Christians, then surely Catholics aren't Christian either?

Dis, we both know that the differences between Catholic and Orthodox dogma extend far beyond the issue of Papal Primacy. Where do you draw the line on who's a heretic and who isn't, and why?

Catholics believe in apostolic succession and most of the old Christian traditions like Dis said.

Emphasis on most. Where would we draw the line under this framework?

[Distruzio]

Did you read at least one paragraph of the OP or are you just reading the title and immediately reacting?

The Orthodox Church is not the true church.

Did I suggest it was? Of course I didn't. I, quite clearly, stated that the Orthodox Church, along with those mentioned before, is part of the actual physical entity that has existed for 2000 years.

[Murkwood]

The Orthodox Church is not the true church.

Did I suggest it was? Of course I didn't. I, quite clearly, stated that the Orthodox Church, along with those mentioned before, is part of the actual physical entity that has existed for 2000 years.

I think Catholics have a better claim to that title...

[Evil Grantica]

First, I am a protestant Christian, and I have similar concerns about Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians as you have about me.

Here's why: The Catholic Church (for instance) has changed its traditions. Some things, such as indulgences and the execution of heretics, it has fortunately left behind. However, this means that the authority of the Popes contradicts. We also know that some popes (such as the Borgias) were pretty nasty and unchristian. So tradition fails us as tradition changes. The authority of men on earth to speak God's word turns out to be corruptible, and unlike the prophets of old, there's no handy rule about stoning those who get prophecies wrong (nor should there be).

What doesn't change though? The bible. It stays constant. But aha! What translation to choose? Well, the bible as it was originally written stays constant. Sadly, there are some problems with translating and even transcribing 2-4 thousand year old documents written in ancient languages. Sometimes numbers don't add up (which is not surprising, considering how rough Hebrew is when it comes to numbers). So the bibles we should use are the bibles that provide the most accurate translations. At best, we'd read it in the original languages.

The thing is that some church traditions are correct (such as the Trinity), and I know this to be so because the bible makes many statements that back up this position. Other practices, like praying to saints or Mary, aren't so easily backed up by Scripture. In fact, the bible is pretty clear about who we should be praying to, and that's God.

As for putting ourselves above God or His authority for believing in the bible, I disagree. To put a man above the bible seems even more dangerous. To add to the bible seems even more dangerous. If anything, it takes humility to submit to the Word of God however little we understand it and whether or not we agree with it. I don't claim to know it all for sure. I just claim to know the important bits because the bible (which I believe is true for a variety of reasons) says so.

So what about Christians who we think have it wrong (in our infinite wisdom)? Well, you don't have to have perfect theology to be a Christian. If you do, we're all in big trouble. There are some (non-exhaustive) important things though:

- One God.
- Jesus is God in the Flesh (oh, here we get into Trinity stuff...)
- People are sinful, God is not
- Jesus was born of a virgin
- Jesus died on the cross
- Jesus rose from the dead three days later
- His sacrifice provides us the only way we can be saved from our sins
- All of this in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, thus completing a thread begun at Adam

Paul was once asked by a jailer in Acts 16, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Paul answered, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

Putting our trust in Jesus Christ the Son of God is all it really takes. The rest is just coming to a fuller, more wonderful relationship with God.

[Neutraligon]

Once you all have figured out a consistent definition of Christian come tell me please, it is kinda hard keeping track.

[Tlik]

They recognize Jesus as the Lord. That makes them Christian.

Protestants do not, however, recognize Jesus as Lord. Not the way historical Christianity has always done.

As a Protestant, in what way do we not recognise Jesus as Lord? Jesus is the most important part of our faith. And if you're going to go on about bibliolatry, then I'd argue that no Protestant believes that the Bible died to save their sins, nor do they believe that a Bible brought the universe into being.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

If you regard all heretics as non-Christians, then surely Catholics aren't Christian either?

Dis, we both know that the differences between Catholic and Orthodox dogma extend far beyond the issue of Papal Primacy. Where do you draw the line on who's a heretic and who isn't, and why?

Catholics believe in apostolic succession and most of the old Christian traditions like Dis said.

Yeah, but it seems almost too selective.

As in, Catholics are Christians because they believe in X and Y but not necessarily Z, but for some reason Protestants aren't Christians because they only adhere to X.

Roman Catholics aren't exactly the perfect representation of early Christianity.

[Murkwood]

All Christian churches that recognize Jesus as the Savior are Christian.

Not really. For me, at least, a Christian is one who believes in the Apostles Creed.

[Distruzio]

With the exception of Anglo-Catholicism (which started as a political dispute between England and Rome), Protestantism was a rebellion against Christian theology and biblical history 1500 years old at the time. The Protestant rejects Peter and the other Apostles but accepts Christ. How can one be a Christian by doing this? A Protestant, therefore, is no mere schismatic - they are a heretic. They are as much a heretic against Christianity as the Christian is a heretic against Judaism.

That's more than a bit of an oversimplification of the Protestant Reformation. There was as much secular politics involved in the wars and upheavals associated with the Reformation as there was in the English Reformation, and yet you bend over backwards to try and wave away the English Reformation as being superficial and 'political'. That suggests that you're more interested in finding a reason to accept the Anglicans (whose aesthetics you agree with) as Christians and find the rest of Protestants (whose aesthetics you don't like) not Christians than you are in actually having a historically-informed viewpoint.

... there might be some truth that I like the aesthetics of the Anglo-Catholics but you're raising a non sequitur, here. I didn't delve into the ins and outs of why I accept Anglo-Catholics but reject other Protestants because that wasn't the subject. If that's something you're interested in, you could just ask. The OP was clearly about what I said.

[Czervenika]

I'm personally not fond of Protestantism despite respecting most other sects of Christianity. Why? They come across as very fanatical and more anti-science than other sects. They also seem to depict Jesus as some right wing capitalist who doesn't give a shit about the poor. That is definitely the opposite of the impression I get from the man's teachings; he was a compassionate caring man and arguably one of the first socialists(at least that seems to be a popular stance within some sections of the Catholic church). Feel free to take my views with a grain of salt though since I'm an atheist, not a Christian.

[Distruzio]

What are those things you worship in, then?

Churches. What, do Catholics not have places of worship? Besides, you do know that there are Protestant congregations that assemble in school buildings as well, right?

Indeed. But Protestant buildings are not administered by the collegiate of Bishops. Therefore, Protestant buildings are places of bibliolatry.

[Norstal]

Catholics believe in apostolic succession and most of the old Christian traditions like Dis said.

Emphasis on most. Where would we draw the line under this framework?

That's up to Dis. I understand where he's coming from. If a bunch of random foreigners started converting to Buddhism and outnumber the original adherents, then changing the fundamentals of the religion into something undesirable, I would get miffed.

The only thing that justifies such a thing is might makes right. Which is in itself, a fallacy as well.

[Distruzio]

This seems very "no true Scotsman"-ish. They are Christian if they believe that Jesus Christ is their lord and saviour, simple as that. Unless you want to call them something stupid like "Jesusites"?

Its as "no true scotsman" as pointing out that a patrol car is not an ambulance. They both may be emergency response vehicles, but one is not the other.

[New Edom]

The Niceness Creed is what defines Christianity. Apostolic Succession can be interpreted in different ways. Sola Scriptura could be said to be idolatry, but it is argued by some Protestants that veneration of the authority of Patriarchs or Popes is as well.

The Niceness Creed is the best way to have peace about ths, though sadly over the centuries it has rarely worked.

[Lalaki]

I'm personally not fond of Protestantism despite respecting most other sects of Christianity. Why? They come across as very fanatical and more anti-science than other sects. They also seem to depict Jesus as some right wing capitalist who doesn't give a shit about the poor. That is definitely the opposite of the impression I get from the man's teachings; he was a compassionate caring man and arguably one of the first socialists(at least that seems to be a popular stance within some sections of the Catholic church). Feel free to take my views with a grain of salt though since I'm an atheist, not a Christian.

There are many Protestant churches that have a strong tradition of helping the poor. Look at Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He was a minister.

[Nuevo Meshiko]

There mere title of this thread made me lol. But I took a moment to read the OP.

It was us who handed down the Creed and established what a Christian is to believe and how a Christian is to believe in order to avoid heresy against the Faith and Word.

Really, that was you? So you admit it wasn't Jesus who did that, nor God. Also, therefore you get to judge who's heretic? Not God?

How very Christian of you.

[Distruzio]

If you regard all heretics as non-Christians, then surely Catholics aren't Christian either?

Dis, we both know that the differences between Catholic and Orthodox dogma extend far beyond the issue of Papal Primacy. Where do you draw the line on who's a heretic and who isn't, and why?

The Catholics are schismatic - not heretical. Certain of their newer dogmas broach the threshold between schism and heresy, certainly. But I don't yet consider the Catholic Church too far over that threshold considering the very real attempts at ecumenism between the Papacy and our own Patriarchs.

[Tlik]

Once you all have figured out a consistent definition of Christian come tell me please, it is kinda hard keeping track.

A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus, although they may only believe him to be figurative, who was either a man or God or both who according to story died and then may have been raised back to life in order to save the human race from sin that may or may not be inherent in all people.

But we all hate gays and believe that the Earth was created in seven days. Or at least, so the internet tells me...

More seriously, Christians - by-and-large - don't hate gays and most have views of creation that at least try to reconcile themselves with science rather than blindly rejecting it. That bit was completely a joke. And most branches would assert that someone who doesn't accept both the humanity and divinity of Jesus isn't a Christian, and that he was an entirely real existing character. Please no-one kill me for failing to be funny!