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Protestantism might just be Christianity

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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:38 pm

Archegnum wrote:I have to say that I am no expert on history, biblical or otherwise. However, from what I have heard and learned, the Protestant movement was a breakaway from the Roman Catholic Church (well, dur). Their reason (I mean true Protestants, not those who did it for convenience like Henry VIII) I believe, was that they believed that the Pope and his Bishops, Abbots etc had been given more power than what Christ had commanded. Apparently it had something to do with the increase in Bibles translated into Europeans native languages rather than Latin, bringing access to the Word to everyone. Some people (e.g. Martin Luther), when reading these translated Bibles, realized that the Pope had been introducing new laws etc into Christianity that were not stated in Scripture, which suggested that the Pope himself was not following the very verse you quoted


Kindasorta. Protestantism didn't start as a revolt against Catholicism. It was a reformist movement that targeted what it saw as systemic problems within the Church's administration - things like the sale of indulgences, which was a doctrine that stated that certain types of sins could be absolved in part through the giving of alms to the church, and which fed the growth of the Church into one of the richest organizations in Europe. Had the problems that Luther and others brought up been addressed by the Church, it's likely that the Reformation would have ended there.

Unfortunately the Church acted rather heavy-handedly and only drove more discontent, and the resulting backlash lit a political powderkeg that had been brewing for at least a century between (broadly speaking) the urbanized middle classes of the north of Germany (who were annoyed at economic inbalances between the south and the north of the Holy Roman Empire) and the more traditionally-oriented aristocracy of the south (who believed in and were invested in the traditional power structure of the Empire), with a number of popular peasant revolts erupting in the middle of the dispute. Luther stuck to his reformist position throughout all of this, but that lead to a schism within the movement between those who sought to reform the Church and those who believed in more radical solutions, including the dismantlement of the existing church hierarchy. The Lutherans and Anglicans, broadly speaking, are descended from the former, while groups like the Anabaptists, Baptists, Quakers and a number of other sects are descended from the latter.

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Postby Death Metal » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:53 pm

Distruzio wrote: Point out where I say that Protestants aren't real Christians.


...It's in the title of your fucking topic. Trying to weasel out of the fact that your entire argument is based on an appeal to ideological purity only hurts what little credibility you have.
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Postby Mesrane » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:58 pm

Death Metal wrote:
Distruzio wrote: Point out where I say that Protestants aren't real Christians.


...It's in the title of your fucking topic. Trying to weasel out of the fact that your entire argument is based on an appeal to ideological purity only hurts what little credibility you have.

"Evil Protestants! How dare they!"

That is the subtext to your title, and all your posts since. Saying Protestants aren't real Christians is virtually identical to saying they aren't Christians at all.
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Conkerials
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Postby Conkerials » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:01 pm

Mesrane wrote:
Death Metal wrote:
...It's in the title of your fucking topic. Trying to weasel out of the fact that your entire argument is based on an appeal to ideological purity only hurts what little credibility you have.

"Evil Protestants! How dare they!"

That is the subtext to your title, and all your posts since. Saying Protestants aren't real Christians is virtually identical to saying they aren't Christians at all.

If they 'aren't really Christians' I call major No True Scotsman.
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Death Metal
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Postby Death Metal » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:04 pm

Mesrane wrote:
Death Metal wrote:
...It's in the title of your fucking topic. Trying to weasel out of the fact that your entire argument is based on an appeal to ideological purity only hurts what little credibility you have.

"Evil Protestants! How dare they!"

That is the subtext to your title, and all your posts since. Saying Protestants aren't real Christians is virtually identical to saying they aren't Christians at all.


Actually, it's more like his saying protestantism =/= Christianity means that protestants =/= Christians.

Christian is someone who worships Christ, follows his teachings, and believes in the Abrahamic mythos.

If you want to argue protestants aren't good Christians, whatever. Blanket denying that they are Christians just because they don't believe in the infallibility of your magic wizard-king? That's a NTS.
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Ayreonia
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Postby Ayreonia » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:04 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:
Ayreonia wrote:I've no interest in getting into a semantics debate, sorry. I'm sure I don't really need to explain what I meant.


People who have "no interest in getting into a semantics debate" are usually the people who don't know what they are talking about.

Oh, for fuck's sake. How about the people who'd rather deconstruct the way a poster writes his argument, rather than the argument itself? That's a sure sign of knowing their shit, I'm sure.

However, since I'm a man who has faith in his fellow people, I'm willing to consider that you and Knox aren't doing this just to rile me up, but because you really don't understand what I'm trying to say. So here goes:

By "Protestant states," I obviously mean countries that are culturally or historically Protestant, and/or have a Protestant majority, not ones that have Protestantism as a state religion. If I would have meant that, I would have said that, but I didn't, because that's not my point. Comprende?

Now, unless you have further questions, can we please go back on topic and quit playing "tell Ayreonia what he means?" Because that got old back in grade school.
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Postby Benuty » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:08 pm

If only Marcion had become dominant then we wouldn't be having these issues. Instead we'd be having debates about non-Marcionism.
Last edited by Benuty on Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:09 pm

Death Metal wrote:
Mesrane wrote:"Evil Protestants! How dare they!"

That is the subtext to your title, and all your posts since. Saying Protestants aren't real Christians is virtually identical to saying they aren't Christians at all.


Actually, it's more like his saying protestantism =/= Christianity means that protestants =/= Christians.

Christian is someone who worships Christ, follows his teachings, and believes in the Abrahamic mythos.

If you want to argue protestants aren't good Christians, whatever. Blanket denying that they are Christians just because they don't believe in the infallibility of your magic wizard-king? That's a NTS.

What does Zeus have to do with this? :P.
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Postby Murkwood » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:10 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Murkwood wrote:I think Catholics have a better claim to that title...


;)

Their claim is as valid as ours.

Meh, I guess so.
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Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

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Conkerials
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Postby Conkerials » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:10 pm

Benuty wrote:
Death Metal wrote:
Actually, it's more like his saying protestantism =/= Christianity means that protestants =/= Christians.

Christian is someone who worships Christ, follows his teachings, and believes in the Abrahamic mythos.

If you want to argue protestants aren't good Christians, whatever. Blanket denying that they are Christians just because they don't believe in the infallibility of your magic wizard-king? That's a NTS.

What does Zeus have to do with this? :P.

You mean Jupiter? ;)
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South Pacific Republic
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Postby South Pacific Republic » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:11 pm

Hey, maybe if you guys weren't so greedy back in the 1500s you wouldn't have to deal with protestants

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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:11 pm

South Pacific Republic wrote:Hey, maybe if you guys weren't so greedy back in the 1500s you wouldn't have to deal with protestants

Blame the borgiate legacy, among other things.
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Postby The Union of the West » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:12 pm

Benuty wrote:
Death Metal wrote:
Actually, it's more like his saying protestantism =/= Christianity means that protestants =/= Christians.

Christian is someone who worships Christ, follows his teachings, and believes in the Abrahamic mythos.

If you want to argue protestants aren't good Christians, whatever. Blanket denying that they are Christians just because they don't believe in the infallibility of your magic wizard-king? That's a NTS.

What does Zeus have to do with this? :P.

Sounds more like Odin than Zeus, but that's beside the point.
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Murkwood
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Postby Murkwood » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:13 pm

Czervenika wrote:
Murkwood wrote:I disagree with the part about Socialism. I quote the Catholic Catechism:


Liberation theology: It's a thing.

But it goes against Catholic teaching. You can't be a Communist and a Catholic.
Last edited by Murkwood on Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:13 pm

Murkwood wrote:
Czervenika wrote:
Liberation theology: It's a thing.

But it goes against Catholic teaching.

Debatable.
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Postby Skappola » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:15 pm

This is as bad as protestants telling me that I'm part of a cult because I worship Mary. I can't believe I worshipped Mary for all these years as a goddess and didn't even know it (Sarcasm)
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Conkerials
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Postby Conkerials » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:15 pm

Skappola wrote:This is as bad as protestants telling me that I'm part of a cult because I worship Mary. I can't believe I worshipped Mary for all these years as a goddess and didn't even know it (Sarcasm)

Isn't worshipped not God heretical?

Edit: My mother used to tell me Catholics were misguided Christians because they worshipped Mary :lol2:
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Murkwood
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Postby Murkwood » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:16 pm

Benuty wrote:
Murkwood wrote:But it goes against Catholic teaching.

Debatable.

I quote the Catholic Catechism:

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with "communism" or "socialism." She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of "capitalism," individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

2403 The right to private property, acquired or received in a just way, does not do away with the original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind. The universal destination of goods remains primordial, even if the promotion of the common good requires respect for the right to private property and its exercise.


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c2a7.htm
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

Catholicism has the fullness of the splendor of truth: The Bible and the Church Fathers agree!

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Postby Kelmet » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:17 pm

Pretty sure all people who accept Christ as there savior is a christian
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:17 pm

Conkerials wrote:
Skappola wrote:This is as bad as protestants telling me that I'm part of a cult because I worship Mary. I can't believe I worshipped Mary for all these years as a goddess and didn't even know it (Sarcasm)

Isn't worshipped not God heretical?

Edit: My mother used to tell me Catholics were misguided Christians because they worshipped Mary :lol2:

To be fair plenty of people use to worship God's consort.
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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:21 pm

Barsovich wrote:
Czervenika wrote:I'm personally not fond of Protestantism despite respecting most other sects of Christianity. Why? They come across as very fanatical and more anti-science than other sects. They also seem to depict Jesus as some right wing capitalist who doesn't give a shit about the poor. That is definitely the opposite of the impression I get from the man's teachings; he was a compassionate caring man and arguably one of the first socialists(at least that seems to be a popular stance within some sections of the Catholic church). Feel free to take my views with a grain of salt though since I'm an atheist, not a Christian.


Protestantism are the least fanatical and the most pro science of the sects. It's Catholicism that is fanatical, and anti-science, and this appears throughout most of its history.


Actually, Protestantism is both the least and most fanatical and pro-science, since Protestantism is a myriad of various sects. Catholicism leans anti-science, but they are not as extreme as many radical protestant sects. However, there are plenty of moderate protestants, too.

Catholicism being anti-science is excessively common throughout history because they were in charge for a while. During the Reformation, Protestants did everything they got mad at Catholics for and more.
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:34 pm

Murkwood wrote:
Czervenika wrote:
Liberation theology: It's a thing.

But it goes against Catholic teaching. You can't be a Communist and a Catholic.


Pope Francis seems to be tolerant of it.

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Postby Czechanada » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:36 pm

Dyakovo wrote:An entire thread based on a logical fallacy...
Good job. :clap:


This actually isn't a No True Scotsman.
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Postby The Republic of Pantalleria » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:36 pm

At the end of the day, Protestantism are more revised and reformed versions of the Catholic Church, now prior to the death of Paul, the Christian Church had a similar if not exactly the same structure of Independence between each other. They also were taught that the Word of God (The Bible) was the most important source of authority laying down the fundamental teaching of the whole Christian World. Thus Protestants do obey Christ and the Holy Ghost but only in a less notable ceremonious and quite frankly less Pharasitical way than Catholics. Also you must remember that the Catholic World has experienced so many blunders in the last 500 years of stubbornness against reform that to this day, predominantly Catholic states are mostly economically or politically or even socially inferior to Protestant ones.
Examples include:
Predominantly Protestant:
The U.K.
The U.S.
Australia
Canada
Germany
Sweden
Norway
Finland
The Netherlands
Denmark
New Zealand
Iceland
Switzerland

Vs.
Predominantly Catholic:
Spain
Italy
France
Portugal
Poland
Brazil
Argentina
Mexico
The Philippines
Cuba(ish)
Malta(ish)
Colombia
Venezuela
Costa Rica
Guatemala
Ireland(the republic of)

Stating that Protestantism isn't Christianity is like stating to a Jew that they're not Jewish, Catholics on the other hand...
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Postby Threlizdun » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:37 pm

While Protestants do seem more prone to accept mistranslations of scripture, I don't see how doing anything other than accepting the teachings of the Christ as being necessary components to identify as Christian.
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