Neo-Conservatism: Bomb this thread, we have Oil

[Rexero]

Okay, your point being?

1. Democracy is peaceful.
2. Freedom is peaceful.
3. Violencistan is not free and not democratic.
4. Violencistan is not peaceful.
5. We must bomb, fight, or declare war against Violencistan to promote freedom and democracy.
6. We must bomb, fight, or declare war against Violencistan to promote peace.

Let peace be the absence of conflict.

If we are peaceful, we cannot fight. If we are not peaceful and then fight for democracy and freedom, democracy and freedom are not peaceful: if democracy and freedom are peaceful, we cannot fight to promote them.

Peace cannot be a reason to fight. Other reasons to fight, like self-defence, promote a return to conditions before fighting, which were peaceful, but none of these reasons are peace itself. If peace is sought, one surrenders.

[Geilinor]

Okay, your point being?

1. Democracy is peaceful.
2. Freedom is peaceful.
3. Violencistan is not free and not democratic.
4. Violencistan is not peaceful.
5. We must bomb, fight, or declare war against Violencistan to promote freedom and democracy.
6. We must bomb, fight, or declare war against Violencistan to promote peace.

How are democracy and peace peaceful if you have to fight for them?

[Arkolon]

1. Democracy is peaceful.
2. Freedom is peaceful.
3. Violencistan is not free and not democratic.
4. Violencistan is not peaceful.
5. We must bomb, fight, or declare war against Violencistan to promote freedom and democracy.
6. We must bomb, fight, or declare war against Violencistan to promote peace.

How are democracy and peace peaceful if you have to fight for them?

That's my point. I was trying to disprove Murkwood's logic of justified neoconservative intervention.

[The New Sea Territory]

1. Democracy is peaceful.
2. Freedom is peaceful.
3. Violencistan is not free and not democratic.
4. Violencistan is not peaceful.
5. We must bomb, fight, or declare war against Violencistan to promote freedom and democracy.
6. We must bomb, fight, or declare war against Violencistan to promote peace.

How are democracy and peace peaceful if you have to fight for them?

I think that's what he meant.

[Sommorragh]

While I would prefer a more nuanced approach (see Sam Pa, I believe the Financial Times wrote an excellent article on him) through the use of proxies, business, espionage and generally not sending large swathes of young American soldiers to die, I am a strong proponent of excercising influence within foreign circles for political and economic gain. The truth is these are the methods that greatly contributed to the economic prosperity of the United States. However, these methods have been replaced with wishy washy projects with unreasonable constraints and political oversight on the part of politicians looking to make a quick buck(USAID springs to mind).

That doesn't mean we have to fuck over anybody and everybody that happens to be living on a copper field, gold mine, copper-belt, e.t.c.... We could very well uplift them and create stable(ish) nations and societies (one only need look at the Chinese in Africa).

[Genivaria]

I believe that the world must be made safe for democracy, but the Neo-con method is....counter-productive at best.
Strong multilateralism and the notion of a Concert of Democracies is what should be pursued I think.

[Murkwood]

Neoconservatism is basically inverted Trotskyism, and the appellation itself was coined by an American Trotskyist condemning the large sections of the American socialist left who had taken up the vocation of being Cold Warriors, and supported Nixon over McGovern in 1972. It has since evolved considerably, but neoconservative foreign policy is still what happens when you take the Trotskyist program of "permanent revolution" and remove the revolution.

You get an endless crusade to impose liberal capitalism, by hook or by crook, on the rest of the world.

Point being?

[Murkwood]

Neoconservatism just doesn't work. It makes more enemies than allies.

We should cut defense spending to 2% of GDP.

So terror can run amok in the MidEast?

[Benuty]

I believe that the world must be made safe for democracy, but the Neo-con method is....counter-productive at best.
Strong multilateralism and the notion of a Concert of Democracies is what should be pursued I think.

Counter productive?

Hell it is neo-colonialism at most that's far more than just counter productive.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm an interventionist.
That makes people call me a neo-con sometimes.

[Benuty]

Neoconservatism just doesn't work. It makes more enemies than allies.

We should cut defense spending to 2% of GDP.

So terror can run amok in the MidEast?

Slippery slope, also who said that a percentage of the remaining budget wouldn't be used for curbing terrorism?

[Murkwood]

So terror can run amok in the MidEast?

Slippery slope, also who said that a percentage of the remaining budget wouldn't be used for curbing terrorism?

We couldn't do that with 2%!

[Benuty]

Slippery slope, also who said that a percentage of the remaining budget wouldn't be used for curbing terrorism?

We couldn't do that with 2%!

This is the United States we can certainly do a lot more than say...Canada could at 2%.

[Murkwood]

We couldn't do that with 2%!

This is the United States we can certainly do a lot more than say...Canada could at 2%.

Canada wouldn't do shit about terrorism if we didn't ask them to.

[Geilinor]

This is the United States we can certainly do a lot more than say...Canada could at 2%.

Canada wouldn't do shit about terrorism if we didn't ask them to.

That's because Canada didn't have 9/11.

[Benuty]

This is the United States we can certainly do a lot more than say...Canada could at 2%.

Canada wouldn't do shit about terrorism if we didn't ask them to.

Canada wouldn't do shit because its busy dealing with its people, and for the most part trying to play as part of the team not the leader.

[Murkwood]

Canada wouldn't do shit about terrorism if we didn't ask them to.

Canada wouldn't do shit because its busy dealing with its people, and for the most part trying to play as part of the team not the leader.

Someone has to lead the fight against terror.

[Benuty]

Canada wouldn't do shit because its busy dealing with its people, and for the most part trying to play as part of the team not the leader.

Someone has to lead the fight against terror.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAeDHBrcKWc

Yeah, but we could do a lot better rather than this.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Canada wouldn't do shit because its busy dealing with its people, and for the most part trying to play as part of the team not the leader.

Someone has to lead the fight against terror.

Neocons always have to have a bad guy to put leverage on everyone else to agree with their aggressive foreign policy.

It used to be the Nazis, then the Communists, now its those darned terrorizts.

Side question... did the Nazis and Communists every really go away? no, they dispersed, and they are everywhere.

Fearmongering only works for so long.

[Arkolon]

National defense, not national offense, mmk.

[Benuty]

National defense, not national offense, mmk.

If only.

[The New Sea Territory]

Canada wouldn't do shit because its busy dealing with its people, and for the most part trying to play as part of the team not the leader.

Someone has to lead the fight against terror.

Tell me then, why do we support terror? We have, historically and currently, funded and supported terrorists. For fuck's sake, this country was FOUNDED by terrorists!

[The New Sea Territory]

Neoconservatism just doesn't work. It makes more enemies than allies.

We should cut defense spending to 2% of GDP.

So terror can run amok in the MidEast?

It already does. We supported it's rise to power, since we funded the Mujahideen, the Shah and the Wahhabi groups in Saudi Arabia.

Which, in turn, made the Taliban take over Afghanistan, al-Qaeda being formed, Iran-Iraq Wars and the Iranian Nuclear Program, and 9/11, and the theocratic state of Saudi Arabia that kills any non-Muslim, homosexual and whips females that disobey, and ISIS.

When do you want to REALLY fight terrorists and stop making new ones?

[Pandeeria]

A big military budget is a really good way to increase government size.

Also, sometimes they're right, but usually wrong. And their social ideals really puts me off.

[Libertarian California]

Neoconservatism is an evil ideology with leftist roots that disguises itself with nationalist robes to get us involved in foreign wars. Neoconservatism is probably a bigger threat to America than socialism at the moment.