Public Opinion on Transgender Persons

[Othelos]

I don't see how a pronoun is special in any way. Uncommon =/= special.


They deserve the right to identify as a different gender, because they have a right to self-determination, like anyone else.

Yes, they can identify as whatever gender they like. I have complete respect for the right of self-determination, because telling other people what they are is none of my business. What is my business is what other people get to tell me to do. As I see it, I shouldn't have to make special allocations for people who simply believe that they should have said allocations, without having legitimate reasons for them.

And I'm saying the fact that they know who they are, is a legitimate reason to call them by what they wish.

Similarly, some women go by 'Ms.', while others go by 'Miss'.

[Galloism]

Yes, they can identify as whatever gender they like. I have complete respect for the right of self-determination, because telling other people what they are is none of my business. What is my business is what other people get to tell me to do. As I see it, I shouldn't have to make special allocations for people who simply believe that they should have said allocations, without having legitimate reasons for them.

And I'm saying the fact that they know who they are, is a legitimate reason to call them by what they wish.

Similarly, some women go by 'Ms.', while others go by 'Miss'.

Also Mrs.

[Othelos]

And I'm saying the fact that they know who they are, is a legitimate reason to call them by what they wish.

Similarly, some women go by 'Ms.', while others go by 'Miss'.

Also Mrs.

Well, that's if they're married.

[Galloism]

Also Mrs.

Well, that's if they're married.

Or widowed.

[Othelos]

Well, that's if they're married.

Or widowed.

I thought widows would go by 'miss' or 'ms.', but ok lol

[Galloism]

Or widowed.

I thought widows would go by 'miss' or 'ms.', but ok lol

No. You don't take away the Mrs title from a widow.

[Riiser-Larsen]

Yes, they can identify as whatever gender they like. I have complete respect for the right of self-determination, because telling other people what they are is none of my business. What is my business is what other people get to tell me to do. As I see it, I shouldn't have to make special allocations for people who simply believe that they should have said allocations, without having legitimate reasons for them.

And I'm saying the fact that they know who they are, is a legitimate reason to call them by what they wish.

Similarly, some women go by 'Ms.', while others go by 'Miss'.

Ms is just an abbreviation of miss, just like mrs is just a shorthand for missus. It's not a preference thing, it's a "how long do you want this to be?" thing.

[Galloism]

And I'm saying the fact that they know who they are, is a legitimate reason to call them by what they wish.

Similarly, some women go by 'Ms.', while others go by 'Miss'.

Ms is just an abbreviation of miss, just like mrs is just a shorthand for missus. It's not a preference thing, it's a "how long do you want this to be?" thing.

Uh, Ms. And Miss are different.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-dif ... and-ms.htm

[Riiser-Larsen]

Ms is just an abbreviation of miss, just like mrs is just a shorthand for missus. It's not a preference thing, it's a "how long do you want this to be?" thing.

Uh, Ms. And Miss are different.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-dif ... and-ms.htm

In that case, this does absolutely nothing to change my opinion, because it functions the exact same way, if not worse, than people demanding special pronouns. Some people eventually got the idea that "miss" might mean they belong to their parents? Wow, time to create an entirely new word simply because we feel uncomfortable. Unless "miss" came from some other word that meant "The property of their parents" then there's essentially no reason for the word "Ms." to exist.

[Othelos]

I thought widows would go by 'miss' or 'ms.', but ok lol

No. You don't take away the Mrs title from a widow.

Okay, thanks for correcting me.

And I'm saying the fact that they know who they are, is a legitimate reason to call them by what they wish.

Similarly, some women go by 'Ms.', while others go by 'Miss'.

Ms is just an abbreviation of miss, just like mrs is just a shorthand for missus. It's not a preference thing, it's a "how long do you want this to be?" thing.

It doesn't matter whether it is or not, because the contexts in which they're used are different. And some women will prefer to go by Ms., while others will prefer to go by Miss.

[Othelos]

Uh, Ms. And Miss are different.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-dif ... and-ms.htm

In that case, this does absolutely nothing to change my opinion, because it functions the exact same way, if not worse, than people demanding special pronouns. Some people eventually got the idea that "miss" might mean they belong to their parents? Wow, time to create an entirely new word simply because we feel uncomfortable. Unless "miss" came from some other word that meant "The property of their parents" then there's essentially no reason for the word "Ms." to exist.

It does, and it's used.

[Riiser-Larsen]

In that case, this does absolutely nothing to change my opinion, because it functions the exact same way, if not worse, than people demanding special pronouns. Some people eventually got the idea that "miss" might mean they belong to their parents? Wow, time to create an entirely new word simply because we feel uncomfortable. Unless "miss" came from some other word that meant "The property of their parents" then there's essentially no reason for the word "Ms." to exist.

It does, and it's used.

That doesn't mean that a bunch of people being uncomfortable with a word is a reason to not use it. And no, before you use the example of the n-word, or "f*ggot", those don't count. Those have a specific meanings that are insulting to the groups they refer to, which is a legitimate reason to not use those words. As a matter of fact, let's use those as an example. For hundreds of years, black people were referred to as negroes and n*ggers, and characterized as being degenerates, unintelligent, and uncultured. Eventually, those words get associated with those ideas, leading to terms that are inherently racist when used against black people. If a black person tells me "I don't want you to call me a negro" that is a legitimate reason to not want to be called something. Because it is used to defame or deprecate you or what you are, that is a legitimate reason to ask not to be called something. In the same way, I'm not going to call transgendered people "its" because that is used to defame and deprecate them. I'm not simply going to do what they ask because they ask me to do it. Believe it or not, I do not enjoy being people's "tools".

[Othelos]

It does, and it's used.

That doesn't mean that a bunch of people being uncomfortable with a word is a reason to not use it. And no, before you use the example of the n-word, or "f*ggot", those don't count. Those have a specific meanings that are insulting to the groups they refer to, which is a legitimate reason to not use those words. As a matter of fact, let's use those as an example. For hundreds of years, black people were referred to as negroes and n*ggers, and characterized as being degenerates, unintelligent, and uncultured. Eventually, those words get associated with those ideas, leading to terms that are inherently racist when used against black people. If a black person tells me "I don't want you to call me a negro" that is a legitimate reason to not want to be called something. Because it is used to defame or deprecate you or what you are, that is a legitimate reason to ask not to be called something. In the same way, I'm not going to call transgendered people "its" because that is used to defame and deprecate them. I'm not simply going to do what they ask because they ask me to do it. Believe it or not, I do not enjoy being people's "tools".

If they request you to call them something else, and you ignore it, that's just you being lazy and deliberately offensive.

Just like how it would be rude and offensive to deliberately refer to a guy as 'she'.

[Warpspace]

I find it weird of course because I'm not transgendered (and what you are not you typically cannot comprehend), but it's not my problem and there's no reason to have a problem with somebody's sexual identity.

[Riiser-Larsen]

That doesn't mean that a bunch of people being uncomfortable with a word is a reason to not use it. And no, before you use the example of the n-word, or "f*ggot", those don't count. Those have a specific meanings that are insulting to the groups they refer to, which is a legitimate reason to not use those words. As a matter of fact, let's use those as an example. For hundreds of years, black people were referred to as negroes and n*ggers, and characterized as being degenerates, unintelligent, and uncultured. Eventually, those words get associated with those ideas, leading to terms that are inherently racist when used against black people. If a black person tells me "I don't want you to call me a negro" that is a legitimate reason to not want to be called something. Because it is used to defame or deprecate you or what you are, that is a legitimate reason to ask not to be called something. In the same way, I'm not going to call transgendered people "its" because that is used to defame and deprecate them. I'm not simply going to do what they ask because they ask me to do it. Believe it or not, I do not enjoy being people's "tools".

If they request you to call them something else, and you ignore it, that's just you being lazy and deliberately offensive.

Just like how it would be rude and offensive to deliberately refer to a guy as 'she'.

That's not what we're talking about though, this is like a white person demanding that you refer to them and treat them like a black person because "They feel like they're a black man". Even if they've got some kind of brain abnormality that causes them to believe that they're black, that doesn't change the fact that they're a caucasian. Now, if there's some way to artificially increase the amount of melanin in their skin, and they choose to get the same skin color as a black person, then I'll indulge them, but simply believing that you're something different than you are does not mean you get special treatment. This is essentially a fight between you believing that people should get whatever they want when they ask for it, and me demanding that people work for the things that they want. Unless you're willing to actually open your mind to the idea that it might be annoying having to memorize a new set of pronouns for every single person who believes that they're special, you're never going to get anywhere. At least I am not attacking you for believing this, you're the only one who's actually insulted their opponent.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Uh, Ms. And Miss are different.

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-dif ... and-ms.htm

In that case, this does absolutely nothing to change my opinion, because it functions the exact same way, if not worse, than people demanding special pronouns. Some people eventually got the idea that "miss" might mean they belong to their parents? Wow, time to create an entirely new word simply because we feel uncomfortable. Unless "miss" came from some other word that meant "The property of their parents" then there's essentially no reason for the word "Ms." to exist.

They all come from the same word. There is no etymological reason why one of them would imply you're someone's property unless all of them do.

The reason "Ms." is useful enough to be popular outside feminazi circles is because it can be used for both married and unmarried women. I actually prefer "Miss," but "Ms." is safer when you do not know how old someone is and whether she is married. "Miss" or "Mrs." can be obnoxious if you use the wrong one. It's kind of like using "they" when you aren't sure if the person you are talking about is male or female. It's not that "he" or "she" are derogatory. It's just that it's annoying if you use the wrong one.

[Othelos]

If they request you to call them something else, and you ignore it, that's just you being lazy and deliberately offensive.

Just like how it would be rude and offensive to deliberately refer to a guy as 'she'.

That's not what we're talking about though, this is like a white person demanding that you refer to them and treat them like a black person because "They feel like they're a black man". Even if they've got some kind of brain abnormality that causes them to believe that they're black, that doesn't change the fact that they're a caucasian. Now, if there's some way to artificially increase the amount of melanin in their skin, and they choose to get the same skin color as a black person, then I'll indulge them, but simply believing that you're something different than you are does not mean you get special treatment. This is essentially a fight between you believing that people should get whatever they want when they ask for it, and me demanding that people work for the things that they want. Unless you're willing to actually open your mind to the idea that it might be annoying having to memorize a new set of pronouns for every single person who believes that they're special, you're never going to get anywhere. At least I am not attacking you for believing this, you're the only one who's actually insulted their opponent.

Race has a visible appearance, but gender doesn't. Generally, someone's gender matches their sex. But, there are cases when it doesn't, which makes sense - gender is a social construct.

I get what you're saying, and I would agree with you if there were many different gender neutral pronouns. However, the only one I have actually seen people use is they/them/their, which is used in casual speech when someone's gender isn't specifically defined as male/female, anyway.

No one is asking you to memorize lots of new words.

And no, I didn't insult you. I said that if you ignored someone's requests. It was hypothetical.

[Riiser-Larsen]

That's not what we're talking about though, this is like a white person demanding that you refer to them and treat them like a black person because "They feel like they're a black man". Even if they've got some kind of brain abnormality that causes them to believe that they're black, that doesn't change the fact that they're a caucasian. Now, if there's some way to artificially increase the amount of melanin in their skin, and they choose to get the same skin color as a black person, then I'll indulge them, but simply believing that you're something different than you are does not mean you get special treatment. This is essentially a fight between you believing that people should get whatever they want when they ask for it, and me demanding that people work for the things that they want. Unless you're willing to actually open your mind to the idea that it might be annoying having to memorize a new set of pronouns for every single person who believes that they're special, you're never going to get anywhere. At least I am not attacking you for believing this, you're the only one who's actually insulted their opponent.

Race has a visible appearance, but gender doesn't. Generally, someone's gender matches their sex. But, there are cases when it doesn't.

I get what you're saying, and I would agree with you if there were many different gender neutral pronouns. However, the only one I have actually see people use is they/them/their, which is used in casual speech when someone's gender isn't specifically defined as male/female, anyway.

No one is asking you to memorize lots of new words.

And no, I didn't insult you. I said that if you ignored someone's requests. It was hypothetical.

Tell that to the growing culture of special-snowflakes making up words like "Xir" or "Faeself" or whatever the fuck they feel like is an apropo pronoun for whatever they feel they are. I have no problem with transgender people, but this whole idea of "I should get what I want because I'm entitled to it" has led to the most bizarre and utterly illogical things. Things that can't even be observed as physical differences like transsexuality can be. My problem is that someone long ago probably said "This is a slippery slope" and lo-and-behold, the bottom of the slope is actually pretty damn close, but no one wants to slow down for fear of "offending someone".

[The Fascist American Empire]

I personally like being male. But if others are uncomfortable the way they were born then so be it. None of my business. I say, if you really have your heart set on it, then go for it. Just make sure you really want to first.

[Liriena]

Or it's just a transsexual woman keeping her medical history to herself, as is her right. Not all transsexual women are comfortable disclosing the gender they were designated at birth, and for good reasons. Even to this day transgender women, particularly transgender women of colour, are particularly vulnerable to hate crimes, and "trans panic" defenses are still used.

Than the transsexual shouldn't have any intimate relationships except with homosexuals.

It worries me just how ignorant that sentence is.

[Nazi Flower Power]

If they request you to call them something else, and you ignore it, that's just you being lazy and deliberately offensive.

Just like how it would be rude and offensive to deliberately refer to a guy as 'she'.

That's not what we're talking about though, this is like a white person demanding that you refer to them and treat them like a black person because "They feel like they're a black man". Even if they've got some kind of brain abnormality that causes them to believe that they're black, that doesn't change the fact that they're a caucasian. Now, if there's some way to artificially increase the amount of melanin in their skin, and they choose to get the same skin color as a black person, then I'll indulge them, but simply believing that you're something different than you are does not mean you get special treatment. This is essentially a fight between you believing that people should get whatever they want when they ask for it, and me demanding that people work for the things that they want. Unless you're willing to actually open your mind to the idea that it might be annoying having to memorize a new set of pronouns for every single person who believes that they're special, you're never going to get anywhere. At least I am not attacking you for believing this, you're the only one who's actually insulted their opponent.

If people are still using normal pronouns like "he," "she," and "they" it doesn't take that much effort to remember which one to use. People don't have any trouble assigning pronouns to historical figures, authors, etc. that they have never met in person or seen a picture of, so it really is not that difficult to remember "this person is a 'he'; that person is a 'she'," and so on as long as people are using familiar pronouns. We don't need to rely on a person's appearance to remember which one to use.

If they are making up new words like "xe" or whatever, I'm probably just going to use "they" because I don't understand what gender "xe" is supposed to be, and I use "they" to refer to people whose gender I don't know.

[Papal Republics]

Society should never discriminate against someone based on gender identity.

[Othelos]

Race has a visible appearance, but gender doesn't. Generally, someone's gender matches their sex. But, there are cases when it doesn't.

I get what you're saying, and I would agree with you if there were many different gender neutral pronouns. However, the only one I have actually see people use is they/them/their, which is used in casual speech when someone's gender isn't specifically defined as male/female, anyway.

No one is asking you to memorize lots of new words.

And no, I didn't insult you. I said that if you ignored someone's requests. It was hypothetical.

Tell that to the growing culture of special-snowflakes making up words like "Xir" or "Faeself" or whatever the fuck they feel like is an apropo pronoun for whatever they feel they are. I have no problem with transgender people, but this whole idea of "I should get what I want because I'm entitled to it" has led to the most bizarre and utterly illogical things. Things that can't even be observed as physical differences like transsexuality can be. My problem is that someone long ago probably said "This is a slippery slope" and lo-and-behold, the bottom of the slope is actually pretty damn close, but no one wants to slow down for fear of "offending someone".

When you meet many people irl who go by something other than he/she/they, and there are so many different terms that it becomes cumbersome for you to remember, then you can come back and argue your position legitimately.

[Captiotia]

I think what's more important than "I'm happy the way I am, but if somebody else is transgender it doesn't bother me, I don't care" is how people feel about violence towards trans people, and things like mental issues and disorders especially in trans youth who are told they're "freaks" or "unnatural" and worry about being injured or murdered. All because the ideas of cissexism, the gender binary, genitals=gender, and even the social construct of gender itself have been so ingrained and continue to be enforced heavily in society. It ties a lot into heteronormativity too.

Oh, and about the pronouns. Most people I know and have seen who use alternative pronouns or nounself pronouns allow the use of they/them as well, although it's usually for people who have trouble remembering or processing the new pronouns. I think that if we worked to establish an official widespread gender-neutral pronoun (like they/them, except strictly singular) that wasn't mocked or disregarded by the cis/binary population, it would be easier for lots of people, both trans and not.

[Crystal Spires]

When you meet many people irl who go by something other than he/she/they, and there are so many different terms that it becomes cumbersome for you to remember, then you can come back and argue your position legitimately.

Proposed Gender Neutral Pronoun	Nomative (subject)	oblique (object)	possessive determiner	possessive pronoun	reflexive pronoun
Gender Female Pronoun for an example	She laughed.	I called her.	Her eyes gleam.	That is hers.	She likes herself.
Ey Coined by Elverson	Ey laughed.	I called em.	Eir eyes gleam.	That is eirs.	Ey likes eirself
E Coined by Spivak	E laughed	I called Em	Eir eyes gleam.	That is Eirs.	E likes Emself
Hu Humanist	Hu laughed.	I called Hum	Hus eyes gleam.	That is Hus.	Hu likes Humself
Per	Per laughed.	I called per.	Per eyes gleam.	That is pers.	Per likes perself
Thon	Thon laughed.	I called thon.	Thons eyes gleam.	That is thons.	Thon likes thonself.
Jee	Jee laughed.	I called jem.	Jeir eyes gleam.	That is jeirs.	Jee likes jemself.
Ve	Ve laughed.	I called ver	Vis eyes gleam	That is vis.	Ve likes verself.
Xe	Xe laughed.	I called xem.	Xyr eyes gleam.	That is xyrs.	Xe likes xemself.
Ze Ze (or zie or sie) and zir (Proposed for its Germanic Origin)	Ze laughed.	I called zir/zem.	Zir/Zes eyes gleam.	That is zirs/zes.	Ze likes zirself
another Ze	Ze laughed.	I called hir.	Hir eyes gleam.	That is hirs.	Ze likes hirself.
Ze and mer	Ze laughed.	I called mer.	Zer eyes gleam.	That is zers.	Ze likes zemself.
Zhe, Zher, Zhim	Zhe laughed.	I called zhim.	Zher eyes gleam.	That is zhers.	Zhe likes zhimself.

In fairness, I am not acting as an apologetic for these nasty transphobes, but to speak from a linguistic point of view, there are actually over 12 recognized gender neutral pronouns, but none of them have been made in common use enough which actually does generally pose a burden on people unfamiliar with the language rules, and these are not simple rules either, and yes, Capitalization matters, so to be sensitive to all the needs of trans or gender neutral folks, it is nigh impossible to accommodate all the pronouns which are essentially trying to convey the same gender neutral tone. It's actually really much harder to remember any of these rules even if you love and respect the people who want to use them because it requires relearning English grammar rules... which, is not going to generally be adopted anyway, so using they and them is easier. But as a linguist I felt I needed to correct the assumption that there is no push for a gender neutral pronoun. There are many and even more than on this list and it becomes unwieldy to expect people to know them all. However, as a caveat, if you love and respect the person in question, you will likely learn to use the appropriate pronoun, it'll feel like it's not real English, but it'll grow on you.