Public Opinion on Transgender Persons

[Farnhamia]

Are you talking about 'Don't cha'?

My ass is the best.

Knock it off with the ass discussion, all of you!

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I still don't understand why you have such a huge personal issue with it. It shouldn't matter to you...at all.

I'll tell you why I have an issue with it: I don't like it when people expect me to change how I act, learn an entirely new set of nonsensical pronouns that they made up, and give them an allowance to chastise me when I inevitably don't, simply because those people think that they're special. Believe it or not, I don't like making allowances for people simply because they believe they deserve them, I expect a legitimate reason and, as it stands, all I've gotten are "You shouldn't care about this so much" or variations of "Because it will make them feel good".

Again, this is not about them being special snowflakes. You see, this is not just about you. I fail to see what's so confusing about addressing people by the way they wish to be addressed as. So this person looks masculine but wishes to be addressed as feminine. What's so difficult about that? You address them as feminine. They don't identify with a gender, then you use the gender neutral pronouns they wish to be addressed by.

This is not boot camp. It's social interaction.

[Othelos]

I still don't understand why you have such a huge personal issue with it. It shouldn't matter to you...at all.

I'll tell you why I have an issue with it: I don't like it when people expect me to change how I act, learn an entirely new set of nonsensical pronouns that they made up, and give them an allowance to chastise me when I inevitably don't, simply because those people think that they're special.

They aren't special, they're just identifying as who they think they are.

Believe it or not, I don't like making allowances for people simply because they believe they deserve them, I expect a legitimate reason and, as it stands, all I've gotten are "You shouldn't care about this so much" or variations of "Because it will make them feel good".

why do you care about a 'legitimate reason'? It's not harming you, and if you want to be polite, I don't see the issue. It's not taking any extra time to call them by what they prefer, either.

[Threlizdun]

No, they exist to differentiate between genders. Most people are cisgender, so it just overlaps a lot.

Besides, there isn't a proper pronoun for intersex people.

No, they have never referred to genders. You only believe they do because someone's told you that they do.

Personal pronouns may be classified by person, number and case. In the English language, there are three persons (first, second and third), each of which can be divided into two forms by number (singular and plural), as in the table. Third person also distinguishes gender (male, female or neuter).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoun

[Othelos]

No, they exist to differentiate between genders. Most people are cisgender, so it just overlaps a lot.

Besides, there isn't a proper pronoun for intersex people.

No, they have never referred to genders. You only believe they do because someone's told you that they do.

Then why can people in some places change the legal pronoun that they are referred to, without getting a sex change?

[Reichlandia01]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

*sigh*

[Threlizdun]

I still don't understand why you have such a huge personal issue with it. It shouldn't matter to you...at all.

I'll tell you why I have an issue with it: I don't like it when people expect me to change how I act, learn an entirely new set of nonsensical pronouns that they made up, and give them an allowance to chastise me when I inevitably don't, simply because those people think that they're special. Believe it or not, I don't like making allowances for people simply because they believe they deserve them, I expect a legitimate reason and, as it stands, all I've gotten are "You shouldn't care about this so much" or variations of "Because it will make them feel good".

Jesus, it's one fucking word. They aren't asking you to turn your life around for them. All they are asking is that you show a marginalized group with an exceptionally high likelihood of suffering from depression, anxiety disorders, and substance abuse with a little common decency by using the pronoun they wish to be referred to by. It isn't hard.

[Norstal]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

Who made you God? Who made you Judge of All Living Things?

[Galloism]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

Who made you God? Who made you Judge of All Living Things?

That's my job Galloismdamnit.

[Riiser-Larsen]

I'll tell you why I have an issue with it: I don't like it when people expect me to change how I act, learn an entirely new set of nonsensical pronouns that they made up, and give them an allowance to chastise me when I inevitably don't, simply because those people think that they're special.

They aren't special, they're just identifying as who they think they are.

Believe it or not, I don't like making allowances for people simply because they believe they deserve them, I expect a legitimate reason and, as it stands, all I've gotten are "You shouldn't care about this so much" or variations of "Because it will make them feel good".

why do you care about a 'legitimate reason'? It's not harming you, and if you want to be polite, I don't see the issue. It's not taking any extra time to call them by what they prefer, either.

What if I got amnesia and the first person I run into tells me "You're the Prince of Wales". Should I suddenly expect people to refer to me as "Your Highness"? It's the only memory I have, I know I'm the Prince of Wales because that is a memory which is key to me, it's a part of who I am. We don't treat people in special ways simply because they ask us.

I care about legitimate reasons because people need to deserve the things they get. What you've told me is that I shouldn't care, they don't need to deserve, and that they should just get it. You haven't given me any reasons about why I should make allowances for any of these people besides "Because they want you to." And as much as you might think "Well it doesn't harm you", it does harm me because if every time I got someone's pronouns wrong they go "That's not the right pronoun!" it's going to become a major fucking annoyance, not to mention somewhat alienating.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Who made you God? Who made you Judge of All Living Things?

That's my job Galloismdamnit.

You're wearing a kilt again, aren't you?

[Threlizdun]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

Someone's gender is determined by birth. It is determined primarily by the structure of their hypothalamus. Therefore, someone born with the physical composition that will lead them to develop a male gender identity shall always be a male regardless of the body they are born into.

[Pope Joan]

That's because gender roles are created by society. They're irrelevant to evolution.

Then why does that require anyone to demand special pronouns at all?! Gender-based pronouns exist to differentiate between sex, not gender roles or anything like that! If anyone was even thinking through this whole bloody thing I wouldn't even have a problem with some transgendered people in the first place!

Look at the languages which divide most inanimate objects by male/female.

La plume, le bureau. Why? It seems ridiculous to divide the world in such a fashion.

So maybe it's ridiculous to divide humanity that way as well.

[Riiser-Larsen]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

And brain scans have found that the brains of transgender people are more similar to the brains of the sex they identify as than the brains of the sex they were born as. So yes, they are actually "men in women's bodies" and vice-versa.

[Othelos]

They aren't special, they're just identifying as who they think they are.


why do you care about a 'legitimate reason'? It's not harming you, and if you want to be polite, I don't see the issue. It's not taking any extra time to call them by what they prefer, either.

What if I got amnesia and the first person I run into tells me "You're the Prince of Wales". Should I suddenly expect people to refer to me as "Your Highness"? It's the only memory I have, I know I'm the Prince of Wales because that is a memory which is key to me, it's a part of who I am. We don't treat people in special ways simply because they ask us.

I don't see how a pronoun is special in any way. Uncommon =/= special.

I care about legitimate reasons because people need to deserve the things they get. What you've told me is that I shouldn't care, they don't need to deserve, and that they should just get it. You haven't given me any reasons about why I should make allowances for any of these people besides "Because they want you to." And as much as you might think "Well it doesn't harm you", it does harm me because if every time I got someone's pronouns wrong they go "That's not the right pronoun!" it's going to become a major fucking annoyance, not to mention somewhat alienating.

They deserve the right to identify as a different gender, because they have a right to self-determination, like anyone else.

[Sun Wukong]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

No one has the same natural hair color their entire life.

[Riiser-Larsen]

Then why does that require anyone to demand special pronouns at all?! Gender-based pronouns exist to differentiate between sex, not gender roles or anything like that! If anyone was even thinking through this whole bloody thing I wouldn't even have a problem with some transgendered people in the first place!

Look at the languages which divide most inanimate objects by male/female.

La plume, le bureau. Why? It seems ridiculous to divide the world in such a fashion.

So maybe it's ridiculous to divide humanity that way as well.

It only seems ridiculous because you're speaking English, one of the only germanic/romance languages that doesn't have masculine, feminine, and neuter objects.

[Trygg]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

And brain scans have found that the brains of transgender people are more similar to the brains of the sex they identify as than the brains of the sex they were born as. So yes, they are actually "men in women's bodies" and vice-versa.

Just curious, but do you have a source? I'm into studies like this, and these scan results sound really interesting.

[Riiser-Larsen]

What if I got amnesia and the first person I run into tells me "You're the Prince of Wales". Should I suddenly expect people to refer to me as "Your Highness"? It's the only memory I have, I know I'm the Prince of Wales because that is a memory which is key to me, it's a part of who I am. We don't treat people in special ways simply because they ask us.

I don't see how a pronoun is special in any way. Uncommon =/= special.

I care about legitimate reasons because people need to deserve the things they get. What you've told me is that I shouldn't care, they don't need to deserve, and that they should just get it. You haven't given me any reasons about why I should make allowances for any of these people besides "Because they want you to." And as much as you might think "Well it doesn't harm you", it does harm me because if every time I got someone's pronouns wrong they go "That's not the right pronoun!" it's going to become a major fucking annoyance, not to mention somewhat alienating.

They deserve the right to identify as a different gender, because they have a right to self-determination, like anyone else.

Yes, they can identify as whatever gender they like. I have complete respect for the right of self-determination, because telling other people what they are is none of my business. What is my business is what other people get to tell me to do. As I see it, I shouldn't have to make special allocations for people who simply believe that they should have said allocations, without having legitimate reasons for them.

[Norstal]

Then why does that require anyone to demand special pronouns at all?! Gender-based pronouns exist to differentiate between sex, not gender roles or anything like that! If anyone was even thinking through this whole bloody thing I wouldn't even have a problem with some transgendered people in the first place!

Look at the languages which divide most inanimate objects by male/female.

La plume, le bureau. Why? It seems ridiculous to divide the world in such a fashion.

So maybe it's ridiculous to divide humanity that way as well.

You realize there's gender in Romantic languages so that it "flows" well, right? Has nothing to do with sexist discrimination.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Look at the languages which divide most inanimate objects by male/female.

La plume, le bureau. Why? It seems ridiculous to divide the world in such a fashion.

So maybe it's ridiculous to divide humanity that way as well.

You realize there's gender in Romantic languages so that it "flows" well, right? Has nothing to do with sexist discrimination.

Yup. Quite true.

[Riiser-Larsen]

And brain scans have found that the brains of transgender people are more similar to the brains of the sex they identify as than the brains of the sex they were born as. So yes, they are actually "men in women's bodies" and vice-versa.

Just curious, but do you have a source? I'm into studies like this, and these scan results sound really interesting.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... _qjh_mwJdy

Whether or not it's actually legitimate, I don't know, but it sure as hell is a study.

[Othelos]

It's wrong and unnatural. A person's gender is determined at birth. No matter how many surgeries & procedures a person has done if they are a man they shall be a man until death, the same for women. It's like dying your hair no matter what you'll always have the same natural hair color for the rest of your life.

I had really blonde hair when I was younger, but now I'm only semi-blonde.

Anyway, your statement is wrong because gender is a social construct. There's a reason 'gender roles' are called that, and not 'sex roles'. When someone figures out that their gender doesn't match what they were raised to be regarded as, they can choose to identify as something else.

[Trygg]

Just curious, but do you have a source? I'm into studies like this, and these scan results sound really interesting.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... _qjh_mwJdy

Whether or not it's actually legitimate, I don't know, but it sure as hell is a study.

Looked creditable at any rate, thanks for the good read.