Public Opinion on Transgender Persons

[Riiser-Larsen]

Then if they do that, I don't have a problem. If they look like a girl, and go around shouting "My name is Chaz Bono, and I identify as a man!" and expect people to treat them in a special way, then I'm going to have a problem. While there are a lot of transsexuals who present themselves as males, and look male, and sometimes even get the surgery to become a male, there are also those who make no effort whatsoever and simply expect people to treat them in a special way.

Why is calling someone their preferred pronoun such a big deal to you? It's not going to hurt you, and it doesn't affect you in any way.

No, it's not really a big deal when it's just he vs she. When you get to the people who really think they're special snowflakes, and start demanding we refer to them as Xe, or Xir, is when I start to have an issue. I don't exactly feel like it's a good use of time to indulge the demands of someone who could simply make an effort to deal with the confusion on their own, instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them.

[Othelos]

Why is calling someone their preferred pronoun such a big deal to you? It's not going to hurt you, and it doesn't effect you in any way.

Doing so would minimize the struggle of people who actually do have genetic anomalies or chemical imbalances that cause them to be different than the societal norms, like people who are homosexual or asexual.

Not that I agree with it mind you.

I don't see how.

[Othelos]

Why is calling someone their preferred pronoun such a big deal to you? It's not going to hurt you, and it doesn't affect you in any way.

No, it's not really a big deal when it's just he vs she. When you get to the people who really think they're special snowflakes, and start demanding we refer to them as Xe, or Xir, is when I start to have an issue. I don't exactly feel like it's a good use of time to indulge the demands of someone who could simply make an effort to deal with the confusion on their own, instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them.

Trans people aren't confused...

If they identify as something else, there's a good chance that they've thought it through.

[Fanosolia]

Why is calling someone their preferred pronoun such a big deal to you? It's not going to hurt you, and it doesn't affect you in any way.

No, it's not really a big deal when it's just he vs she. When you get to the people who really think they're special snowflakes, and start demanding we refer to them as Xe, or Xir, is when I start to have an issue. I don't exactly feel like it's a good use of time to indulge the demands of someone who could simply make an effort to deal with the confusion on their own, instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them.

not to sound rude but... could someone explain this to me too? I don't quite understand the xe or xir thing.

[Distruzio]

Why is calling someone their preferred pronoun such a big deal to you? It's not going to hurt you, and it doesn't affect you in any way.

No, it's not really a big deal when it's just he vs she. When you get to the people who really think they're special snowflakes, and start demanding we refer to them as Xe, or Xir, is when I start to have an issue. I don't exactly feel like it's a good use of time to indulge the demands of someone who could simply make an effort to deal with the confusion on their own, instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them.

Here's the thing: the trans community generally isn't demanding to be treated as a special snowflake. In fact, they're reinforcing the binary gender paradigm that is, in fact, the norm. What you are describing with this response seems less to target the trans community at large and more to focus on the individuals who identify without a gender. I can understand that.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No, it's not really a big deal when it's just he vs she. When you get to the people who really think they're special snowflakes, and start demanding we refer to them as Xe, or Xir, is when I start to have an issue. I don't exactly feel like it's a good use of time to indulge the demands of someone who could simply make an effort to deal with the confusion on their own, instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them.

not to sound rude but... could someone explain this to me too? I don't quite understand the xe or xir thing.

Trying to create gender neutral pronouns. Some people prefer not to be addressed with the ones we have currently : he, she, him, her, they, them, and prefer constructs like zey, xir, xe.

[Othelos]

No, it's not really a big deal when it's just he vs she. When you get to the people who really think they're special snowflakes, and start demanding we refer to them as Xe, or Xir, is when I start to have an issue. I don't exactly feel like it's a good use of time to indulge the demands of someone who could simply make an effort to deal with the confusion on their own, instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them.

not to sound rude but... could someone explain this to me too? I don't quite understand the xe or xir thing.

People who don't identify as a specific gender might use those terms as pronouns.

[Riiser-Larsen]

Because sometimes people don't get to decide how they want to be treated. If I have a friend who demands I refer to him with the title "Emperor" I'm not going to because he isn't an emperor, and I'm not going to indulge that. Given what some other people have said, this is a purely psychological thing. I have no problem if they decide "I want to be a woman" and then have a gender-alteration surgery to become a women. I have a problem with someone saying "I want to be a women" but not wanting to put the effort in so they just make everyone treat them like they're a woman. If people want to be considered in a certain way, they should work for it, instead of just expecting people to give them what they want.

Because people don't get to decide is not a reason to be disrespectful. Once again, I asked you WHY not just treat people as they express to be treated.... I didn't ask how you liked to express your person as an asshole.

Asking people to work for the things they want is not being an asshole, it's being harsh but reasonable. Being an asshole is jumping down the throat of every single person who doesn't treat you exactly the way you want people to treat you. If we just gave everyone exactly what they wanted, nobody would work for things anymore, and achievements would lose meaning. Being a scientist is a huge part of who I am as a person, but if I fuck up in college and don't get my PhD, I'm not going to make a stink about it and demand that people refer to me as Dr.xyz, or Professor xyz, I'm going to acknowledge that I need to work to get my PhD and earn those things.

[Riiser-Larsen]

No, it's not really a big deal when it's just he vs she. When you get to the people who really think they're special snowflakes, and start demanding we refer to them as Xe, or Xir, is when I start to have an issue. I don't exactly feel like it's a good use of time to indulge the demands of someone who could simply make an effort to deal with the confusion on their own, instead of expecting everyone else to do it for them.

Trans people aren't confused...

If they identify as something else, there's a good chance that they've thought it through.

I didn't mean to imply that they were confused, I meant the confusion of other people with the gender pronouns.

[Fanosolia]

not to sound rude but... could someone explain this to me too? I don't quite understand the xe or xir thing.

Trying to create gender neutral pronouns. Some people prefer not to be addressed with the ones we have currently : he, she, him, her, they, them, and prefer constructs like zey, xir, xe.

my only misunderstanding is why gender neutral? Is it because of zey oppose gender roles of society or is there another reason?

Edit: so many mistakes > >;

[Rocopurr]

Here we go.


Why did you change my post to Nana's?

I don't think I did, but if I did then it was probably just a mix-up in how I was quoting.

Okay. Also, did you read the article I linked? It shows that there's evidence that trans people are more than just special snowflakes.

[Riiser-Larsen]

I don't think I did, but if I did then it was probably just a mix-up in how I was quoting.

Okay. Also, did you read the article I linked? It shows that there's evidence that trans people are more than just special snowflakes.

Yes, I did read it, and I still believe that if they do believe that they are a "female in a male body" or vice-versa they should get a gender-change surgery.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Trying to create gender neutral pronouns. Some people prefer not to be addressed with the ones we have currently : he, she, him, her, they, them, and prefer constructs like zey, xir, xe.

my only misunderstanding is why gender neutral? Is it because of the gender role of society or is there another reason?

Ok, let me see if I can explain this: some people do not ascribe to the gender binary of male/female. Some people do not identify as either. They aren't into addressing themselves based on their sex. That's why they're gender neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality

[Distruzio]

Because people don't get to decide is not a reason to be disrespectful. Once again, I asked you WHY not just treat people as they express to be treated.... I didn't ask how you liked to express your person as an asshole.

Asking people to work for the things they want is not being an asshole, it's being harsh but reasonable. Being an asshole is jumping down the throat of every single person who doesn't treat you exactly the way you want people to treat you. If we just gave everyone exactly what they wanted, nobody would work for things anymore, and achievements would lose meaning. Being a scientist is a huge part of who I am as a person, but if I fuck up in college and don't get my PhD, I'm not going to make a stink about it and demand that people refer to me as Dr.xyz, or Professor xyz, I'm going to acknowledge that I need to work to get my PhD and earn those things.

Shall we, then, disregard the psychological anguish and effort burdening the vast majority of the trans community on the basis that they haven't yet managed to complete the hoop jumping in order to receive a gender reassignment?

Should I dismiss your labor not yet completed in your pursuit of your PhD because you've not yet managed to complete the hoop jumping in order to receive it?

Or shall I stand in awe of your accomplishments thus far and admit that you are, in point of fact, that much more a professor than you otherwise might have been?

[Fanosolia]

my only misunderstanding is why gender neutral? Is it because of the gender role of society or is there another reason?

Ok, let me see if I can explain this: some people do not ascribe to the gender binary of male/female. Some people do not identify as either. They aren't into addressing themselves based on their sex. That's why they're gender neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality

okay thank you, you've helped understand a friend of a friend better.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Ok, let me see if I can explain this: some people do not ascribe to the gender binary of male/female. Some people do not identify as either. They aren't into addressing themselves based on their sex. That's why they're gender neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality

okay thank you, you've helped understand a friend of a friend better.

No problem.

[Riiser-Larsen]

my only misunderstanding is why gender neutral? Is it because of the gender role of society or is there another reason?

Ok, let me see if I can explain this: some people do not ascribe to the gender binary of male/female. Some people do not identify as either. They aren't into addressing themselves based on their sex. That's why they're gender neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality

I don't think that article is what you're thinking of. Gender Neutrality is just a movement that states that social institutions shouldn't distinguish people based on their gender.

[Distruzio]

Okay. Also, did you read the article I linked? It shows that there's evidence that trans people are more than just special snowflakes.

Yes, I did read it, and I still believe that if they do believe that they are a "female in a male body" or vice-versa they should get a gender-change surgery.

It's never that simple for them, boss. There is quite a lot of work to go into preparing for that surgery. You can't just up and get it one day like you can a... wait a minute, no surgery is like that, actually. SRS takes quite a long time to get, Riiser.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Ok, let me see if I can explain this: some people do not ascribe to the gender binary of male/female. Some people do not identify as either. They aren't into addressing themselves based on their sex. That's why they're gender neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality

I don't think that article is what you're thinking of. Gender Neutrality is just a movement that states that social institutions shouldn't favor people based on their gender.

I don't think you're reading. Although, indeed, the article it's about a movement, it explains what gender neutral means.

[Rocopurr]

Okay. Also, did you read the article I linked? It shows that there's evidence that trans people are more than just special snowflakes.

Yes, I did read it, and I still believe that if they do believe that they are a "female in a male body" or vice-versa they should get a gender-change surgery.

Most do want to transition with SRS and HRT. I imagine the reason not all do is because of the cost and stigma surrounding it. It's easier being in the closet, yes?

And now that there's evidence will you refer to trans people by their preferred pronouns or is it not good enough?

[Othelos]

Trans people aren't confused...

If they identify as something else, there's a good chance that they've thought it through.

I didn't mean to imply that they were confused, I meant the confusion of other people with the gender pronouns.

"Deal with the confusion on their own" implies that they are confused.

[Fanosolia]

Ok, let me see if I can explain this: some people do not ascribe to the gender binary of male/female. Some people do not identify as either. They aren't into addressing themselves based on their sex. That's why they're gender neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality

I don't think that article is what you're thinking of. Gender Neutrality is just a movement that states that social institutions shouldn't distinguish people based on their gender.

Yes but I do know of people that do use the ideas of that movement to be gender neutral in a sense.

[Riiser-Larsen]

Yes, I did read it, and I still believe that if they do believe that they are a "female in a male body" or vice-versa they should get a gender-change surgery.

It's never that simple for them, boss. There is quite a lot of work to go into preparing for that surgery. You can't just up and get it one day like you can a... wait a minute, no surgery is like that, actually.

I get that, and if I want to be a lawyer I have to spend several years learning "legalese" and then take an exam to finally prove I am qualified to be a lawyer. Before that, I can't just claim that I'm a lawyer despite the fact that I don't have anything to back that up. I don't expect people to just up and get a surgery, I expect them to be reasonable and understanding of the fact that society bases most impressions on visual input. Instead of going "Even though I'm sexually a man, I expect you to refer to me as a she" they should say "I'm transgender and am going to get a surgery to change my sex. Afterwards, when I'm sexually female, I would like you to refer to me as a she".

[Riiser-Larsen]

I don't think that article is what you're thinking of. Gender Neutrality is just a movement that states that social institutions shouldn't distinguish people based on their gender.

Yes but I do know of people that do use the ideas of that movement to be gender neutral in a sense.

That... seems kinda weird. I mean, I can get behind the whole transsexual thing, and I'm fine with gay people, and I even have a decent tolerance for furries, but why would anyone use their political ideology as a reason to change what they are personally?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yes but I do know of people that do use the ideas of that movement to be gender neutral in a sense.

That... seems kinda weird. I mean, I can get behind the whole transsexual thing, and I'm fine with gay people, and I even have a decent tolerance for furries, but why would anyone use their political ideology as a reason to change what they are personally?

Maybe because they do not identify as what they are biologically... to begin with.