Your gender identity and sexual orientation?

[Fjormark]

No, it's natural genetics. You're either male of female, I don't care what some medical 'scientists' are trying to create, it just isn't natural to think you're supposed to be the opposite sex.

Be definition; everything in natural world is natural.

... Your point?

[Spoder]

Your sex is always male, or female, never something else. Your *sex* is the genetics portion, but gender is what you identify as.

[Camicon]

Religion does not have "a lot" of definitions; asserting otherwise is factually incorrect. Multiple religions do not result in multiple definitions. Though, since you seem so intent on being wrong, how about you list all the different definitions you think that religion has.

Nope, not going to do that, but on the other hand, i am going to prove that you're narrowminded: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Definitions

"Tell me about these 'different definitions' you think religion has."
"Nah bro. By the way, here's a wiki article that has a bunch of people arguing about how to define religion."

What? Moving on though, you'll notice that every (somewhat accurate) definition of religion provided have a few things in common with each other: they all agree that it is a social phenomenon, it is organized, and it is about following the supernatural. What they argue about is the how and the why, and to be quite frank, trying to include the motivations and goals of religion in a general definition is always doomed to fail, because religions are diverse in those aspects. And you know what? Let them argue about that bullshit; it's fairly easy to identify a religion with the three clearly defined aspects that we have. It's social, organized, and follows the supernatural; any more detail would just pigeon-hole the definition to describe certain kinds of religion, and doesn't really have a place in the general definition of all religions.

And by the by, if that sort of crap is what you meant by "religion has different definitions" then you're being disingenuous at best. Pedantic differences about a few minutiae surrounding the core concepts hardly qualifies.

Regardless, this is well off from the thread topic. Anything else to say, TG me.

[Valica]

Nobody in here was screaming about oppression until you came in, chief.
Some people talked about how coming out was hard, which I'm sure it is.

If you don't think trans-people or non-hetero people aren't commonly discriminated against, then you must have your head up your ass.

Now you're intruding into my safe space!

Stahp it.

If you don't think half of the so-called "identities" are a bunch of rubbish made up by pre-teens, then you must have your head up your ass, otherwise you're like fat-shaming me, or something.

Is that what you're on about?

Here's what I accept for classification:

Hetero: Man + Woman, Woman + Man
Homo: Man + Man, Woman + Woman
Bi: Man + Man + Woman, Woman + Woman + Man
Bi (lean): (Man + Man) + Woman, (Woman + Woman) + Man
Pan (no preference): Person + Person

I don't accept shit like otherkin and grey-romantic and all of that jazz.
I accept the big four: Straight, Gay, Bi (+ curious), and Pan.

[Spoder]

Nope, not going to do that, but on the other hand, i am going to prove that you're narrowminded: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Definitions

"Tell me about these 'different definitions' you think religion has."
"Nah bro. By the way, here's a wiki article that has a bunch of people arguing about how to define religion."

What? Moving on though, you'll notice that every (somewhat accurate) definition of religion provided have a few things in common with each other: they all agree that it is a social phenomenon, it is organized, and it is about following the supernatural. What they argue about is the how and the why, and to be quite frank, trying to include the motivations and goals of religion in a general definition is always doomed to fail, because religions are diverse in those aspects. And you know what? Let them argue about that bullshit; it's fairly easy to identify a religion with the three clearly defined aspects that we have. It's social, organized, and follows the supernatural; any more detail would just pigeon-hole the definition to describe certain kinds of religion, and doesn't really have a place in the general definition of all religions.

And by the by, if that sort of crap is what you meant by "religion has different definitions" then you're being disingenuous at best. Pedantic differences about a few minutiae surrounding the core concepts hardly qualifies.

Regardless, this is well off from the thread topic. Anything else to say, TG me.

Why TG? The mods still read your TGs, and those are really the only posters not involved in the argument that matter.

[Immoren]

Be definition; everything in natural world is natural.

... Your point?

Perhaps I don't have point.
Or perhaps point is "it is/it isn't natural" shouldn't be thrown around like confettie.
Or perhaps African Swallow beats European Swallow in Race.

[Ifreann]

Nobody in here was screaming about oppression until you came in, chief.
Some people talked about how coming out was hard, which I'm sure it is.

If you don't think trans-people or non-hetero people aren't commonly discriminated against, then you must have your head up your ass.

Now you're intruding into my safe space!

Stahp it.

If you don't think half of the so-called "identities" are a bunch of rubbish made up by pre-teens, then you must have your head up your ass, otherwise you're like fat-shaming me, or something.

I, for one, find it very odd that these identities you speak of are only ever mentioned on NSG by people like you. Teenagers trying to mock something they think is stupid with all the wit of their schoolmates yelling homophobic slurs at people beating them in COD. It's almost as though the problem isn't pre-teens on Tumblr making up contrived bullshit, it's you desperately trying to be cooler than them.

[Valica]

... Your point?

Perhaps I don't have point.
Or perhaps point is "it is/it isn't natural" shouldn't be thrown around like confettie.
Or perhaps African Swallow beats European Swallow in Race.

I'll show you swallow.

Wait...

[Rexero]

My point was that you are given a sex at birth, there is no gender identity outside of your sex.

The pattern of people whose self-identification conflicts with their status as XX/XY means we must separate the possession of XX/XY from personal and cultural characteristics associated with either criterion.

Therefore, we refer to the characteristic of XX/XY as 'sex' and the personal and cultural characteristics associated with XX/XY as 'gender'.

Sex can be given before birth using technology. There is a gender identity separate from sex because gender conflicts with sex in some people.

...it just isn't natural to think you're supposed to be the opposite sex.

This discussion does not concern people identifying as the opposite sex. Transgender people do not identify as the opposite sex but as the gender traditionally separate from their individual sex. Genderqueer people either identify between the masculine-feminine extremes of the gender spectrum or as agender.

But it does, I literally can not think of a way you can suddenly change your gender whenever you feel like it, it just doesn't make sense.

It's generally a non-rational process, although someone could argue for societal abandonment of gender.

[Camicon]

This is well off from the thread topic. Anything else to say, TG me.

Why TG? The mods still read your TGs, and those are really the only posters not involved in the argument that matter.

Because this thread isn't about how to define religion, it's about gender identity and sexual orientation. Limborg and myself shouldn't be having a conversation about the former in a thread about the latter.

And the Mods don't have anywhere near enough free time to go trawling through people's TG's for shits and giggles, so... yeah.

[Immoren]

Perhaps I don't have point.
Or perhaps point is "it is/it isn't natural" shouldn't be thrown around like confettie.
Or perhaps African Swallow beats European Swallow in Race.

I'll show you swallow.

Wait...

Perhaps you should buy a dinner first.

[Spoder]

Why TG? The mods still read your TGs, and those are really the only posters not involved in the argument that matter.

Because this thread isn't about how to define religion, it's about gender identity and sexual orientation. Limborg and myself shouldn't be having a conversation about the former in a thread about the latter.

And the Mods don't have anywhere near enough free time to go trawling through people's TG's for shits and giggles, so... yeah.

I suppose the first point is correct.

But the mods can read your TGs whenever they want.

[Libertarian California]

Now you're intruding into my safe space!

Stahp it.

If you don't think half of the so-called "identities" are a bunch of rubbish made up by pre-teens, then you must have your head up your ass, otherwise you're like fat-shaming me, or something.

I, for one, find it very odd that these identities you speak of are only ever mentioned on NSG by people like you.

They're generally mentioned on Tumblr, and they are a good source of material for humor. The cultural left of NSG need to lighten up every once in a while before returning to their lives of self-loathing and hormone-driven rage.

Teenagers trying to mock something they think is stupid with all the wit of their schoolmates yelling homophobic slurs at people beating them in COD. It's almost as though the problem isn't pre-teens on Tumblr making up contrived bullshit, it's you desperately trying to be cooler than them.

No, I just enjoy their reactions when they realize that no one cares about what they've made up. Their little temper tantrums are so cute.

[Valica]

I, for one, find it very odd that these identities you speak of are only ever mentioned on NSG by people like you.

They're generally mentioned on Tumblr, and they are a good source of material for humor. The cultural left of NSG need to lighten up every once in a while before returning to their lives of self-loathing and hormone-driven rage.

Teenagers trying to mock something they think is stupid with all the wit of their schoolmates yelling homophobic slurs at people beating them in COD. It's almost as though the problem isn't pre-teens on Tumblr making up contrived bullshit, it's you desperately trying to be cooler than them.

No, I just enjoy their reactions when they realize that no one cares about what they've made up. Their little temper tantrums are so cute.

Did you even read my response about rejecting the BS identities?

[Ifreann]

Hey look, you didn't read your own source.

But whatever helps you sleep better at night.

Here let me just quote this again without explaining anything because that will definitely get me away from responsibility.

Do you not understand it? It's pretty simple. You said that a person is either male, or female, and to support this assertion you linked to the Wikipedia article on XY sex determination. As I pointed out, that very article goes on to say that in humans there are more than just XY males and XX females. So when you said that a person is either male or female based on their chromosomes, you were wrong. Not only were you wrong, but you were contradicted by the very article you used to show that you were right.

Just quoting this to preserve your amusing typo.

You're so smart and witty, I wish I was as much as an elitist as you.

It takes a lot of hard work and dedication to get where I am today.

Protip: You're watching a children's show for little girls. (I don't know why I'm even responding to someone I can't seriously)

No, I'm posting on an internet forum that's largely for teenage boys. But maybe I'll watch a children's show for little girls when I go home.

---

I, for one, find it very odd that these identities you speak of are only ever mentioned on NSG by people like you.

They're generally mentioned on Tumblr, and they are a good source of material for humor.

Maybe they are, but you're not making anything of that material.

The cultural left of NSG need to lighten up every once in a while before returning to their lives of self-loathing and hormone-driven rage.

Said the young man in the midst of puberty.

Teenagers trying to mock something they think is stupid with all the wit of their schoolmates yelling homophobic slurs at people beating them in COD. It's almost as though the problem isn't pre-teens on Tumblr making up contrived bullshit, it's you desperately trying to be cooler than them.

No, I just enjoy their reactions when they realize that no one cares about what they've made up. Their little temper tantrums are so cute.

Sounds like an admission of trolling to me.

[Linux and the X]

You can't change biological facts because your brain thinks so, you're either naturally male or female and there's nothing wrong with that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

>b-but muh special snowflake gender identity!!

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

[Rexero]

No, I just enjoy their reactions when they realize that no one cares about what they've made up. Their little temper tantrums are so cute.

Why do you presume you can determine the inauthenticity of their identification? If you cannot verify this inauthenticity through means of telepathy or other evidence establishing their identification as false, then mockery of them is malicious.

[Farnhamia]

You can't change biological facts because your brain thinks so, you're either naturally male or female and there's nothing wrong with that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

>b-but muh special snowflake gender identity!!

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

Transgender is a thing. Men who identify more with women and will become women.
Pansexual is almost the same thing as bisexual, except broader.

If we go further:

an·drog·y·nous - partly male and partly female in appearance; of indeterminate sex.
her·maph·ro·dite - a person/animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or as the natural condition.

There is no X and Y with humans. Our brains are too complex for a completely binary gender.

Gender can be anything, sex is limited. Your sex is either male, female, or hermaphrodite.
Gender is your identity, sex is your bits and pieces.

Don't be a fucking twat.

*** Warned for flame-bait ***

[Condunum]

Sex - either of the two main categories (m/f) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

They're also divided by genetics. You're arguing you can change biological facts whenever you feel like it.

One of the first things transgender people have to accept is that their sex is not what they want it to be and that they cannot change that yet. However, we live in the information age, an age where life-altering medical procedures are enhancing our lives every day. "You cannot change biological fact (yet)" is not a valid argument.

There were/are medical scientists working on giving trans-people the ability to reproduce according to their bits.
By the definition of sex, you are right. But genetics have nothing to do with it. It's reproductive functions.

No, it's natural genetics. You're either male of female, I don't care what some medical 'scientists' are trying to create, it just isn't natural to think you're supposed to be the opposite sex.

It's entirely natural, and it happens. The simplest and least damaging way to fix it is gender reassignment, which is the closes we can get to a full biological chromosome swap. Yet again, this is a reality transgender people are entirely aware of.

What are you going to say when medical science makes it possible for a MtF trans-person to bear a child?
Are you going to argue that they aren't a woman?

Exactly, those abominations will never be considered women in my eyes.

You don't matter. In the grand picture of the cosmos, or perhaps even the grand scheme of your employer, you are insignificant and not worth consideration. What I'm saying is, you do not matter where you are not concerned.

Then again, I could use the defense that a MtF trans-person is as much a woman as a sterile cis woman based on this definition.
But once again, the definition of sex has NOTHING to do with genetics.

But it does, I literally can not think of a way you can suddenly change your gender whenever you feel like it, it just doesn't make sense.

Gender reassignment surgery. You may be too closed-minded to see it, but the reality is there.

You're a bigot and you're wrong.

I'm more logical than you, and calling me a bigot will never change facts.

Logical people do not resort to dead arguments, the word faggot, or anger. You are being incredibly illogical.

[Farnhamia]

Transgender is a thing. Men who identify more with women and will become women.
Pansexual is almost the same thing as bisexual, except broader.

If we go further:

an·drog·y·nous - partly male and partly female in appearance; of indeterminate sex.
her·maph·ro·dite - a person/animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or as the natural condition.

There is no X and Y with humans. Our brains are too complex for a completely binary gender.

Gender can be anything, sex is limited. Your sex is either male, female, or hermaphrodite.
Gender is your identity, sex is your bits and pieces.

Don't be a fucking twat.

My point was that you are given a sex at birth, there is no gender identity outside of your sex. Just because you have a chromosomal arrangement (or that sometimes you end up as a deranged monster as a mixture of the two) that is contrary to your phenotype sex doesn't mean that everyone else can just choose whatever gender they want to be.

Just think, if you woke up one morning and decided to be the opposite gender or even both genders because you didn't feel comfortable being natural, there might be a problem with your logic right there.

I'll be whatever I want, you fucking deluded faggot.

*** Warned for flaming ***

[Fjormark]

The pattern of people whose self-identification conflicts with their status as XX/XY means we must separate the possession of XX/XY from personal and cultural characteristics associated with either criterion.

That's where you're wrong, why should we give them their freedom to be whatever they want to be whenever they feel like it and call it 'gender' just because they don't feel like it's normal to be whatever sex you're born with?

Sex can be given before birth using technology. There is a gender identity separate from sex because gender conflicts with sex in some people.

But that makes no sense, how could you possibly want to be a female if you're born male?

Transgender people do not identify as the opposite sex but as the gender traditionally separate from their individual sex. Genderqueer people either identify between the masculine-feminine extremes of the gender spectrum or as agender.

They're insane.

It's generally a non-rational process, although someone could argue for societal abandonment of gender.

There we have it, my conclusion is that there's no such thing as gender; it's just a social construct which seemed to pick up a few decades ago for the deluded liberal masses. Just stick with sex and stop being mentally ill or incapable of comprehending what you are.

[Condunum]

The pattern of people whose self-identification conflicts with their status as XX/XY means we must separate the possession of XX/XY from personal and cultural characteristics associated with either criterion.

That's where you're wrong, why should we give them their freedom to be whatever they want to be whenever they feel like it and call it 'gender' just because they don't feel like it's normal to be whatever sex you're born with?

Because we have a grasp on the concept known as liberty.

[Spoder]

Fjormark...

Gender and sex are two totally different things.

Stop ignoring that.

Sex is what you are classified as biologically.

Gender is what you identify as.

Kthx.

Oh, did you also know that there are rare cases where people are born with a chromosome composure other than the standard XX/XY?

[Fjormark]

Because we have a grasp on the concept known as liberty.

Liberty can go too far just to appease some people.

[Spoder]

Because we have a grasp on the concept known as liberty.

Liberty can go too far just to appease some people.

...So here we have it folks, the confession of a poster that the freedom to be who you want to be, without causing harm to anybody else is wrong.