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Riots in St. Louis after Police kill Teen

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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:55 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:You've been sourcing their claims as "facts" for rebuttal, but they're all unreliable.

I'm not sure where I claimed they were facts.
Tarsonis Survivors wrote: You know nothing about what actually happened because no one currently involved does except the Cop and the dead guy.

No, we have witnesses.
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:There's no credible evidence at this to give us any idea of how exactly the shooting occurred.

Well, no shit.
Tarsonis Survivors wrote: Yet you are trying to argue for a certain version of the events, because it's what you want to believe not because it's substantiated by reality (at this time).

No, I'm not trying to argue for any version as fact, only arguing that from multiple accounts, what is most likely true.
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Your multiple witness claim doesn't hold up because of the two witnesses 1 admits they didn't see the shooting. The one who presumably did, is also not a credible witness. So this is worthless at this point.

Might want to actually read the entire source.

Family members and some witnesses disputed the police account. They say Brown had his hands up in surrender when he was shot.

There were, in fact, witnesses of the shooting.
Last edited by Mavorpen on Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman
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The UK in Exile
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Postby The UK in Exile » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:56 pm

Vamtrl wrote:
Gauthier wrote:
One bomber = lots

I love new math.


Just an example, cant refute my claim?


That which is asserted without evidence, can be refuted without evidence.
"We fought for the public good and would have enfranchised the people and secured the welfare of the whole groaning creation, if the nation had not more delighted in servitude than in freedom"

"My actions are as noble as my thoughts, That never relish’d of a base descent.I came unto your court for honour’s cause, And not to be a rebel to her state; And he that otherwise accounts of me, This sword shall prove he’s honour’s enemy."

"Wählte Ungnade, wo Gehorsam nicht Ehre brachte."
DEFCON 0 - not at war
DEFCON 1 - at war "go to red alert!" "are you absolutely sure sir? it does mean changing the lightbulb."
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Tarsonis Survivors
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:57 pm

The UK in Exile wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
You've been sourcing their claims as "facts" for rebuttal, but they're all unreliable. You know nothing about what actually happened because no one currently involved does except the Cop and the dead guy. There's no credible evidence at this to give us any idea of how exactly the shooting occurred. Yet you are trying to argue for a certain version of the events, because it's what you want to believe not because it's substantiated by reality (at this time).

-Unknown, first witness not credible, second witness did not witness shooting.




Your multiple witness claim doesn't hold up because of the two witnesses 1 admits they didn't see the shooting. The one who presumably did, is also not a credible witness. So this is worthless at this point.


You know who the least credible witness to a shooting is right? the guy who did the shooting.


Agreed, hence why I'm not arguing supporting his version of events. I'm just saying he's the one most likely to actually know. Whether he's gonna tell us the truth is a separate issue.
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The UK in Exile
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Postby The UK in Exile » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:59 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
The UK in Exile wrote:
You know who the least credible witness to a shooting is right? the guy who did the shooting.


Agreed, hence why I'm not arguing supporting his version of events. I'm just saying he's the one most likely to actually know. Whether he's gonna tell us the truth is a separate issue.


He's no more likely to know than the Eyewitnesses.
"We fought for the public good and would have enfranchised the people and secured the welfare of the whole groaning creation, if the nation had not more delighted in servitude than in freedom"

"My actions are as noble as my thoughts, That never relish’d of a base descent.I came unto your court for honour’s cause, And not to be a rebel to her state; And he that otherwise accounts of me, This sword shall prove he’s honour’s enemy."

"Wählte Ungnade, wo Gehorsam nicht Ehre brachte."
DEFCON 0 - not at war
DEFCON 1 - at war "go to red alert!" "are you absolutely sure sir? it does mean changing the lightbulb."
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Tarsonis Survivors
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:07 pm

The UK in Exile wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Agreed, hence why I'm not arguing supporting his version of events. I'm just saying he's the one most likely to actually know. Whether he's gonna tell us the truth is a separate issue.


He's no more likely to know than the Eyewitnesses.


Um...yes he fucking is. I don't know how to say it. If he's the one who directly carried it out, he is a hell of a lot likely to know how it went down than people who "thought they saw something" from a distance.
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The UK in Exile
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Postby The UK in Exile » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:16 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
The UK in Exile wrote:
He's no more likely to know than the Eyewitnesses.


Um...yes he fucking is. I don't know how to say it. If he's the one who directly carried it out, he is a hell of a lot likely to know how it went down than people who "thought they saw something" from a distance.


Not "people who've given a verbatim account having being standing a matter of feet away" though.
"We fought for the public good and would have enfranchised the people and secured the welfare of the whole groaning creation, if the nation had not more delighted in servitude than in freedom"

"My actions are as noble as my thoughts, That never relish’d of a base descent.I came unto your court for honour’s cause, And not to be a rebel to her state; And he that otherwise accounts of me, This sword shall prove he’s honour’s enemy."

"Wählte Ungnade, wo Gehorsam nicht Ehre brachte."
DEFCON 0 - not at war
DEFCON 1 - at war "go to red alert!" "are you absolutely sure sir? it does mean changing the lightbulb."
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Tarsonis Survivors
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:25 pm

The UK in Exile wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Um...yes he fucking is. I don't know how to say it. If he's the one who directly carried it out, he is a hell of a lot likely to know how it went down than people who "thought they saw something" from a distance.


Not "people who've given a verbatim account having being standing a matter of feet away" though.



I'm sorry you don't see how dumb what your saying sounds. If you carry out an action, you are the most qualified person to answer the question of "how it happened".
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The UK in Exile
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Postby The UK in Exile » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:34 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
The UK in Exile wrote:
Not "people who've given a verbatim account having being standing a matter of feet away" though.



I'm sorry you don't see how dumb what your saying sounds. If you carry out an action, you are the most qualified person to answer the question of "how it happened".


Not really, your emotional state effects your recollection. your just as likely to forget or mis-remember things as a witness standing next to you. He may even have the advantage of not being influenced by the emotional pressures that prompted you to act in the first place.
"We fought for the public good and would have enfranchised the people and secured the welfare of the whole groaning creation, if the nation had not more delighted in servitude than in freedom"

"My actions are as noble as my thoughts, That never relish’d of a base descent.I came unto your court for honour’s cause, And not to be a rebel to her state; And he that otherwise accounts of me, This sword shall prove he’s honour’s enemy."

"Wählte Ungnade, wo Gehorsam nicht Ehre brachte."
DEFCON 0 - not at war
DEFCON 1 - at war "go to red alert!" "are you absolutely sure sir? it does mean changing the lightbulb."
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Tarsonis Survivors
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:36 pm

The UK in Exile wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:

I'm sorry you don't see how dumb what your saying sounds. If you carry out an action, you are the most qualified person to answer the question of "how it happened".


Not really, your emotional state effects your recollection. your just as likely to forget or mis-remember things as a witness standing next to you. He may even have the advantage of not being influenced by the emotional pressures that prompted you to act in the first place.


You're assuming he wasn't emotionally in control but the witness was.

Regardless, ask 5 different people what happened you'll get 5 different stories.
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Korouse
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Postby Korouse » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:44 pm

Details so far:

Black teen was suspect in robbery, and fit description
Cop noticed Black teen fit description
Cop talked to Black teen
Black teen ran away
fight happened
Cop felt his life was threatened, shot Black teen.

There's literally no way you can refute that.
Last edited by Korouse on Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything is illusory except power,' the revolutionary people reply." - Vladimir Lenin
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:46 pm

Korouse wrote:Details so far:

Black teen was suspect in robbery, and fit description
Cop noticed Black teen fit description
Cop talked to Black teen
Black teen ran away
fight happened
Cop felt his life was threatened
Teen ran away, then turned around with hands up, cop shot Black teen.

Fixed that for you.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman
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Korouse
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Postby Korouse » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:47 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Korouse wrote:Details so far:

Black teen was suspect in robbery, and fit description
Cop noticed Black teen fit description
Cop talked to Black teen
Black teen ran away
fight happened
Cop felt his life was threatened
Teen ran away, then turned around with hands up, cop shot Black teen.

Fixed that for you.

That's an eyewitness report yet to be verified.
"Everything is illusory except power,' the revolutionary people reply." - Vladimir Lenin
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:48 pm

Korouse wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Fixed that for you.

That's an eyewitness report yet to be verified.

No, that's several eyewitness reports that contradict a claim by the cop that's also not been verified.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman
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Korouse
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Postby Korouse » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:53 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Korouse wrote:That's an eyewitness report yet to be verified.

No, that's several eyewitness reports that contradict a claim by the cop that's also not been verified.

So you wouldn't trust a cop over people who didn't see the whole thing go down? Especially a cop who has been pretty good thus far. No matter how much you wanna pin this on "racism" it's not, it's a mistake the Cop shouldn't be punished for because he was potentially in danger.
"Everything is illusory except power,' the revolutionary people reply." - Vladimir Lenin
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:56 pm

Korouse wrote:So you wouldn't trust a cop over people who didn't see the whole thing go down?

There isn't a reason for me to do so given how poor the police force demonstrated themselves when it came to handling peaceful protests and the riots that ensued because of that ineptitude.
Last edited by Mavorpen on Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman
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The UK in Exile
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Postby The UK in Exile » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:00 pm

Korouse wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:No, that's several eyewitness reports that contradict a claim by the cop that's also not been verified.

So you wouldn't trust a cop over people who didn't see the whole thing go down? Especially a cop who has been pretty good thus far. No matter how much you wanna pin this on "racism" it's not, it's a mistake the Cop shouldn't be punished for because he was potentially in danger.


I trust people who aren't facing potential punishment over people who are.
Last edited by The UK in Exile on Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We fought for the public good and would have enfranchised the people and secured the welfare of the whole groaning creation, if the nation had not more delighted in servitude than in freedom"

"My actions are as noble as my thoughts, That never relish’d of a base descent.I came unto your court for honour’s cause, And not to be a rebel to her state; And he that otherwise accounts of me, This sword shall prove he’s honour’s enemy."

"Wählte Ungnade, wo Gehorsam nicht Ehre brachte."
DEFCON 0 - not at war
DEFCON 1 - at war "go to red alert!" "are you absolutely sure sir? it does mean changing the lightbulb."
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:02 pm

Korouse wrote:Details so far:

Black teen was suspect in robbery, and fit description
Cop noticed Black teen fit description
Cop talked to Black teen
Black teen ran away
fight happened
Cop felt his life was threatened, shot Black teen.

There's literally no way you can refute that.

except that, according to a cell phone app notification from nbc news, the cop didn't know that mr brown was a suspect in a robbery

and how can he feel threatened by a man running away from him?
whatever
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:03 pm

Korouse wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:No, that's several eyewitness reports that contradict a claim by the cop that's also not been verified.

So you wouldn't trust a cop over people who didn't see the whole thing go down? Especially a cop who has been pretty good thus far. No matter how much you wanna pin this on "racism" it's not, it's a mistake the Cop shouldn't be punished for because he was potentially in danger.

I don't believe anything 100% until there is forensic evidence supporting their claim.
whatever
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:03 pm

Ashmoria wrote:
Korouse wrote:Details so far:

Black teen was suspect in robbery, and fit description
Cop noticed Black teen fit description
Cop talked to Black teen
Black teen ran away
fight happened
Cop felt his life was threatened, shot Black teen.

There's literally no way you can refute that.

except that, according to a cell phone app notification from nbc news, the cop didn't know that mr brown was a suspect in a robbery

and how can he feel threatened by a man running away from him?

In the words of that random rich white couple in GTA V: "HELP, HE'S BLACK!"
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman
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Korouse
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Postby Korouse » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:04 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Korouse wrote:So you wouldn't trust a cop over people who didn't see the whole thing go down?

There isn't a reason for me to do so given how poor the police force demonstrated themselves when it came to handling peaceful protests and the riots that ensued because of that ineptitude.

So you're not going to trust the cop because other officers were aggressive?

k.
"Everything is illusory except power,' the revolutionary people reply." - Vladimir Lenin
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4years
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Postby 4years » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:04 pm

Korouse wrote:Details so far:

Black teen was suspect in robbery, and fit description
Cop noticed Black teen fit description
Cop talked to Black teen
Black teen ran away
fight happened
Cop felt his life was threatened, shot Black teen.

There's literally no way you can refute that.


1. Cop didn't know teen was a suspect.

2. Eyewitness reports have the cop acting terribly unprofessionally and then turning violent and executing teen without serious provocation.

3. Protests occur and police crackdown producing the mess we have now.

4. Refuting your nonsense was fairly easy.
Political Compass: Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -10
"Those who do not move, do not notice their chains. "
-Rosa Luxemburg
"In place of bourgeois society with all of it's classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, one in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all" -Karl Marx
There is no such thing as rational self interest; pure reason leads to the greatest good for the greatest number.
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Korouse wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:There isn't a reason for me to do so given how poor the police force demonstrated themselves when it came to handling peaceful protests and the riots that ensued because of that ineptitude.

So you're not going to trust the cop because other officers were aggressive?

I'm curious on why I should trust the cop when there's evidence that both the police force in general has not been properly trained and eyewitness accounts contradicting him?
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman
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Ashmoria
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Founded: Mar 19, 2004
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ashmoria » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:07 pm

Mavorpen wrote:
Korouse wrote:So you're not going to trust the cop because other officers were aggressive?

I'm curious on why I should trust the cop when there's evidence that both the police force in general has not been properly trained and eyewitness accounts contradicting him?


why would anyone trust the cop when an unarmed man is shot dead in the street?
whatever
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4years
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Postby 4years » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:10 pm

Korouse wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:No, that's several eyewitness reports that contradict a claim by the cop that's also not been verified.

So you wouldn't trust a cop over people who didn't see the whole thing go down? Especially a cop who has been pretty good thus far. No matter how much you wanna pin this on "racism" it's not, it's a mistake the Cop shouldn't be punished for because he was potentially in danger.


Why should I trust a cop who randomly stopped someone and the street and then killed said person over several eyewitness? Especially since the the officer in question has motivation to lie while the eyewitnesses don't and the police department in question was already facing criticism over its handling of racial matters and has tried to crackdown even on peaceful protests?
Political Compass: Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -10
"Those who do not move, do not notice their chains. "
-Rosa Luxemburg
"In place of bourgeois society with all of it's classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, one in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all" -Karl Marx
There is no such thing as rational self interest; pure reason leads to the greatest good for the greatest number.
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Tarsonis Survivors
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Founded: Feb 03, 2009
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:11 pm

4years wrote:
Korouse wrote:Details so far:

Black teen was suspect in robbery, and fit description
Cop noticed Black teen fit description
Cop talked to Black teen
Black teen ran away
fight happened
Cop felt his life was threatened, shot Black teen.

There's literally no way you can refute that.


1. Cop didn't know teen was a suspect.

2. Eyewitness reports have the cop acting terribly unprofessionally and then turning violent and executing teen without serious provocation.

3. Protests occur and police crackdown producing the mess we have now.

4. Refuting your nonsense was fairly easy.


1. Unimportant
2. that witness has been refuted by other witnesses. statement not credible
3. Crime apologizing
4. hardly refuted anything.
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