Islamic State Crisis Megathread (ISIS/ISIL/IS)

[Laanvia]

A (Sunni) Islamic Republic is what's needed in Syria. Of course, I'd prefer a secular regime, but we've seen that Secularism does not work in the Middle East and Syria is no exception.

It "doesn't work" because no one really tries it.

You can't say it doesn't work when most people in the Middle East have only two options - radical Islamism or indifferent authoritarianism - and choose one or the other.

Western ideals are usually connected to supposed Judeo-American plots, so things like secularism tend to be undesirable.

Or an Islamic Democracy.

[Laanvia]

Okay then, let them have their supposedly "non-radical Islamic Republic" but cut all foreign aid and diplomatic relations. Issue bans on our citizens going there, arms embargos and up the sanctions on Iran as well. Strike some kind of deal with Russia and China to withdraw their support from Syria as well.

Another option is we start providing military assistance to the Syrian Army, and I am talking about the proper army not these FSA/ISIS nutjobs and monetary assistance to the Assad government.

And how in heck would that help the situation in Syria?

The FSA need major financing and arming from western nations to topple Assad the dictator.

[Utrinque Paratus]

Okay then, let them have their supposedly "non-radical Islamic Republic" but cut all foreign aid and diplomatic relations. Issue bans on our citizens going there, arms embargos and up the sanctions on Iran as well. Strike some kind of deal with Russia and China to withdraw their support from Syria as well.

Another option is we start providing military assistance to the Syrian Army, and I am talking about the proper army not these FSA/ISIS nutjobs and monetary assistance to the Assad government.

And how in heck would that help the situation in Syria?

The FSA need major financing and arming from western nations to topple Assad the dictator.

That's the point. I wouldn't help the FSA.

[Utrinque Paratus]

Okay then, let them have their supposedly "non-radical Islamic Republic" but cut all foreign aid and diplomatic relations. Issue bans on our citizens going there, arms embargos and up the sanctions on Iran as well. Strike some kind of deal with Russia and China to withdraw their support from Syria as well.

Another option is we start providing military assistance to the Syrian Army, and I am talking about the proper army not these FSA/ISIS nutjobs and monetary assistance to the Assad government.

And how in heck would that help the situation in Syria?

The FSA need major financing and arming from western nations to topple Assad the dictator.

And when I refer to Syria, I mean your supposedly non-radical Islamic Republic. If you succeed in overthrowing him, we shouldn't be giving any aid at all. Cut relations, simple.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Let's see if NK start going to war with ISIS..

It's ironic considering their expertise at kidnapping people.

Chances are they'll offer up a mixture of condemning ISIS (who no doubt are bound to disagree with the Hirohito-esque personality cult of the Kimmies) and blaming the West (America) for it.

They'll probably just up their aid to the Syrian government because no one likes Daesh.

[Ganos Lao]

It "doesn't work" because no one really tries it.

You can't say it doesn't work when most people in the Middle East have only two options - radical Islamism or indifferent authoritarianism - and choose one or the other.

Western ideals are usually connected to supposed Judeo-American plots, so things like secularism tend to be undesirable.

Or an Islamic Democracy.

I call it as I see it.

The Middle East is a lot like how people describe Russia. It has never had a real democratic tradition (in the Western sense, anyway, which is held up as the universal standard for the rest of the world to follow). For centuries, it has been the domain of feudal nobility, warlords of the East, and opportunists like ISIS seeking to make a name for themselves. This is why the Middle East is the way it is. No one there wants to try the Western ideals of democracy and freedom because they are seen as un-Islamic. The Middle East still lives in the spirit of "Zionists are after us and America is their weapon," as we've seen in incidents such as the Ayatollah Khomeini blaming the Americans and Zionists for a Muslim messianic cult's attack on the Masjid al-Haram.

The only guy there who you could really say is any good is Oman's Sultan Qaboos who has financed the construction of holy places of minority faiths. But despite such gestures, the Gulf Centre for Human Rights reported that torture is widespread in Oman:

A GCHR mission in October 2013 documented the arsenal of torture methods in use in Oman including mock execution, beating, hooding, solitary confinement, subjection to extremes of temperature and to constant noise, abuse and humiliation. The practice is allowed to flourish against a back drop of widespread arbitrary arrest and detention in secret institutions. The state has failed to conduct prompt and impartial investigations into these allegations as required under its constitutional and international law obligations.

So he's not exactly as good as you'd want out of a regional leader. But you never hear much happening in Oman, so he's not as big on the scale.

There's Israel, but there's so many opinions about them that to discuss them would be to derail the thread. Israel is pretty much the only thing resembling a real democratic government. This makes the Muslim states (or, at least, those with a lot of clout and money) think democracy = bad. After all, why should the people have a say? Only Allah Himself should have a say in how mortals live their daily lives, that is, whatever "His Chosen" interpret His word as being when it comes to that, hence ISIS and other such movements arising in recent years.

Also, "Islamic democracy" can mean all sorts of things, for the record. If you're convinced I'm wrong, tell me what exactly in the Middle East constitutes a legitimate "Islamic" democracy? Or, perhaps, what could?

The ideas of men like Muhammad Iqbal would never work in the Middle East today unless there is a clear, concise effort to implement them, and we usually don't see that. The Arab Spring was the exception to the rule, and it's largely ended up being co-opted by radical Islamists who saw an opening and took it the same way that the Christian fundamentalists took the KS and PCP outbreaks in the 80s - as a tool to further their own agendas at the expense of the rest of the population.

[Ganos Lao]

It "doesn't work" because no one really tries it.

You can't say it doesn't work when most people in the Middle East have only two options - radical Islamism or indifferent authoritarianism - and choose one or the other.

Western ideals are usually connected to supposed Judeo-American plots, so things like secularism tend to be undesirable.

Exactly.

It's a catch 22.

You can try to get them to implement secular reforms, and they'll consider it an attack on Islam.

You can ignore the region entirely, and they'll consider your very existence an attack on Islam.

I've heard it said that oh, if America was isolationist still, like it should be, we wouldn't have been bothered by these terrorists.

But America was already demonized by the Islamists, even when Communism was the enemy. Sayyid Qutb had already articulated the rejection of Western values with his writings that blended Islamism with the idea that the Americans were essentially uncultured barbarians whose women were wayward temptresses:

the American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs—and she shows all this and does not hide it

The American is primitive in his artistic taste, both in what he enjoys as art and in his own artistic works. "Jazz" music is his music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy their primitive inclinations, as well as their desire to be noisy on the one hand and to excite bestial tendencies on the other. The American's intoxication in "jazz" music does not reach its full completion until the music is accompanied by singing that is just as coarse and obnoxious as the music itself. Meanwhile, the noise of the instruments and the voices mounts, and it rings in the ears to an unbearable degree… The agitation of the multitude increases, and the voices of approval mount, and their palms ring out in vehement, continuous applause that all but deafens the ears

Basically, to him, Islam was the only way for humanity to progress. Well, his brand of Islam, anyway.

Islamism isn't a recent invention. Islamism has been around for centuries. What we see with ISIS is what the Victorians dealt with in the Sudan.

It's likely that America (and the West as a whole, the whole world at that) would still be in their sights. The very existence of anything outside their version of Islam angers them that much. In the end, the Middle East has to cultivate its means of reform if it wants to make progress. Too much dependency on the Western model will essentially kill any chance of democratic growth.

That's not to say the West can't help. It just can't lead.

[Laanvia]

I just tricked a guy that I'm in Syria

And how in heck would that help the situation in Syria?

The FSA need major financing and arming from western nations to topple Assad the dictator.

And when I refer to Syria, I mean your supposedly non-radical Islamic Republic. If you succeed in overthrowing him, we shouldn't be giving any aid at all. Cut relations, simple.

The FSA need money to overthrow Assad. Things will be better without him.

[Migas999]

I just tricked a guy that I'm in Syria

And when I refer to Syria, I mean your supposedly non-radical Islamic Republic. If you succeed in overthrowing him, we shouldn't be giving any aid at all. Cut relations, simple.

The FSA need money to overthrow Assad. Things will be better without him.

Why will things be better without Assad?

[Laanvia]

I just tricked a guy that I'm in Syria

The FSA need money to overthrow Assad. Things will be better without him.

Why will things be better without Assad?

Because people won't be oppressed or shot for what they believe in.

[Migas999]

Why will things be better without Assad?

Because people won't be oppressed or shot for what they believe in.

The FSA also shoots people who don´t agree with them, they´re radicals

[Washington Resistance Army]

Why will things be better without Assad?

Because people won't be oppressed or shot for what they believe in.

You still have yet to prove that.

[Migas999]

Because people won't be oppressed or shot for what they believe in.

You still have yet to prove that.

Assads regime does opress https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... repression
But the FSA isn´t any better

[Washington Resistance Army]

You still have yet to prove that.

Assads regime does opress https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... repression
But the FSA isn´t any better

I've never denied that Assad is a dictator, but Laanvia has yet to prove that the FSA are the shining exemplars of everything good in the world.

[Migas999]

Assads regime does opress https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... repression
But the FSA isn´t any better

I've never denied that Assad is a dictator, but Laanvia has yet to prove that the FSA are the shining exemplars of everything good in the world.

That´s what I´m saying the FSA is no better than Assad
The Syrian civil war is really a question of picking the lesser of two evils

[Seraven]

I just tricked a guy that I'm in Syria

And when I refer to Syria, I mean your supposedly non-radical Islamic Republic. If you succeed in overthrowing him, we shouldn't be giving any aid at all. Cut relations, simple.

The FSA need money to overthrow Assad. Things will be better without him.

Because things will totally better with FSA in Syria. Never mind that they are not actually will be united after Assad fall, and will become parts of Islamic nations, secular nations etc.

[Laanvia]

I just tricked a guy that I'm in Syria

The FSA need money to overthrow Assad. Things will be better without him.

Because things will totally better with FSA in Syria. Never mind that they are not actually will be united after Assad fall, and will become parts of Islamic nations, secular nations etc.

"they are not actually will be united after Assad fall".


Also, things will be much better.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Because things will totally better with FSA in Syria. Never mind that they are not actually will be united after Assad fall, and will become parts of Islamic nations, secular nations etc.

"they are not actually will be united after Assad fall".


Also, things will be much better.

Got any source that things will be better or are you just going to keep spewing nonsense?

[Laanvia]

"they are not actually will be united after Assad fall".


Also, things will be much better.

Got any source that things will be better or are you just going to keep spewing nonsense?

I don't need a source to say things will be better. Get a grip.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Got any source that things will be better or are you just going to keep spewing nonsense?

I don't need a source to say things will be better. Get a grip.

Yeah actually, you do. It's a baseless claim and you know it, you just keep saying it cuz "hurr durr Assad r teh ebul".

If you want anyone to take you seriously you should probably learn how all that works.

[Migas999]

Got any source that things will be better or are you just going to keep spewing nonsense?

I don't need a source to say things will be better. Get a grip.

You´re the one who needs to get a grip and stop making baseless claims when other people have descridited them with other sources
Also stop fucking dodging the point of this conversation to correct the godamn grammar, you can understand damn well what they mean

[Migas999]

By the way Laanvia this is what´s happening to FSA http://www.ibtimes.com/four-years-later ... ed-1847116

[Utrinque Paratus]

By the way Laanvia this is what´s happening to FSA http://www.ibtimes.com/four-years-later ... ed-1847116

Indeed, a bunch of barbarians with homemade rockets. Nothing more.

[Migas999]

Got any source that things will be better or are you just going to keep spewing nonsense?

I don't need a source to say things will be better. Get a grip.

Things won´t be better under FSA why because they do things like this
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -condemned
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-the- ... se-2013-11
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2 ... rimes.html
http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/20 ... civilians/
As you can see FSA commits atrocious war crimes too

[West Aurelia]

Iraq launches a militia-led offensive to cut off supply lines to Ramadi:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mid ... story.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/ ... ce=twitter

A French journalist pretended to be interested in joining IS and was asked to be the wife of a French fighter in Syria:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... =edit_2221