Russia hits West with food import ban in sanctions row

[Arglorand]

No, that analogy is shit. You're asking us to build not a fence, but a titanium wall, for which a) we don't have cash b) we won't be able to build a /house/. We are a member of NATO and as such we have built a fence and a house. Ukraine was unable to do that because it was for the past twenty years being screwed over by people playing with its sociopolitical emotions.

What country are you in? If you are in Poland then you should know that Poland also has battle hardened troops from participating in military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, the sahara, Somalia and even the Phillipines. Unless Russia uses nuclear weapons, Poland would be an equal match for Russian forces.

Lithuania, not Poland, unfortunately (in regards to defence at least)

[Shaka-Zulu]

If I may. Even without external help, Ukraine is still capable of putting up a good fight against Russia with the equipment that Ukraine currently has. Ukraine already has everything it needs to expel an invasion in terms of man power and equipment. What it truly lacks, is quality leadership that was tested in the fires of actual combat.

And, like Russia, Ukraine does have some battle hardened troops. Let us not forget that Ukrain's military forces participating in operations against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

In this wikipedia article under belligerents you will see Ukraine listed as active belligerent against both Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Enduring_Freedom

Ukraine also participated, actively, in the Iraq war against Saddam Hussein and Islamist terror groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Nati ... 80%93_Iraq

A good fight = / = equate victory by any means.


The Ukrainian equipment is outdated, while Russia is modernizing.
Its moral is to put it lightly, nonexistent, while some members' loyalty is uncertain at best.


What Ukraine would do is put Russia into an Afghanistan like situation, where the costs of invading and occupying the place outweigh any benefits. But that is a long term strategy and is mainly about insurgents rather than the army. The Ukrainian military couldn't stand up to Russia's whatsoever for very long.

I have a bit more confidence in Ukrainian military forces because I worked along side them in Iraq. The soldiers who left their posts in Crimea as soon as this all started were not veteran soldiers, they were fresh recruits just out of basic training. They hadn't be tested and molded by fire when this whole ordeal started.

If Ukraine puts the veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan in charge of the military, then it is likely that Russia would be forced to fight a war of attrition because it would be fighting against leaders whose skills are equally to those of its own military leaders.

Remember the US defeated a far bigger, more advanced, stronger and wealthier United Kingdom back in the day.

[Shaka-Zulu]

I'd like to be a slight bit of an optimist here and assume that an invasion is not going to happen, and suggest that we go back to discussing Empire Starves Back.

That would be a realist's approach as well. Everyone knows an invasion would be a catastrophe for both Ukraine and Russia.

That is a real problem. It would weaken both nations to the point that others such as Al Qaeda, Chechen extremists, and ISIS would have a cakewalk seizing parts of both Russia and Ukraine.

[The Grey Wolf]

Thank you for making fun of my country in WWII
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944

I had forgotten that.

That's what immediately came to mind when you made that joke...

[Gauthier]

As a Chinese, I welcome this new move. Sure, this will cause our domestic prices to go up, but the farmers could use a bit more skrilla; things haven't been going their way for a while. And hey, anything to get Russia even more in our pockets... It never fails to amaze me how the Russians seem to think they're in the driver's seat in this particular partnership; the Chinese are absolutely setting the tempo. We're even making them buy Renminbi to pay us with!

^This. Good business for China. Just like that gas deal; the Chinese have the stronger hand when dealing with Russia.

Putin might be manly enough to shrug off the contaminants in Chinese food, but what about the average Russian?

[Shaka-Zulu]

What country are you in? If you are in Poland then you should know that Poland also has battle hardened troops from participating in military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, the sahara, Somalia and even the Phillipines. Unless Russia uses nuclear weapons, Poland would be an equal match for Russian forces.

Lithuania, not Poland, unfortunately (in regards to defence at least)

Well there is some good news and some bad news. The good news is you share a border with Poland which means that Poland would be able to send forces to your aid the moment your government asks them to.

Lithuania had and currently has soldiers in Afghanistan gaining combat experience that would be needed to fight off a foreign invasion of their homeland. Lithuanian military forces are an active part of ISAF which the international military operation in Afghanistan. Best of all Lithuania has special operations forces engaged in combat against militants in Afghanistan. Particularly in the Kandahar area. Lithuanian forces also saw combat in Bosnia.

On the negative side you also share borders with Russia and Russian allied Byloruse. Your country is rather small leaving little room for to expell and invasion however this could overcome via a guerilla campaign and using the IED knowledge your soldiers are acquiring from the international missions they are participating in around the world. In other words if you think the Russians are going to invade you lay land mines and set up booby trapped presents for the Russian soldiers before they set foot in your territory.

But over all your country does have some battle hardened soldiers and that is what counts the most because those are the ones your people will be relying on to expel the invasion force.

[Arglorand]

Lithuania, not Poland, unfortunately (in regards to defence at least)

Well there is some good news and some bad news. The good news is you share a border with Poland which means that Poland would be able to send forces to your aid the moment your government asks them to.

Lithuania had and currently has soldiers in Afghanistan gaining combat experience that would be needed to fight off a foreign invasion of their homeland. Lithuanian military forces are an active part of ISAF which the international military operation in Afghanistan. Best of all Lithuania has special operations forces engaged in combat against militants in Afghanistan. Particularly in the Kandahar area. Lithuanian forces also saw combat in Bosnia.

On the negative side you also share borders with Russia and Russian allied Byloruse. Your country is rather small leaving little room for to expell and invasion however this could overcome via a guerilla campaign and using the IED knowledge your soldiers are acquiring from the international missions they are participating in around the world. In other words if you think the Russians are going to invade you lay land mines and set up booby trapped presents for the Russian soldiers before they set foot in your territory.

By god, I have never seen an actually somewhat at least slightly helpful defence plan for my country on NSG before.

Thank you.

[Unified Corea]

As a Chinese, I welcome this new move. Sure, this will cause our domestic prices to go up, but the farmers could use a bit more skrilla; things haven't been going their way for a while. And hey, anything to get Russia even more in our pockets... It never fails to amaze me how the Russians seem to think they're in the driver's seat in this particular partnership; the Chinese are absolutely setting the tempo. We're even making them buy Renminbi to pay us with!

When two powerful nations confront each other, the winner is often some third nation that manages to avoid participating directly in said conflict, and thus achieves victory by default.

[Blakk Metal]

Nuke Russia.

[Arglorand]

As a Chinese, I welcome this new move. Sure, this will cause our domestic prices to go up, but the farmers could use a bit more skrilla; things haven't been going their way for a while. And hey, anything to get Russia even more in our pockets... It never fails to amaze me how the Russians seem to think they're in the driver's seat in this particular partnership; the Chinese are absolutely setting the tempo. We're even making them buy Renminbi to pay us with!

When two powerful nations confront each other, the winner is often some third nation that manages to avoid participating directly in said conflict, and thus wins by default.

Jamaica.

Every conflict ever is truly won by Jamaica.

[Unified Corea]

When two powerful nations confront each other, the winner is often some third nation that manages to avoid participating directly in said conflict, and thus wins by default.

Jamaica.

Every conflict ever is truly won by Jamaica.

I was thinking more along the lines of, say, the US during the First World War.

[Imperializt Russia]

A good fight = / = equate victory by any means.


The Ukrainian equipment is outdated, while Russia is modernizing.
Its moral is to put it lightly, nonexistent, while some members' loyalty is uncertain at best.


What Ukraine would do is put Russia into an Afghanistan like situation, where the costs of invading and occupying the place outweigh any benefits. But that is a long term strategy and is mainly about insurgents rather than the army. The Ukrainian military couldn't stand up to Russia's whatsoever for very long.

I have a bit more confidence in Ukrainian military forces because I worked along side them in Iraq. The soldiers who left their posts in Crimea as soon as this all started were not veteran soldiers, they were fresh recruits just out of basic training. They hadn't be tested and molded by fire when this whole ordeal started.

If Ukraine puts the veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan in charge of the military, then it is likely that Russia would be forced to fight a war of attrition because it would be fighting against leaders whose skills are equally to those of its own military leaders.

Remember the US defeated a far bigger, more advanced, stronger and wealthier United Kingdom back in the day.

Against men who were some couple thousand miles and several months' journey from home.
Fighting for an empire that did have other things to do.

[Shaka-Zulu]

I have a bit more confidence in Ukrainian military forces because I worked along side them in Iraq. The soldiers who left their posts in Crimea as soon as this all started were not veteran soldiers, they were fresh recruits just out of basic training. They hadn't be tested and molded by fire when this whole ordeal started.

If Ukraine puts the veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan in charge of the military, then it is likely that Russia would be forced to fight a war of attrition because it would be fighting against leaders whose skills are equally to those of its own military leaders.

Remember the US defeated a far bigger, more advanced, stronger and wealthier United Kingdom back in the day.

Against men who were some couple thousand miles and several months' journey from home.
Fighting for an empire that did have other things to do.

The primary point was they were military veterans fighting for their homeland. There is a difference between fighting in a foreign country and fighting for to keep your homeland free from invasion.

[Imperializt Russia]

The primary point is that Americans did not fight and defeat "the British Empire".
They fought and defeated Imperial forces, plus reinforcements, in charge of British America.

The War of 1812 is arguably where one could claim the British Empire was "defeated" (it's quite difficult to invade your own colony after all, technically speaking), but again this was a repulsion, not defeat of "the Empire".

[Lalaki]

The United States needs to revive the manufacturing industry, domestically. We need to be more self-reliant, and also allow more EU countries to import from us instead of from China.

[Reddogkeno101]

The United States needs to revive the manufacturing industry, domestically. We need to be more self-reliant, and also allow more EU countries to import from us instead of from China.

Marshall Plan take 2?

[Shaka-Zulu]

Restoring the American manufacturing base would go quite a ways to saving the US economy from total collapse.

[Geilinor]

Restoring the American manufacturing base would go quite a ways to saving the US economy from total collapse.

The US economy is not near collapse, it's doing better than most of Europe.

[Shaka-Zulu]

Restoring the American manufacturing base would go quite a ways to saving the US economy from total collapse.

The US economy is not near collapse, it's doing better than most of Europe.

I did not mean to imply it was. Only that successful nations ensure their manufacturing sectors remain strong and healthy. After all a computer based society is pretty impoverished if there are no people making computers and parts for computers is it not?

Further, in this information age do we not need landlines for our devices to communicate and wireless towers and sattelites to communicate wirelessly? And do not these things need to be manufactured by someone?

[Geilinor]

The US economy is not near collapse, it's doing better than most of Europe.

I did not mean to imply it was. Only that successful nations ensure their manufacturing sectors remain strong and healthy. After all a computer based society is pretty impoverished if there are no people making computers and parts for computers is it not?

Further, in this information age do we not need landlines for our devices to communicate and wireless towers and sattelites to communicate wirelessly? And do not these things need to be manufactured by someone?

"Restoring" kind of implies that you want manufacturing to be as large a part of the economy as it was decades ago.

[Shaka-Zulu]

I did not mean to imply it was. Only that successful nations ensure their manufacturing sectors remain strong and healthy. After all a computer based society is pretty impoverished if there are no people making computers and parts for computers is it not?

Further, in this information age do we not need landlines for our devices to communicate and wireless towers and sattelites to communicate wirelessly? And do not these things need to be manufactured by someone?

"Restoring" kind of implies that you want manufacturing to be as large a part of the economy as it was decades ago.

I would say that manufacturing today is not as strong as it needs to be. We are a knowledge based economy. The problem is there are not enough knowledge jobs to go around. The service sector does not pay a living wage in most cases. Just ask the waitress who only gets paid $2.13 an hour and has to pray that her customers will be generous enough to leave a good tip because her employer neither wishes to pay her a decent wage nor give her more than 10 hours a week. That is why we need more manufacturing jobs. The minimum wage is based on a work week of 40 hours but you don't get that in the service sectors of the US economy. You get less money because of less hours so that employers can cheat the system.

In manufacturing this would be impossible to do. Employees would be able to not only support themselves better but also do more shopping.

[Geilinor]

"Restoring" kind of implies that you want manufacturing to be as large a part of the economy as it was decades ago.

In manufacturing this would be impossible to do.

Automation will soon make it possible and has been done in many factories.

[Lalaki]

Restoring the American manufacturing base would go quite a ways to saving the US economy from total collapse.

Not only that, it would allow the US to be more self-reliant. Trade is very important, but we need to capability to support ourselves. With China becoming the world's largest manufacturing power, the US should be on an equal playing field.

[Liberaxia]

Its very dumb for both sides I really don't want another cold war. stay out of everyone's business who cares crimea was Russian then in soviet time breshnev ( I think ) gave it to Ukraine ( or maybe it was kruchev) I don't know. But if the Ukrainian people in the east want to leave let them. Besides what doesn't make ANY sense to me is the fact all these ex-soviet states are scared shitless about a invasion. Yet NONE of them spend a decent amount on defense. If you have a problem and are worried about a invasion you should have spent more money on your military. If they to are invaded its there fault for not taking the proper precautions.

Victim blaming.

[Gauthier]

Restoring the American manufacturing base would go quite a ways to saving the US economy from total collapse.

Not only that, it would allow the US to be more self-reliant. Trade is very important, but we need to capability to support ourselves. With China becoming the world's largest manufacturing power, the US should be on an equal playing field.

And opening up jobs in the U.S. that aren't low-end service sector would increase the spending ability of the average consumer, doing more for the economy than the outsourcing binge of the Job Creators ever did.