The Mod-Sanctioned Scottish Referendum Megathread

[Olivaero]

3. Oh yes, the anti-imperialism popular front method, where the working class aligns with the national bourgeoisie. Popular with the Stalinists, Maoists and neo-Trots. However, siding with Scottish nationalism is even worse, because Scotland is not being oppressed, nor is it being attacked or threatened militarily. in fact, Salmond is happy for Scotland to be part of Nato and said an independent Scotland would mean that the US would have two allies.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27725439

You don't have to be oppressed to want independence. Self determination itself can act as an only reason. The discourse of the nationalists in Scotland is base on that, not on the hatred of the English or because they feel oppressed.

If this were the case by the way you'd end up down the road of "My Street just voted for independence!" There are obviously more things that determine whether a region gets self determination than just the ideal of self determination. I mean there are going too be some areas of Scotland which are more uniformly no than yes, I'd be willing to bet some of the majority no areas will be contiguous with the UK so by the standard of "self determination above all" surely those areas should remain in the UK? After all why is their self determination subordinate to the self determination of the wider Scotland?

[Alyakia]

You don't have to be oppressed to want independence. Self determination itself can act as an only reason. The discourse of the nationalists in Scotland is base on that, not on the hatred of the English or because they feel oppressed.

If this were the case by the way you'd end up down the road of "My Street just voted for independence!" There are obviously more things that determine whether a region gets self determination than just the ideal of self determination. I mean there are going too be some areas of Scotland which are more uniformly no than yes, I'd be willing to bet some of the majority no areas will be contiguous with the UK so by the standard of "self determination above all" surely those areas should remain in the UK? After all why is their self determination subordinate to the self determination of the wider Scotland?

the answer is fairy simple: scotland is nation, my street and the democratic republic of my toilet are not, and anyone that makes this comparison fundamentally does not understand what is going on and is literally just begging for some neo-napoleon to march in and start reciting their arguments back at them.

[Jinwoy]

If this were the case by the way you'd end up down the road of "My Street just voted for independence!" There are obviously more things that determine whether a region gets self determination than just the ideal of self determination. I mean there are going too be some areas of Scotland which are more uniformly no than yes, I'd be willing to bet some of the majority no areas will be contiguous with the UK so by the standard of "self determination above all" surely those areas should remain in the UK? After all why is their self determination subordinate to the self determination of the wider Scotland?

the answer is fairy simple: scotland is nation, my street and the democratic republic of my toilet are not, and anyone that makes this comparison fundamentally does not understand what is going on and is literally just begging for some neo-napoleon to march in and start reciting their arguments back at them.

so it really is a matter of 'we just don't like the English' anti-pragmatic self-centred egotistical nationalism?

[Alyakia]

the answer is fairy simple: scotland is nation, my street and the democratic republic of my toilet are not, and anyone that makes this comparison fundamentally does not understand what is going on and is literally just begging for some neo-napoleon to march in and start reciting their arguments back at them.

so it really is a matter of 'we just don't like the English' anti-pragmatic self-centred egotistical nationalism?

you, on the other hand, literally did not read three posts up.

[SD_Film Artists]

If this were the case by the way you'd end up down the road of "My Street just voted for independence!" There are obviously more things that determine whether a region gets self determination than just the ideal of self determination. I mean there are going too be some areas of Scotland which are more uniformly no than yes, I'd be willing to bet some of the majority no areas will be contiguous with the UK so by the standard of "self determination above all" surely those areas should remain in the UK? After all why is their self determination subordinate to the self determination of the wider Scotland?

the answer is fairy simple: scotland is nation, my street and the democratic republic of my toilet are not, and anyone that makes this comparison fundamentally does not understand what is going on and is literally just begging for some neo-napoleon to march in and start reciting their arguments back at them.

But still, where do you draw the line? Cornwall and Texas aren't nations (or Constituent Countries), but they still have independence movements. What if the Scottish Islands decided that they think Oslo would be a better captial?

[Alyakia]

the answer is fairy simple: scotland is nation, my street and the democratic republic of my toilet are not, and anyone that makes this comparison fundamentally does not understand what is going on and is literally just begging for some neo-napoleon to march in and start reciting their arguments back at them.

But still, where do you draw the line? Cornwall and Texas aren't nations (or Constituent Countries), but they still have independence movements. What if the Scottish Islands decided that they think Oslo would be a better captial?

yes, where do you draw the line? the UK? germany? france?

[Olivaero]

If this were the case by the way you'd end up down the road of "My Street just voted for independence!" There are obviously more things that determine whether a region gets self determination than just the ideal of self determination. I mean there are going too be some areas of Scotland which are more uniformly no than yes, I'd be willing to bet some of the majority no areas will be contiguous with the UK so by the standard of "self determination above all" surely those areas should remain in the UK? After all why is their self determination subordinate to the self determination of the wider Scotland?

the answer is fairy simple: scotland is nation, my street and the democratic republic of my toilet are not, and anyone that makes this comparison fundamentally does not understand what is going on and is literally just begging for some neo-napoleon to march in and start reciting their arguments back at them.

And that's fair enough. If the statement had been "nations get self determination" Then I wouldn't of said anything my point was it is not just self determination it's self determination for historical nations. However I do think the idea of a nation is pretty flexible to the point where a town or whatever could be a nation the thing that determines whether it gets recognition enough to gain the ability to demand self determination is a combination of International profile and political usefulness. Of course the size of he independence movement is important too but that can fluctuate up and down in any given "Nation" over time indeed the establishment of the Scottish parliament appears to have invigorated a previously fairly low key independence movement.

[Jinwoy]

so it really is a matter of 'we just don't like the English' anti-pragmatic self-centred egotistical nationalism?

you, on the other hand, literally did not read three posts up.

You'll forgive me if I fail to see the logic in succeeding from one of the worlds largest economics, just because you feel like self-determination might be worth a try.

Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.

[Alyakia]

you, on the other hand, literally did not read three posts up.

You'll forgive me if I fail to see the logic in succeeding from one of the worlds largest economics, just because you feel like self-determination might be worth a try.

Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.

the UK is objectively broken. we just have vastly different ideas on how to fix it.

[Alyakia]

the answer is fairy simple: scotland is nation, my street and the democratic republic of my toilet are not, and anyone that makes this comparison fundamentally does not understand what is going on and is literally just begging for some neo-napoleon to march in and start reciting their arguments back at them.

And that's fair enough. If the statement had been "nations get self determination" Then I wouldn't of said anything my point was it is not just self determination it's self determination for historical nations. However I do think the idea of a nation is pretty flexible to the point where a town or whatever could be a nation the thing that determines whether it gets recognition enough to gain the ability to demand self determination is a combination of International profile and political usefulness. Of course the size of he independence movement is important too but that can fluctuate up and down in any given "Nation" over time indeed the establishment of the Scottish parliament appears to have invigorated a previously fairly low key independence movement.

historical nations? i don't think anyone is campaigning for mercia at any serious level. are you implying scotland stopped being a nation at some point? because we're, uh, still here. always have been.

[Jinwoy]

You'll forgive me if I fail to see the logic in succeeding from one of the worlds largest economics, just because you feel like self-determination might be worth a try.

Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.

the UK is objectively broken. we just have vastly different ideas on how to fix it.

Please, elaborate.

[Alyakia]

the UK is objectively broken. we just have vastly different ideas on how to fix it.

Please, elaborate.

the west lothian question alone leaves us with a pretty big problem to solve. it just so happens that independence would help out a lot with it.

[Olivaero]

And that's fair enough. If the statement had been "nations get self determination" Then I wouldn't of said anything my point was it is not just self determination it's self determination for historical nations. However I do think the idea of a nation is pretty flexible to the point where a town or whatever could be a nation the thing that determines whether it gets recognition enough to gain the ability to demand self determination is a combination of International profile and political usefulness. Of course the size of he independence movement is important too but that can fluctuate up and down in any given "Nation" over time indeed the establishment of the Scottish parliament appears to have invigorated a previously fairly low key independence movement.

historical nations? i don't think anyone is campaigning for mercia at any serious level. are you implying scotland stopped being a nation at some point? because we're, uh, still here. always have been.

No, I mean Historically Scotland was a Nation so it gets the right to self determination. The thing that results in regions being classed as nations is largely historical Factors. Texas could probably vie for Nation hood as well but New Mexico? Eh. For an example closer to home, why is Scotland considered a nation but say Yorkshire not? At one time they were both independent. And they both have a distinct cultural identity.

[Alyakia]

historical nations? i don't think anyone is campaigning for mercia at any serious level. are you implying scotland stopped being a nation at some point? because we're, uh, still here. always have been.

No, I mean Historically Scotland was a Nation so it gets the right to self determination. The thing that results in regions being classed as nations is largely historical Factors. Texas could probably vie for Nation hood as well but New Mexico? Eh. For an example closer to home, why is Scotland considered a nation but say Yorkshire not? At one time they were both independent. And they both have a distinct cultural identity.

scotland is a nation/country presently. it''s not independent, but it's clearly a nation/country. yorkshire comparatively is as far as i know (99% sure) not a nation/country.

it's clearly not just historical factors, considering your own example of yorkshire. if you walked through glasgow and edinburgh most people would probably say that yes scotland is a nation/country, but i'm not sure how many people you'd find in yorkshire saying that yorkshire is a nation/country.

being independent at some point in the past certainly helps though, yes.

[Alyakia]

as a gesture of solidarity, downing street is flying the saltire until the end of the referendum



it did not go as planned

[Olivaero]

No, I mean Historically Scotland was a Nation so it gets the right to self determination. The thing that results in regions being classed as nations is largely historical Factors. Texas could probably vie for Nation hood as well but New Mexico? Eh. For an example closer to home, why is Scotland considered a nation but say Yorkshire not? At one time they were both independent. And they both have a distinct cultural identity.

scotland is a nation/country presently. it''s not independent, but it's clearly a nation/country. yorkshire comparatively is as far as i know (99% sure) not a nation/country.

it's clearly not just historical factors, considering your own example of yorkshire. if you walked through glasgow and edinburgh most people would probably say that yes scotland is a nation/country, but i'm not sure how many people you'd find in yorkshire saying that yorkshire is a nation/country.

being independent at some point in the past certainly helps though, yes.

So, If say Yorkshire had been given a devolution referendum as planned and had voted yes do you not think that more people would consider themselves citizens of Yorkshire than the UK? Alternatively if at some time say in the 1800's Scotland had been assimilated completely and had it's special privileges removed like the abolition of Scots Law etc, do you not think it would be less of a nation today?

I realize I'm relying a lot on hypothetical's, your correct in the current way of things if the only definition of a nation is that the majority of people within it confirm it is a nation then yeah, that's a pretty firm definition But certainly in Scotland's case the only reason why the nation status has been preserved in that it's an equal part of the Union. It's allowed it's own law etc. If that hadn't happened and a more concerted effort to assimilate it into the English system, would it still be a nation?

[Parti Ouvrier]

3. Oh yes, the anti-imperialism popular front method, where the working class aligns with the national bourgeoisie. Popular with the Stalinists, Maoists and neo-Trots. However, siding with Scottish nationalism is even worse, because Scotland is not being oppressed, nor is it being attacked or threatened militarily. in fact, Salmond is happy for Scotland to be part of Nato and said an independent Scotland would mean that the US would have two allies.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27725439

You don't have to be oppressed to want independence. Self determination itself can act as an only reason. The discourse of the nationalists in Scotland is base on that, not on the hatred of the English or because they feel oppressed.

I never said you did. It was a response to this...

A lot of nationalism are opposed to imperialism.

An opposition to imperialism either implies you're being oppressed, or the Scottish left-nationalists delude themselves into thinking they're opposing imperialism because of the inconvenience of moving Trident elsewhere, neglecting the fact that an independent Scotland won't be innocent, it will be a part of Nato, still think a yes vote is (in your words), "opposed to imperialism"?

[SD_Film Artists]

But still, where do you draw the line? Cornwall and Texas aren't nations (or Constituent Countries), but they still have independence movements. What if the Scottish Islands decided that they think Oslo would be a better captial?

yes, where do you draw the line? the UK? germany? france?

I think a better comparison would be the EU rather than Germany or France, but then that's another issue for another thread. My point was that if you support independence then it appears to be rather arbitrary or hypocritical if independence/self-determination is good for one group but not the other.

[-Carthage-]

I for one fully support Scotland's right to independence and for the same reason I support breaking California up into smaller seperate states.

1. The government is too big and too intrusive.

2. All the mandatory multiculturalism is great but only if you are member of a favored group. If your group is not granted special previleges then your culture will be actively suppressed. To put it simply multiculturalism is one big failure and has always been the worlds biggest hoax.

Government should be small. States should be small. Government ought not dictate what you do in your personal life nor should it be restricting your right of free speech just because some selfish pricked might be offended.

[Obeyistan]

Relevant:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-the-foreign-office-devo-units-drive-to-kill-off-independence.23269484
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10LONDON126_a.html#efmBJ6BSa

[SD_Film Artists]

Apparently David Cameron and the other main Westminster leaders are heading to Scotland to support the Better Together vote. I would've thought that if anything the Better Together campaigners would prefer to have Westminster politics at arm’s length and keep to a grassroots/business approach. If "because the Tories and Ed Miliband said so" is their idea of a secret weapon then I worry for them.

[Olivaero]

Apparently David Cameron and the other main Westminster leaders are heading to Scotland to support the Better Together vote. I would've thought that if anything the Better Together campaigners would prefer to have Westminster politics at arm’s length and keep to a grassroots/business approach. If "because the Tories and Ed Miliband said so" is their idea of a secret weapon then I worry for them.

They should leave it to Gordon Brown. Although consider that they may be down there to announce exactly what powers are going to be devolved to Scotland after the referendum hopefully they've struck a firm bargain between them and there'll be no infighting then post announcement they swiftly pack up and fuck off and leave the last few days to the established No Campaign.

[Machtergreifung]

Relevant:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-the-foreign-office-devo-units-drive-to-kill-off-independence.23269484
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10LONDON126_a.html#efmBJ6BSa

That is interesting. I can't say that I'm suprised though.

[Memell]

Relevant:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/revealed-the-foreign-office-devo-units-drive-to-kill-off-independence.23269484
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10LONDON126_a.html#efmBJ6BSa

That is interesting. I can't say that I'm suprised though.

...Very interesting.

[Obeyistan]

That is interesting. I can't say that I'm suprised though.

...Very interesting.

Thanks to collectives like Wikileaks and Anonymous we can have the truth. No oppressor has their secrets safe with these guys around.