The Mod-Sanctioned Scottish Referendum Megathread

[Kingdoms of Cal]

The whole referendum is absurd and a threat to the whole British system of government...which is already far too "americanized"

Britain is not supposed to be a democracy, let alone a direct one. Yes, the United Kingdom has representation: and that is excellent, people should have a say in government, but government cannot be based on immediate populist whims. Previously the house of lords served as a counter-balance to populism, the same with the monarch, but both have lost all their real power and now there is no barrier to stop cheap populism and treason.

That said, Scotland should only be allowed to leave if the westminster parliament accepted it. Scotland accepted the union when the Scottish parliament voted for it, now its parliament needs to vote for it to leave: and its parliament is the westminster one, as per the acts of union, not that ridiculous thing in Holyrood.
Why? because England, Wales and Northern Ireland are also part of the Union and they have a right not to accept a unilateral Scottish secession. In fact not even the US would accept this way of doing things since unilateral secession is ilegal!

Parliament should oust Cameron, and have the army arrest that traitor Salmond.

That part I do agree with.

See the Edinburgh agreement, the PM of the uk has agreed to abide by the vote. The Scottish referendum act means that parliament did.

[Parti Ouvrier]

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/imageFiles/Image/2014/2419/sw2419scottish.jpg
^The Socialist Opportunists Party.

Didn't you know? A Petrostate and nationalism are the true way to spread socialism throughout the world!

But in all seriousness, I despair that they're putting national politics ahead of class politics.

[The Nihilistic view]

That part I do agree with.

See the Edinburgh agreement, the PM of the uk has agreed to abide by the vote. The Scottish refund act means that parliament did.

What has that got to do with my tongue in cheek post? Unless you're implying that the Edinburgh expressly sets out the Salmond can't be arrested for Treason ever for any reason.

[The British Galactic Empire]

The whole referendum is absurd and a threat to the whole British system of government...which is already far too "americanized"

Britain is not supposed to be a democracy, let alone a direct one. Yes, the United Kingdom has representation: and that is excellent, people should have a say in government, but government cannot be based on immediate populist whims. Previously the house of lords served as a counter-balance to populism, the same with the monarch, but both have lost all their real power and now there is no barrier to stop cheap populism and treason.

That said, Scotland should only be allowed to leave if the westminster parliament accepted it. Scotland accepted the union when the Scottish parliament voted for it, now its parliament needs to vote for it to leave: and its parliament is the westminster one, as per the acts of union, not that ridiculous thing in Holyrood.
Why? because England, Wales and Northern Ireland are also part of the Union and they have a right not to accept a unilateral Scottish secession. In fact not even the US would accept this way of doing things since unilateral secession is ilegal!

Parliament should oust Cameron, and have the army arrest that traitor Salmond.

do you think the UK should leave the EU? if so, do you think the rest of the union should accept he UKs unilateral leaving? especially since there is no procedure for leaving? just trying to figure out how you work here. also thank you for admitting you literally hate democracy, since we're going american style.

Yes, let's compare oranges and potatoes!

The EU is not a state (and thank god for that), it is a Intergovernmentalist Organization, any member state of the EU may leave it at any time. The fact that the eurocrats have failed to write a "we want to leave" clause if irrelevant. The UK has an army and the EU has none, they have no way to stop Britain leaving anyway.

Scotland signed a treaty with England (an through England also Wales and Ireland) uniting the two realms, creating a common state. That said, no state allows for unilateral secession: not the US, not France, not Germany, no one....except the UK. The EU is not a common state by the way.

And you misread that, i don't hate democracy, i simply do not see it as a universal system that every country should have or want. I value representation, rule of law and sensible government as more important.

[Kingdoms of Cal]

Didn't you know? A Petrostate and nationalism are the true way to spread socialism throughout the world!

But in all seriousness, I despair that they're putting national politics before class politics.

Ever heard of the Radical Independence Campaign they have a different view. England has had it the best is scotland being a socialist becon to the north and hope the English wake up.

[Greater Mackonia]

Interesting that a state could come into creation where almost half the population actively do not want to live under it, shows the futility of Democracy really.

[The Nihilistic view]

Interesting that a state could come into creation where almost half the population actively do not want to live under it, shows the futility of Democracy really.

Actually probably more than half. Not everybody will vote or can vote. So most likely less than half the population will have voted for it.

[Alyakia]

i too support using the army to crush democratic movements. furthermore,

Derp. The SNP does not stand for the Salmond Nation Party.

oh. right. sure. next time iran arrests the leader of a democratic movement we'll be sure to make this very very important distinction.

do you think the UK should leave the EU? if so, do you think the rest of the union should accept he UKs unilateral leaving? especially since there is no procedure for leaving? just trying to figure out how you work here. also thank you for admitting you literally hate democracy, since we're going american style.

Yes, let's compare oranges and potatoes!

The EU is not a state (and thank god for that), it is a Intergovernmentalist Organization, any member state of the EU may leave the at any time. Scotland signed a treaty with England (an through England also Wales and Ireland) uniting the two realms, creating a common state. That said, no state allows for unilateral secession: not the US, not France, not Germany, no one....except the UK. The EU is not a common state by the way.

And you misread that, i don't hate democracy, i simply do not see it as a system that every country should have or want. I value representation, rule of law and sensible government as more important.

the EU does not allow any state to leave any time. or, at least, this is not stated. there is no leaving procedure. why do you have any more of a right to leave the EU unilaterally than scotland has to leave the UK unilaterally?

should latvia and ukraine have needed to get russias approval before they were allowed to leave the USSR?

[Kingdoms of Cal]

See the Edinburgh agreement, the PM of the uk has agreed to abide by the vote. The Scottish refund act means that parliament did.

What has that got to do with my tongue in cheek post? Unless you're implying that the Edinburgh expressly sets out the Salmond can't be arrested for Treason ever for any reason.

Treason against the crown not parliament. More to the point if he was arrested there would be a 100% Yes vote. No one out side westminster likes the place.

[Greater Mackonia]

Interesting that a state could come into creation where almost half the population actively do not want to live under it, shows the futility of Democracy really.

Actually probably more than half. Not everybody will vote or can vote. So most likely less than half the population will have voted for it.

Indeed.

[Alyakia]

Actually probably more than half. Not everybody will vote or can vote. So most likely less than half the population will have voted for it.

Indeed.

please, tell us your alternative to democracy that would not allow something like that to happen.

[Bentus]

Yes, let's compare oranges and potatoes!

The EU is not a state (and thank god for that), it is a Intergovernmentalist Organization, any member state of the EU may leave it at any time. The fact that the eurocrats have failed to write a "we want to leave" clause if irrelevant. The UK has an army and the EU has none, they have no way to stop Britain leaving anyway.

Scotland signed a treaty with England (an through England also Wales and Ireland) uniting the two realms, creating a common state. That said, no state allows for unilateral secession: not the US, not France, not Germany, no one....except the UK. The EU is not a common state by the way.

And you misread that, i don't hate democracy, i simply do not see it as a universal system that every country should have or want. I value representation, rule of law and sensible government as more important.

This is coming from beyond the border here, but I always thought the UK was a country-made-up-of-countries type deal? In the sense that none of the members explicitly gave up nationhood with the union but agreed to work together? Never really made sense in my mind but that's politics I figure - especially back then. On the other hand the US is a country made up of states - bit like Australia - or the EU is an organization made up of countries. In that case would it not be some kind of hybrid of orange and potato rather than one or the other?

Personally, that's really the reason I'm following this so much. In the grand scheme of things, what you guys are doing is amazing. A (relatively) civil discussion and conversation about the independence of part of a country. When I look around the world at places like Catalonia, Iraqi Kurdistan or even the deal in Ukraine I've got to tip my hat to you folks up north.

[Greater Mackonia]

Indeed.

please, tell us your alternative to democracy that would not allow something like that to happen.

My alternative to Democracy is irrelevant to this thread and I doubt you really want to hear me waffle on about it when it is irrelevant this question because it does not necessarily aim to prevent these things from happening nor does it claim to, but to somewhat answer your question I would not allow a referendum to take place in the beginning.

[The British Galactic Empire]

do you think the UK should leave the EU? if so, do you think the rest of the union should accept he UKs unilateral leaving? especially since there is no procedure for leaving? just trying to figure out how you work here. also thank you for admitting you literally hate democracy, since we're going american style.

Yes, let's compare oranges and potatoes!

The EU is not a state (and thank god for that), it is a Intergovernmentalist Organization, any member state of the EU may leave the at any time. Scotland signed a treaty with England (an through England also Wales and Ireland) uniting the two realms, creating a common state. That said, no state allows for unilateral secession: not the US, not France, not Germany, no one....except the UK. The EU is not a common state by the way.

And you misread that, i don't hate democracy, i simply do not see it as a system that every country should have or want. I value representation, rule of law and sensible government as more important.

the EU does not allow any state to leave any time. or, at least, this is not stated. there is no leaving procedure. why do you have any more of a right to leave the EU unilaterally than scotland has to leave the UK unilaterally?

should latvia and ukraine have needed to get russias approval before they were allowed to leave the USSR?[/quote]

Ok, im only going to say this one more time...if you can't understand it then it's your problem.

The. EU. Is. Not. A. State. Nor. A. Federation. It has no sovereignty, it has no armed forces, it is not a sovereign STATE.

The two cases are not comparable. If the UK chose to leave the EU tomorrow it would be the same as the US leaving the OAS. Scotland leaving the union would be the same as California unilaterally leaving the US....

And no, it would not have to ask Russia since Latvia never voted to join the soviet union, it was conquered so it had every right to leave.

Scotland did vote to join the Union, unlike what a lot of people think, England never conquered Scotland. Scotland is an equal parter in the UK (actually no since it has more rights than England), not a conquered nation.

[Alyakia]

please, tell us your alternative to democracy that would not allow something like that to happen.

My alternative to Democracy is irrelevant to this thread and I doubt you really want to hear me waffle on about it when it is irrelevant this question because it does not necessarily aim to prevent these things from happening nor does it claim to, but to somewhat answer your question I would not allow a referendum to take place in the beginning.

so in response to the idea of the idea that "a state could come into creation where almost half the population actively do not want to live under it" is to create a situation where you could force people to live under a state regardless of how many of them want it? seems kinda silly but ok.

[Pesda]

Yes, let's compare oranges and potatoes!

The EU is not a state (and thank god for that), it is a Intergovernmentalist Organization, any member state of the EU may leave it at any time. The fact that the eurocrats have failed to write a "we want to leave" clause if irrelevant. The UK has an army and the EU has none, they have no way to stop Britain leaving anyway.

Scotland signed a treaty with England (an through England also Wales and Ireland) uniting the two realms, creating a common state. That said, no state allows for unilateral secession: not the US, not France, not Germany, no one....except the UK. The EU is not a common state by the way.

And you misread that, i don't hate democracy, i simply do not see it as a universal system that every country should have or want. I value representation, rule of law and sensible government as more important.

This is coming from beyond the border here, but I always thought the UK was a country-made-up-of-countries type deal? In the sense that none of the members explicitly gave up nationhood with the union but agreed to work together? Never really made sense in my mind but that's politics I figure - especially back then. On the other hand the US is a country made up of states - bit like Australia - or the EU is an organization made up of countries. In that case would it not be some kind of hybrid of orange and potato rather than one or the other?

Personally, that's really the reason I'm following this so much. In the grand scheme of things, what you guys are doing is amazing. A (relatively) civil discussion and conversation about the independence of part of a country. When I look around the world at places like Catalonia, Iraqi Kurdistan or even the deal in Ukraine I've got to tip my hat to you folks up north.

Not all the nations of the UK agreed to enter.

[The Nihilistic view]

What has that got to do with my tongue in cheek post? Unless you're implying that the Edinburgh expressly sets out the Salmond can't be arrested for Treason ever for any reason.

Treason against the crown not parliament. More to the point if he was arrested there would be a 100% Yes vote. No one out side westminster likes the place.

See the Edinburgh agreement, the PM of the uk has agreed to abide by the vote. The Scottish refund act means that parliament did.

What has that got to do with my tongue in cheek post? Unless you're implying that the Edinburgh expressly sets out the Salmond can't be arrested for Treason ever for any reason.

[Parti Ouvrier]

But in all seriousness, I despair that they're putting national politics before class politics.

Ever heard of the Radical Independence Campaign they have a different view. England has had it the best is scotland being a socialist becon to the north and hope the English wake up.

That really shows a lack of vision for socialism. Anyway, Scotland won't be a socialist beacon if all you're doing is tailing the SNP with their plans for cuts to corporation tax.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-natio ... dom-523547

[Greater Mackonia]

My alternative to Democracy is irrelevant to this thread and I doubt you really want to hear me waffle on about it when it is irrelevant this question because it does not necessarily aim to prevent these things from happening nor does it claim to, but to somewhat answer your question I would not allow a referendum to take place in the beginning.

so in response to the idea of the idea that "a state could come into creation where almost half the population actively do not want to live under it" is to create a situation where you could force people to live under a state regardless of how many of them want it? seems kinda silly but ok.

I am not arguing this from the perspective of wanting more Democracy, that (maybe slightly facetious) comment was aimed at the arrogance of those who claim any sort of vote on these measures is truly representative. You are quite right, many no doubt do not want to live under this state; myself included.

[The Nihilistic view]

Indeed.

please, tell us your alternative to democracy that would not allow something like that to happen.

This sort of issue might be the one time compulsory voting might be a good idea.

[Bentus]

Not all the nations of the UK agreed to enter.

True. Wales and Ireland were conquered weren't they? (<=No idea) But at the same time technically not all of the US wanted to join together at first either as far as I'm aware. But even if at first the feeling wasn't necessarily countries within countries co-operating, is that not the set-up that's going on now? Legally at least?

[Olivaero]

Didn't you know? A Petrostate and nationalism are the true way to spread socialism throughout the world!

perhaps we could have some form of nationalism and socialism. hmm.

Sounds terrific! I'd suggest finding some snazzy far eastern symbols to represent it as well!

Didn't you know? A Petrostate and nationalism are the true way to spread socialism throughout the world!

But in all seriousness, I despair that they're putting national politics ahead of class politics.

Yep. Whilst simultaneously abandoning the English, Welsh and Northern Irish working class to even more domination by the elite in London.

[Alyakia]

Ok, im only going to say this one more time...if you can't understand it then it's your problem.

The. EU. Is. Not. A. State. Nor. A. Federation. It has no sovereignty, it has no armed forces, it is not a sovereign STATE.

The two cases are not comparable. If the UK chose to leave the EU tomorrow it would be the same as the US leaving the OAS. Scotland leaving the union would be the same as California unilaterally leaving the US....

the OAS has nowhere near the kind of power that the EU does.

And no, it would not have to ask Russia since Latvia never voted to join the soviet union, it was conquered so it had every right to leave.

Scotland did vote to join the Union, unlike what a lot of people think, England never conquered Scotland. Scotland is an equal parter in the UK (actually no since it has more rights than England), not a conquered nation.

oh, so most of the united states can leave then? probably most of france and germany as well, now that i think about it. they definitely never voted to join.

if scotland is an equal partner that voluntarily joined, then why can't it leave? is it because the UK has an army and the (trigger warning: EU) EU does not?

Not all the nations of the UK agreed to enter.

yes, wales was forcibly annexed to england. i suppose that gives them every right to leave, huh?

[The Victorian Empire]

I hope Scotland achieves independence, and if they do, they should definitely join NATO and stay out of the EU.

[The British Galactic Empire]

Not all the nations of the UK agreed to enter.

True. Wales and Ireland were conquered weren't they? (<=No idea) But at the same time technically not all of the US wanted to join together at first either as far as I'm aware. But even if at first the feeling wasn't necessarily countries within countries co-operating, is that not the set-up that's going on now? Legally at least?

Wales was conquered a long long time ago, but has had representation in the westminster parliament for a very long time (longer than even Scotland or Ireland).

Ireland had a parliament and it voted for Union merging with the Kingdom of Great Britain and forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

And no. Legally the UK is a unitary state with three semi-autonomous regions...the country within a country is just a poetic thing, the UK is not a federal state in any way.

The difference is that the UK can dissolve the devolved governments at any time, while the US federal government has no authority to dissolve any state of the Union. This is because the devolved governments have no sovereignty, and the US federal government and the States share sovereignty.