The Mod-Sanctioned Scottish Referendum Megathread

[The Archregimancy]

So, mae wee sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beasties of NSG...

This is the Scottish referendum megathread, started by the moderator team in preparation for the September Scottish referendum. With the vote now slightly over a month away, the time has come to direct discussion towards a single thread.

Some ground rules:

1) Potential trolling and flamebaiting will be monitored very closely. In particular, there will be little tolerance for supposedly "jokey" slang terms used to refer to residents of specific parts of the United Kingdom. Fair warning: dinnae try tae use Scots when flamin' - so nae pretendin' 'glaikit' is a term ay endearment, for example; I will ken.

2) No gloating after the election result comes in, whatever the result might be. Gloating will bring swift moderator action.

3) While discussion can be fairly wide-ranging, do try and keep it associated with the topic. For example, a discussion of the implications of a yes or no vote on the devolved assemblies of Wales, Northern Ireland, and/or Catalonia would be acceptable; a detailed discussion of the constitutional arrangements at Stormont and/or of Spanish legal restrictions on regional referenda without any reference to the Scottish election would constitute a derail.

4) Discussion should be in English, please, not Scots or Gaelic (with some literary licence - quoting [or misquoting] Burns is hardly going to be considered actionable).


And to give discussion a gentle push...

Polls continue to indicate that Scots will likely reject independence by a fairly substantial margin, with no real impact from the recent Commonwealth Games.

Do you think there's any chance of substantial movement in the polls at this late stage, or are we realistically only really considering the impact of a forthcoming "no" vote at this point?

[Dalcaria]

Frankly, as someone who is part Scot, I do hope they vote no. Before anyone brings up how terrible the English are, I'm part English too, so I can hardly hate myself can I? Anyways, I think the UK has done a lot of great things together and will continue to do so if they stay united.

That in mind, here are my thoughts to your question Arch: Do you think there's any chance of substantial movement in the polls at this late stage, or are we realistically only really considering the impact of a forthcoming "no" vote at this point?

I think Scots may vote no, not necessarily because of pride in the UK, but perhaps because of fear of the unknown. Thought Salmond has tried to make this look like a very economically profitable situation, it's very hard to read what the outcome will be. Add to that that England, Scotland, and the rest of the UK have SERIOUS historical ties to each other and years of bonding, and I think a lot of Scots would also be concerned for how that will turn out. What will their relationships with the rest of the UK be like? What will their future be like? If independence doesn't work, how will they rejoin the UK if they want to? Lot's of questions, concerns, and doubts I think, in the end unity just looks like a safer way to go. And frankly, as a part Scot, I love Scotland, but I love the UK even more. Without Scotland, the Great Britain would be a lot less Great.

My opinions only of course, but I do hope they stay together. "Unity to be real must stand the severest strain without breaking." Ghandi

[Carbon based lifeforms]

I don't see what Scotland has to gain from independence. They already have their own government, they make their own decisions regarding all local matters. Independence would just create a lot of extra bureaucracy, with Scotland needing to replicate all the institutions that are currently centralized in London, e.g. military, foreign relations, etc. They're counting on their North Sea oil to pay for this extra expense, but that's pretty optimistic.

Frankly, three hundred years after unification, which has overall been a good thing for Scotland, it's time for the Scottish nationalists to get over themselves and realize that flag-waving is a hobby, not a serious job.

Apparently only 57% of Scottish people agree with that, but eh, it'll do. At least if they lose this referendum, the nationalists will keep quiet for a few years.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

No Scots or Gaelic?

Typical unionists with their cultural oppression denying the Scots their voice

[Sahrani South]

Hope brave Scotland will be free from English rule, and stay in EU.

[The Archregimancy]

No Scots or Gaelic?

Typical unionists with their cultural oppression denying the Scots their voice

Dinnae fash yerself, lassie; they're jus' leids.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

No Scots or Gaelic?

Typical unionists with their cultural oppression denying the Scots their voice

Dinnae fash yerself, lassie; they're jus' leids.

Is dóigh liom.

[The Archregimancy]

Dinnae fash yerself, lassie; they're jus' leids.

Is dóigh liom.

As long as we're on the topic of your opinion....

Care to give us a republican perspective on the issue from the other side of the North Channel? Last I remember you were hoping for a yes vote.

[San Mazer]

Anyone interested in the Salmond-Darling debate?

Will it change anything?

[Nimzonia]

Assuming Scotland votes no, how long would it be until the next referendum? I get the impression that some people think, if independence is rejected in one referendum, they should keep getting do overs until they get the result they want. I don't see why the question needs to be asked more than once per generation, 25 years or so.

[Murkwood]

I really want Scotland to say with the U.K, but the pro-Union people are having a really weak showing. They need to make a much better case than the one they are currently making.

The Economist, however, is doing a very good job pushing a pro-Union stance.

http://www.economist.com/node/21552564
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/2 ... ave-us-way

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Is dóigh liom.

As long as we're on the topic of your opinion....

Care to give us a republican perspective on the issue from the other side of the North Channel? Last I remember you were hoping for a yes vote.

I believe a Yes vote is in the best interests of the Scottish people but I won't be throwing my vote in (I never have voted in GB). I'm not so hopeful as to think it will have any dramatic effect on the cause of Irish republicanism. There may be a further alienation of the NI unionists from GB but then that's nothing new given the population of GB seeming to view them as something to be looked down upon with a hypocritical "at least we're not like that lot". All in all i'll enjoy plenty of Schadenfreude when the NI unionists get their knickers in a twist following Scottish independence and excitement about seeing first hand the new Scotland coming into being.

[The Blaatschapen]

If Scotland gains independence, does that mean that the UK has to change its name from "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" to something else? Since it won't be Great Britain anymore.

Also, how would things go afterwards (or between the vote and the actual independence)? I assume that Scotland immediately wants to join the EU and various other organizations (NATO, UN). How would that work out? Pre-approved membership solutions? Something else?

[Rutannia]

If Scotland gains independence, does that mean that the UK has to change its name from "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" to something else? Since it won't be Great Britain anymore.

Also, how would things go afterwards (or between the vote and the actual independence)? I assume that Scotland immediately wants to join the EU and various other organizations (NATO, UN). How would that work out? Pre-approved membership solutions? Something else?

It was stated that rump.UK (the rest of the UK excluding Scotland) would inherit the EU membership, NATO, UN, etc. However most Scots should be concerned with the fact that Junker doesn't want to expand the EU for another 5 years or more, and what currency are they going to use anyway? rump UK won't let them use the £ and Scots wouldn't want to adopt the Euro in its current state.

I have brothers in the RAF and Navy and obviously the RAF wants to stick together, but some Navy personal including my brother are like "I hope they vote Yes so Trident moves south of the border". Unfortunately a few English want them to bugger off, so to speak, I'm not one of them, I hope they stick around, but it's their choice.

[The Blaatschapen]

If Scotland gains independence, does that mean that the UK has to change its name from "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" to something else? Since it won't be Great Britain anymore.

Also, how would things go afterwards (or between the vote and the actual independence)? I assume that Scotland immediately wants to join the EU and various other organizations (NATO, UN). How would that work out? Pre-approved membership solutions? Something else?

It was stated that rump.UK (the rest of the UK excluding Scotland) would inherit the EU membership, NATO, UN, etc.

That's how it normally goes. The rump state retains memberships, treaties, etc. Serbia is the continuation of Yugoslavia for example, when it comes to international political matters.

However most Scots should be concerned with the fact that Junker doesn't want to expand the EU for another 5 years or more, and what currency are they going to use anyway? rump UK won't let them use the £ and Scots wouldn't want to adopt the Euro in its current state.

What do you mean with the UK not letting them use the pound?

Not having any say in the regulation of the currency? Fair enough.

However, there are plenty of states which just borrow someone else's coin internally without having a say in its regulation (eg. Montenegro uses the Euro). So they could to that, couldn't they?

[Lalaki]

I support what the Scottish people want. Democracy can solve this.

[Nimzonia]

Hope brave Scotland will be free from English rule

Sometimes I'm in favour of Scottish independence, just so I never have to read any of this bullshit again. Yes, freedom for the poor wee victims.

[Othelos]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if Scotland broke away, but I don't think it would be a good thing in the long-term.

[Estado Paulista]

So, mae wee sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beasties of NSG...

Is this Scottish or Pirate?

[Utceforp]

I really don't understand the motivation behind Scottish independence. At least Quebec has the incredibly flimsy justification of "your dead ancestors conquered our dead ancestors", but Scotland doesn't even have that, considering it was a completely peaceful unification in the first place.

[The Tripartite Republics of Rome]

I don't see what Scotland has to gain from independence. They already have their own government, they make their own decisions regarding all local matters. Independence would just create a lot of extra bureaucracy, with Scotland needing to replicate all the institutions that are currently centralized in London, e.g. military, foreign relations, etc. They're counting on their North Sea oil to pay for this extra expense, but that's pretty optimistic.

Frankly, three hundred years after unification, which has overall been a good thing for Scotland, it's time for the Scottish nationalists to get over themselves and realize that flag-waving is a hobby, not a serious job.

Apparently only 57% of Scottish people agree with that, but eh, it'll do. At least if they lose this referendum, the nationalists will keep quiet for a few years.

I have to agree. How would Scotland fit in with the EU? Would they maintain that 'special relationship' which London fosters with Washington DC? Honestly, and I'm not criticizing Scots desires for or against independence, but have the pro-independence groups really given that any serious consideration?

[Canaore]

I really don't understand the motivation behind Scottish independence. At least Quebec has the incredibly flimsy justification of "your dead ancestors conquered our dead ancestors", but Scotland doesn't even have that, considering it was a completely peaceful unification in the first place.

I'm not pro-Scottish independence, but there's the fact that until the 20th Century, Scotland was pratically treated like a colony by London, the fact that Scotland has existed as an entity for a very long time yet they still hold no significant autonomy, and the fact that more often than not, their political interests are ignored by the South.

[Rutannia]

It was stated that rump.UK (the rest of the UK excluding Scotland) would inherit the EU membership, NATO, UN, etc.

That's how it normally goes. The rump state retains memberships, treaties, etc. Serbia is the continuation of Yugoslavia for example, when it comes to international political matters.

However most Scots should be concerned with the fact that Junker doesn't want to expand the EU for another 5 years or more, and what currency are they going to use anyway? rump UK won't let them use the £ and Scots wouldn't want to adopt the Euro in its current state.

What do you mean with the UK not letting them use the pound?

Not having any say in the regulation of the currency? Fair enough.

However, there are plenty of states which just borrow someone else's coin internally without having a say in its regulation (eg. Montenegro uses the Euro). So they could to that, couldn't they?

Well the Bank of England has made it quite clear if they are to use the pound they have to remain in the UK, they could in theory adopt the Euro, but do Scots really want to do that with the state it is in?

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

That's how it normally goes. The rump state retains memberships, treaties, etc. Serbia is the continuation of Yugoslavia for example, when it comes to international political matters.



What do you mean with the UK not letting them use the pound?

Not having any say in the regulation of the currency? Fair enough.

However, there are plenty of states which just borrow someone else's coin internally without having a say in its regulation (eg. Montenegro uses the Euro). So they could to that, couldn't they?

Well the Bank of England has made it quite clear if they are to use the pound they have to remain in the UK, they could in theory adopt the Euro, but do Scots really want to do that with the state it is in?

No the BoE have simply refused a currency union. It's not a case of shouting "nu uh you guys can't use our money. Don't even touch it"

At which point there were calls to ditch any sharing of debt. And so on and so on.

[Utceforp]

I really don't understand the motivation behind Scottish independence. At least Quebec has the incredibly flimsy justification of "your dead ancestors conquered our dead ancestors", but Scotland doesn't even have that, considering it was a completely peaceful unification in the first place.

I'm not pro-Scottish independence, but there's the fact that until the 20th Century, Scotland was pratically treated like a colony by London, the fact that Scotland has existed as an entity for a very long time yet they still hold no significant autonomy, and the fact that more often than not, their political interests are ignored by the South.

The oldest person alive today was born in 1898 and is Japanese, so nobody involved in that is alive today.