Abortion: human right?

[Ifreann]

I have never heard a foetus giggle.

When little brother was on his way i didn't hear any ROPLs.

Not the humorous type I guess, have you looked at any Fetsus yet, also look at one early in development too, they might be two inches long but they look just like a little baby.

So do pigs at the same stage of development. So do lots of things at that stage.

---

What is undeniable is that it is killing.
It is not unlawful to kill a cow. Unless it's not yours, that's destruction of property.
But still not murder.

True, the dictionary definition of murder seems to agree with you. But that is addressing "unlawful" in reference to man-made law. On what grounds is killing animals not unlawful in, say, natural law?

What natural law?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Please expand upon this denial of women's rights.

The woman doesn't have no rights. She doesn't have shit when the baby's involved, when her body is involved it's OK. But when there's another life inside her body, developed or undeveloped? She better move aside.

Yeah no, bodily sovereignty is a thing. That life developing inside of her is fully dependent on her to live so it's her choice what happens to it, just like if you had to be hooked up to my body to live I could say to bad bud and disconnect you because it's my body and it's my choice.

[Atlanticatia]

No it's not, full stop.

A fetus is what I consider to be a life. In certain stages it can kick, laugh, feel, etc. Would you agree that little fetus(I consider it baby anyway) in that womb that's kicking should be aborted?

When are fetuses laughing? I just had to point this one out.

Also, fetuses can't feel or kick until late in the pregnancy, in most cases. Generally once they're viable, they start getting closer to being babies, but a fetus in the first 20 weeks or so of a pregnancy cannot do anything remotely similar to a baby.

[Kainesia]

Please expand upon this denial of women's rights.

With pleasure, so half the time in an abortion a little women is killed, about 25 million have been killed in the US alone since 1973, if not aborted they could have grown up and had an abortion themselves, in addition to maybe coming up with the cure for cancer.

Whenever a man is stupid enough to spread his seed and not impregnate a woman, 500,000,000 potential futures of unknown awesomeness are extinguished.

[Arkolon]

Meat is murder. I don't see how this is deniable, even by meat-eaters.

That's some pretty liberal stuff you're spouting there, Ark. Sure you're not a closet socialist?

I'm for anything and everything, as long as it's noncoercively voluntary.

Killing animals for meat isn't mutually voluntary, which is why I oppose it. EDIT: And also why abortion is a touchy subject.

But no, free-market ultra-capitalism over here

[Northern-Armeania]

With pleasure, so half the time in an abortion a little women is killed, about 25 million have been killed in the US alone since 1973, if not aborted they could have grown up and had an abortion themselves, in addition to maybe coming up with the cure for cancer.

Whenever a man is stupid enough to spread his seed and not impregnate a woman, 500,000,000 potential futures of unknown awesomeness are extinguished.

but they will never exist, unlike Fetus that already exist.

[Arkolon]

Not the humorous type I guess, have you looked at any Fetsus yet, also look at one early in development too, they might be two inches long but they look just like a little baby.

So do pigs at the same stage of development. So do lots of things at that stage.

---

True, the dictionary definition of murder seems to agree with you. But that is addressing "unlawful" in reference to man-made law. On what grounds is killing animals not unlawful in, say, natural law?

What natural law?

All things Nozickianly Lockean.

[Kainesia]

That's some pretty liberal stuff you're spouting there, Ark. Sure you're not a closet socialist?

I'm for anything and everything, as long as it's noncoercively voluntary.

Killing animals for meat isn't mutually voluntary, which is why I oppose it.

But no, free-market ultra-capitalism over here

Survival of the fittest bro, that pig is going in my stomach.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Whenever a man is stupid enough to spread his seed and not impregnate a woman, 500,000,000 potential futures of unknown awesomeness are extinguished.

but they will never exist, unlike Fetus that already exist.

Are you saying sperm doesn't exist?

[Kainesia]

Whenever a man is stupid enough to spread his seed and not impregnate a woman, 500,000,000 potential futures of unknown awesomeness are extinguished.

but they will never exist, unlike Fetus that already exist.

Not being OVERLY serious here buddy.

[Kainesia]

but they will never exist, unlike Fetus that already exist.

Are you saying sperm doesn't exist?

His might not.

[Northern-Armeania]

Does anyone deny that this http://americanpregnancy.org/content/up ... 183657.jpg
has a right to remain alive? This one is early in development by the way.

[Sin and Debauchery]

Im both pro-choice and pro-life, which may seem weird but really isn't. I also don't like when people vote on these issues because it is not something on which you should apply the vote of the majority, nor is the opinion of the majority relevant.

I support a woman's right to choose, it's their body and i refuse to order around anyone about what to do with their body.

That said, i hate abortion, and although i wouldn't go as far as the "abortion is murder" crowd (it's really not, because it is not a sentient being up to a certain stage), i cannot deny the fact that a fetus is life, and somewhere in the near future (barring a terrible accident or disease) it will be a human being.

Im not an extremist on the issue, i do believe that having an abortion after the being becomes partially sentient IS murder since after that point it is a human being and all human beings have a right to live (according to the universal declaration of human rights). The people who do it should be prosecuted (which is why it creeps me out a bit that the "yes, anytime while the fetus is still in her body" is winning"....).

Before that time in the fetus development i believe it is a human right to have an abortion, since it is a personal choice.

All that said, the "born free" is a matter of wording. It's really pathetic when people use semantics to try to win arguments instead of using the spirit of the law.

[Neutraligon]

Does anyone deny that this http://americanpregnancy.org/content/up ... 183657.jpg
has a right to remain alive? This one is early in development by the way.

Seriously stop with the appeal to emotion.

[Northern-Armeania]

but they will never exist, unlike Fetus that already exist.

Are you saying sperm doesn't exist?

Its not a new human person until it combines with the egg from a female.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Does anyone deny that this http://americanpregnancy.org/content/up ... 183657.jpg
has a right to remain alive? This one is early in development by the way.

If the mother doesn't want to deal with a pregnancy then yeah, tough luck. Just like if you had to be hooked up to my body to live, I could say tough luck bud and disconnect you because it's my body and my choice. Also, fallacies are bad m'kay.

[Ifreann]

Please expand upon this denial of women's rights.

The woman doesn't have no rights. She doesn't have shit when the baby's involved, when her body is involved it's OK. But when there's another life inside her body, developed or undeveloped? She better move aside.

This argument justifies rape. Please think about that.

[Atlanticatia]

Banning abortion is just nonsensical.

a) A fetus is not life. It's reliant on the nutrients and life of the mother. It is not viable until a certain point later in the pregnancy.
b) It is ultimately up to the mother whether or not she becomes pregnant, remains pregnant, or gives birth
c) It is better to have abortions be safe, legal, and rare (by making birth control accessible), rather than to have abortions be common, extremely unsafe, and criminalized
d) If you are anti-choice - don't get an abortion. Focus on making sure women can access birth control, kids receive comprehensive sexual health and safety training in school, and that there is a strong support structure for at-risk families if they do decide to proceed with the pregnancy

I will always hold the viewpoint that it is a woman's right to choose, and that the state has no place in controlling her sexual health.

[Northern-Armeania]

Does anyone deny that this http://americanpregnancy.org/content/up ... 183657.jpg
has a right to remain alive? This one is early in development by the way.

Seriously stop with the appeal to emotion.

Why? That seems to be a valid point to me

[Neutraligon]

Seriously stop with the appeal to emotion.

Why? That seems to be a valid point to me

It isn't. All it is is an attempt to bypass logic.

[Northern-Armeania]

Does anyone deny that this http://americanpregnancy.org/content/up ... 183657.jpg
has a right to remain alive? This one is early in development by the way.

If the mother doesn't want to deal with a pregnancy then yeah, tough luck. Just like if you had to be hooked up to my body to live, I could say tough luck bud and disconnect you because it's my body and my choice. Also, fallacies are bad m'kay.

So did your mother have a right to abort you?

[Neutraligon]

If the mother doesn't want to deal with a pregnancy then yeah, tough luck. Just like if you had to be hooked up to my body to live, I could say tough luck bud and disconnect you because it's my body and my choice. Also, fallacies are bad m'kay.

So did your mother have a right to abort you?

Yep.

[Washington Resistance Army]

If the mother doesn't want to deal with a pregnancy then yeah, tough luck. Just like if you had to be hooked up to my body to live, I could say tough luck bud and disconnect you because it's my body and my choice. Also, fallacies are bad m'kay.

So did your mother have a right to abort you?

Yep.

[Kainesia]

If the mother doesn't want to deal with a pregnancy then yeah, tough luck. Just like if you had to be hooked up to my body to live, I could say tough luck bud and disconnect you because it's my body and my choice. Also, fallacies are bad m'kay.

So did your mother have a right to abort you?

Yeah, and i wouldn't care because i wouldn't be here. I probably would have crawled out and be all like good decision.

[Northern-Armeania]

Banning abortion is just nonsensical.

a) A fetus is not life. It's reliant on the nutrients and life of the mother. It is not viable until a certain point later in the pregnancy.
b) It is ultimately up to the mother whether or not she becomes pregnant, remains pregnant, or gives birth
c) It is better to have abortions be safe, legal, and rare (by making birth control accessible), rather than to have abortions be common, extremely unsafe, and criminalized
d) If you are anti-choice - don't get an abortion. Focus on making sure women can access birth control, kids receive comprehensive sexual health and safety training in school, and that there is a strong support structure for at-risk families if they do decide to proceed with the pregnancy

I will always hold the viewpoint that it is a woman's right to choose, and that the state has no place in controlling her sexual health.

I agree abortion will only end when we change peoples hearts. That is more important to me than changing the law.