Abortion: human right?

[Kelinfort]

1. Hitler didn't say it was illegal to kill Jews. He had five to six million killed. Wasn't that murder? Let's follow the dictionary definition of murder instead of the legal definition. The state could legalize murder of certain people like 'the Purge', and it would still be murder. It would just be legalized murder. And that's what abortion is.
2. Well, obviously...
3. Not necessarily, I'm thinking that there are plenty of psychopaths out there who murder and don't care afterwards. In regard to abortion, there are those who are taught to think that 'fetuses' are nothing more than just lumps of flesh and not developing human beings.

Besides, the Bible says that God knows us even in our mother's wombs, and before that! Therefore, abortion is murder.

1 and 2 you are correct
3 you are wrong. A fetus is by definition a lump of flesh that is not a developed human being

Also, your pic is totally wrecking my poedar and trollometer.

Technically, Hitler broke international law.

[Socialist Abania]

That isn't very surprising that you've been able to bring the same damn point for 17 times

Care to actually argue anything instead of taking shots at me?

Care to stop fishing for comments and asking for flames with this?

I'm not well versed in legal matters.

[Dyakovo]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why there have never been medical practitioners in the history of mankind.

Because if you get sick or injured, you consented to it, so shut the fuck up and deal with it.

Great hyperbole, I think it could've used some fireworks, maybe a couple stage lights.

I never said you aren't allowed to correct medical problems

Yes, you did.

[Galloism]

1. Hitler didn't say it was illegal to kill Jews. He had five to six million killed. Wasn't that murder? Let's follow the dictionary definition of murder instead of the legal definition. The state could legalize murder of certain people like 'the Purge', and it would still be murder. It would just be legalized murder. And that's what abortion is.
2. Well, obviously...
3. Not necessarily, I'm thinking that there are plenty of psychopaths out there who murder and don't care afterwards. In regard to abortion, there are those who are taught to think that 'fetuses' are nothing more than just lumps of flesh and not developing human beings.

Besides, the Bible says that God knows us even in our mother's wombs, and before that! Therefore, abortion is murder.

Murder is a legal term. If it is legal killing, then it is not murder. Hence, why capital punishment is not considered murder.

Neither is self-defense.

Funny part about that: in most jurisdictions, one must be in reasonable fear of immediate bodily harm in order to initiate self-defense. Pregnancy can suddenly cause severe bodily harm without warning. Even IF the fetus were a person, there's a reasonable fear that that person is going to inflict severe bodily harm on you. In such a circumstance, removing it in self-defense would be perfectly justified.

[Othelos]

Murder is a legal term. If it is legal killing, then it is not murder. Hence, why capital punishment is not considered murder.

Neither is self-defense.

Funny part about that: in most jurisdictions, one must be in reasonable fear of immediate bodily harm in order to initiate self-defense. Pregnancy can suddenly cause severe bodily harm without warning. Even IF the fetus were a person, there's a reasonable fear that that person is going to inflict severe bodily harm on you. In such a circumstance, removing it in self-defense would be perfectly justified.

Yeah, there are many medical conditions, that if not treated, or cured through the removal of the fetus, the mother could die.

Like what Kate Middleton is going through. If she was an ordinary person and didn't need to have another baby, she could opt to have an abortion to end her hyperemesis gravidarum. If she couldn't afford hospitalization (assuming this is a person without health insurance), she would probably need to get an abortion, or she could get dehydrated enough to die.

[Dyakovo]

Abortion does not meet the criteria to be murder.
For it to be murder, it would have to fulfill all the following criteria:
1: It has to be illegal.
2: A person has to be killed.
3: It had to be done with malice aforethought.

1. Hitler didn't say it was illegal to kill Jews. He had five to six million killed. Wasn't that murder? Let's follow the dictionary definition of murder instead of the legal definition. The state could legalize murder of certain people like 'the Purge', and it would still be murder. It would just be legalized murder. And that's what abortion is.
2. Well, obviously...
3. Not necessarily, I'm thinking that there are plenty of psychopaths out there who murder and don't care afterwards. In regard to abortion, there are those who are taught to think that 'fetuses' are nothing more than just lumps of flesh and not developing human beings.

Besides, the Bible says that God knows us even in our mother's wombs, and before that! Therefore, abortion is murder.

1: ignoring the moronic Godwin attempt.
2: Legally, a foetus is not a person.
3: Yes, necessarily.

What the Bible says is completely irrelevant.

[Padnak]

Of course its a bloody human right

to think otherwise is just silly

[Galloism]

Neither is self-defense.

Funny part about that: in most jurisdictions, one must be in reasonable fear of immediate bodily harm in order to initiate self-defense. Pregnancy can suddenly cause severe bodily harm without warning. Even IF the fetus were a person, there's a reasonable fear that that person is going to inflict severe bodily harm on you. In such a circumstance, removing it in self-defense would be perfectly justified.

Yeah, there are many medical conditions, that if not treated, or cured through the removal of the fetus, the mother could die.

Like what Kate Middleton is going through. If she was an ordinary person and didn't need to have another baby, she could opt to have an abortion to end her hyperemesis gravidarum.

I had a friend who's wife suddenly bled out right after giving birth - they just just finished delivery, and she started bleeding out of every single orifice - mouth, nose, ears, eyes and... everywhere else.

She died from bleeding out in under a minute.

Up until that point, nobody knew anything was wrong.

[Othelos]

Yeah, there are many medical conditions, that if not treated, or cured through the removal of the fetus, the mother could die.

Like what Kate Middleton is going through. If she was an ordinary person and didn't need to have another baby, she could opt to have an abortion to end her hyperemesis gravidarum.

I had a friend who's wife suddenly bled out right after giving birth - they just just finished delivery, and she started bleeding out of every single orifice - mouth, nose, ears, eyes and... everywhere else.

She died from bleeding out in under a minute.

Up until that point, nobody knew anything was wrong.

Did they figure out what caused it? That's terrible :/

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yeah, there are many medical conditions, that if not treated, or cured through the removal of the fetus, the mother could die.

Like what Kate Middleton is going through. If she was an ordinary person and didn't need to have another baby, she could opt to have an abortion to end her hyperemesis gravidarum.

I had a friend who's wife suddenly bled out right after giving birth - they just just finished delivery, and she started bleeding out of every single orifice - mouth, nose, ears, eyes and... everywhere else.

She died from bleeding out in under a minute.

Up until that point, nobody knew anything was wrong.

Sounds like a congenital weakness. Maybe in the walls of her arteries.

[Galloism]

I had a friend who's wife suddenly bled out right after giving birth - they just just finished delivery, and she started bleeding out of every single orifice - mouth, nose, ears, eyes and... everywhere else.

She died from bleeding out in under a minute.

Up until that point, nobody knew anything was wrong.

Did they figure out what caused it? That's terrible :/

A genetic cardiovascular disorder that went undetected, IIRC.

[Othelos]

Did they figure out what caused it? That's terrible :/

A genetic cardiovascular disorder that went undetected, IIRC.

That sucks.

[Neema]

Yeah, there are many medical conditions, that if not treated, or cured through the removal of the fetus, the mother could die.

Like what Kate Middleton is going through. If she was an ordinary person and didn't need to have another baby, she could opt to have an abortion to end her hyperemesis gravidarum.

I had a friend who's wife suddenly bled out right after giving birth - they just just finished delivery, and she started bleeding out of every single orifice - mouth, nose, ears, eyes and... everywhere else.

She died from bleeding out in under a minute.

Up until that point, nobody knew anything was wrong.

Do you remember the technical term for it?

[Galloism]

I had a friend who's wife suddenly bled out right after giving birth - they just just finished delivery, and she started bleeding out of every single orifice - mouth, nose, ears, eyes and... everywhere else.

She died from bleeding out in under a minute.

Up until that point, nobody knew anything was wrong.

Do you remember the technical term for it?

I do not.

[Pragia]

Well, for starters, a brain dead person is dead legally, and a fetus doesn't have personhood, so the plug pulling is completely legal.

And that's because...say it with me...consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

Is their individual will gone after death if they did not communicate anything on the subject?

A brain dead person cannot have a will. That's the point. You're arguing that she DID communicate something on the subject and gave consent to the pregnancy. We've just established that to be nonsense given that the husband can pull the plug.

If they don't have a will, then their consent means nothing, no? How would I better phrase this? Accepting the logical consequences of your actions?

Care to actually argue anything instead of taking shots at me?

Care to stop fishing for comments and asking for flames with this?

I'm not well versed in legal matters.

That isn't fishing for flame, that's me communicating that my arguments may not make sense and I may need some explanation as to why I'm wrong. It's not flamebaiting, its me admitting I have no fucking idea (surprising I know).

[Neema]

Do you remember the technical term for it?

I do not.

Okay, I'll just check rare genetic disorders on Wikipedia.

[Othelos]

And that's because...say it with me...consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

A brain dead person cannot have a will. That's the point. You're arguing that she DID communicate something on the subject and gave consent to the pregnancy. We've just established that to be nonsense given that the husband can pull the plug.

If they don't have a will, then their consent means nothing, no?

Wrong, because at the time she got pregnant, she would have to have been fully functioning, and at that point gave consent by default.

Any time a decision is made by a fully functioning, informed individual, the law requires that decision to be upheld, even after the person becomes incapacitated or dies.

[Galloism]

And that's because...say it with me...consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

A brain dead person cannot have a will. That's the point. You're arguing that she DID communicate something on the subject and gave consent to the pregnancy. We've just established that to be nonsense given that the husband can pull the plug.

If they don't have a will, then their consent means nothing, no? How would I better phrase this? Accepting the logical consequences of your actions?

What if the logical consequences are a persistent vegetative state?

... like driving a car and getting in a car accident, for instance.

[Mavorpen]

And that's because...say it with me...consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

A brain dead person cannot have a will. That's the point. You're arguing that she DID communicate something on the subject and gave consent to the pregnancy. We've just established that to be nonsense given that the husband can pull the plug.

If they don't have a will, then their consent means nothing, no?

That's fucking bullshit. If you leave a will for your family and you die, it isn't just torn apart and ignored simply because you don't have a will as a consequence of being dead. Now you're getting painfully desperate.

[Socialist Abania]

And that's because...say it with me...consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

A brain dead person cannot have a will. That's the point. You're arguing that she DID communicate something on the subject and gave consent to the pregnancy. We've just established that to be nonsense given that the husband can pull the plug.

If they don't have a will, then their consent means nothing, no? How would I better phrase this? Accepting the logical consequences of your actions?

Care to stop fishing for comments and asking for flames with this?

That isn't fishing for flame, that's me communicating that my arguments may not make sense and I may need some explanation as to why I'm wrong. It's not flamebaiting, its me admitting I have no fucking idea (surprising I know).

I never said it was flamebaiting.

If your admitting you don't know the answer, or your rather less educated on the subject, you can stop bringing the same damn subject of consent over if we've already been through the conversation of it.

[Pragia]

If they don't have a will, then their consent means nothing, no?

That's fucking bullshit. If you leave a will for your family and you die, it isn't just torn apart and ignored simply because you don't have a will as a consequence of being dead. Now you're getting painfully desperate.

I'm not desperate, I'm genuinely curious as to how brain dead rulings work, since I don't know because they're so fucking rare. How do you not consent to the possibility of repercussions for actions?

[Geilinor]

A genetic cardiovascular disorder that went undetected, IIRC.

That sucks.

That's the light way to put it, yes.

[Galloism]

That's fucking bullshit. If you leave a will for your family and you die, it isn't just torn apart and ignored simply because you don't have a will as a consequence of being dead. Now you're getting painfully desperate.

I'm not desperate, I'm genuinely curious as to how brain dead rulings work, since I don't know because they're so fucking rare. How do you not consent to the possibility of repercussions for actions?

The same way no one has ever consented to being horribly disfigured forever with any mode of transportation ever built.

They go to great lengths to reverse or mitigate those unfortunate consequences.

[Mavorpen]

That's fucking bullshit. If you leave a will for your family and you die, it isn't just torn apart and ignored simply because you don't have a will as a consequence of being dead. Now you're getting painfully desperate.

I'm not desperate, I'm genuinely curious as to how brain dead rulings work, since I don't know because they're so fucking rare. How do you not consent to the possibility of repercussions for actions?

When did I say that consenting to any action does not mean accepting the potential for risk? That's not what I'm arguing against. Stop backpedaling.

[Pragia]

I'm not desperate, I'm genuinely curious as to how brain dead rulings work, since I don't know because they're so fucking rare. How do you not consent to the possibility of repercussions for actions?

When did I say that consenting to any action does not mean accepting the potential for risk? That's not what I'm arguing against. Stop backpedaling.

That's what I was arguing for this whole time. That consenting to an action (sex) means accepting potential for risk (Pregnancy). I assumed since you had argued against that (calling it bullshit repeatedly) meant that people don't consent to the repercussions of their action.