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beyond Objective and Subjective: God.

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Unitaristic Regions
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beyond Objective and Subjective: God.

Postby Unitaristic Regions » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:48 am

While not myself a Christian or even a believer, I do have a lot of respect for the philosophers of the Middle Ages, whose only flaw was their universal special pleading for God. While their ideas are hopelessly outdated, I found them to be very interesting and I was wondering what you lot thought of them. Please don't direct your rants at me, I'd appreciate that ;).

Anthony Kenny, in his "New History of Western Philosophy" talked about how the Dark Ages actually saw a continuation, and not a stop in philosophy. The view that this is the case originated in the Renaissance, but is erroneous. Logic actually was actually improved in the Dark Ages, and then degraded in the Renaissance because of the rejection of Aristotle and Medieval Philosophy.

A few examples:

1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived..
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.

This argument (copied from Wikipedia) gave even Bertrand Russell headaches. I don't buy it myself, since it's my position that a priori reasoning is can always be deconstructed into meaningless wordplay and God has been poorly defined in the argument.

What I'm more interested in is the God-Idea (which I'm dubbing it for now). The Medieval scholars were far beyond "old man with beard", thinking of the God-Idea with a sophistication that was surprising to me. The gist of their thought was that the God-Idea was something that no bodily attributes could be given to, a being that merely was. This "being" was the first cause that set in motion not only the universe, but reality as well.

The God-Being/God-Idea transcends matter, so it necessarily transcends objective reality, said the schoolmen. All reality, therefore, has either its cause in God or exists inside of God. But since objective morality (that existing in the world) has been shaped by the God-Idea, who some said was Goodness incarnate, and of which others said was simply nothing because he had no attributes, Goodness existed because all reality was subjugated to the mind of the God-Idea.

Cool stuff, no? :).

I was wondering what you guys have to say about this. Were you mistaken about the scholastics like Aquinas or Ockham? Suddenly interested in Medieval philosophy? Just wondering.


Sun Wukong wrote:Replace "God" with "My Girlfriend" and you begin to see what's wrong with this line of "reasoning."


This counter-argument has already been made and has been refuted.

Gaunilo’s argument, thus, proceeds by attempting to use Anselm’s strategy to deduce the existence of a perfect island, which Gaunilo rightly views as a counterexample to the argument form. The counterexample can be expressed as follows:

It is a conceptual truth that a piland is an island than which none greater can be imagined (that is, the greatest possible island that can be imagined).
A piland exists as an idea in the mind.
A piland that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is greater than a piland that exists only as an idea in the mind.
Thus, if a piland exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine an island that is greater than a piland (that is, a greatest possible island that does exist).
But we cannot imagine an island that is greater than a piland.
Therefore, a piland exists.

Notice, however, that premise 1 of Gaunilo’s argument is incoherent. The problem here is that the qualities that make an island great are not the sort of qualities that admit of conceptually maximal qualities. No matter how great any island is in some respect, it is always possible to imagine an island greater than that island in that very respect. For example, if one thinks that abundant fruit is a great-making property for an island, then, no matter how great a particular island might be, it will always be possible to imagine a greater island because there is no intrinsic maximum for fruit-abundance. For this reason, the very concept of a piland is incoherent.

But this is not true of the concept of God as Anselm conceives it. Properties like knowledge, power, and moral goodness, which comprise the concept of a maximally great being, do have intrinsic maximums. For example, perfect knowledge requires knowing all and only true propositions; it is conceptually impossible to know more than this. Likewise, perfect power means being able to do everything that it is possible to do; it is conceptually impossible for a being to be able to do more than this.

The general point here, then, is this: Anselm’s argument works, if at all, only for concepts that are entirely defined in terms of properties that admit of some sort of intrinsic maximum. As C.D. Broad puts this important point:

[The notion of a greatest possible being imaginable assumes that] each positive property is to be present in the highest possible degree. Now this will be meaningless verbiage unless there is some intrinsic maximum or upper limit to the possible intensity of every positive property which is capable of degrees. With some magnitudes this condition is fulfilled. It is, e.g., logically impossible that any proper fraction should exceed the ratio 1/1; and again, on a certain definition of “angle,” it is logically impossible for any angle to exceed four right angles. But it seems quite clear that there are other properties, such as length or temperature or pain, to which there is no intrinsic maximum or upper limit of degree.

If any of the properties that are conceptually essential to the notion of God do not admit of an intrinsic maximum, then Anselm’s argument strategy will not work because, like Guanilo’s concept of a piland, the relevant concept of God is incoherent. But insofar as the relevant great-making properties are limited to omnipotence, omniscience, and moral perfection (which do admit of intrinsic maximums), Anselm’s notion of a greatest possible being seems to avoid the worry expressed by Broad and Guanilo.
Last edited by Unitaristic Regions on Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:17 am

With enough faulty logic you can prove that I'm the President of the Antarctic. Doesn't make it true.

It's all very interesting, though, I'll give you that. Gives you an insight in people's pattern of thinking.
Last edited by Esternial on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Zottistan » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:23 am

1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived..
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.


This argument essentially breaks down to "God exists because if he didn't exist he wouldn't be God", correct? A proof by definition, since the definition basically includes "God exists", the above argument explaining why the definition includes it?
Last edited by Zottistan on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:32 am

Esternial wrote:With enough faulty logic you can prove that I'm the President of the Antarctic. Doesn't make it true.
It's all very interesting, though, I'll give you that. Gives you an insight in people's pattern of thinking.


From a psychopathological point of view, it's extremely interesting... because it takes some mental disorder to formulate such arguments in bona fide and think they're logically sound.
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Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:35 am

Risottia wrote:
Esternial wrote:With enough faulty logic you can prove that I'm the President of the Antarctic. Doesn't make it true.
It's all very interesting, though, I'll give you that. Gives you an insight in people's pattern of thinking.


From a psychopathological point of view, it's extremely interesting... because it takes some mental disorder to formulate such arguments in bona fide and think they're logically sound.

Maybe whomever wrote them lost how own train of thought and just finished it up with writing "Therefore, God is real".

Because deadlines are the bane of logic.

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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:39 am

You know you're all judging people who lived eight hundred years ago? By this logic, might as well call the Greek philosopher (whose name I can't remember) stupid because he thought all things were water because semen is moist.

Seriously, have maybe a little respect. These people worked on these theses for years.
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:40 am

Esternial wrote:
Risottia wrote:
From a psychopathological point of view, it's extremely interesting... because it takes some mental disorder to formulate such arguments in bona fide and think they're logically sound.

Maybe whomever wrote them lost how own train of thought and just finished it up with writing "Therefore, God is real".

Because deadlines are the bane of logic.

I blame it on early capitalism and the exploitation of the Theology and Philosophy professors at Bologna's Alma Mater and at the Sorbonne by the greedy Lombard, Genoan and Florentine bankers.
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:41 am

Unitaristic Regions wrote:You know you're all judging people who lived eight hundred years ago?

I don't see a problem with it. They were younger than me anyway.
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:41 am

Esternial wrote:With enough faulty logic you can prove that I'm the President of the Antarctic. Doesn't make it true.

It's all very interesting, though, I'll give you that. Gives you an insight in people's pattern of thinking.


What you can prove isn't true? :p

And that's the point of it ;).
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:46 am

Zottistan wrote:1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived..
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.


This argument essentially breaks down to "God exists because if he didn't exist he wouldn't be God", correct? A proof by definition, since the definition basically includes "God exists", the above argument explaining why the definition includes it?


Well, not entirely. The idea is to create a paradox. In Anselm's own words: Even the fool, then, is bound to agree that there exists, if only in the understanding something than which nothing greater can be conceived; because he hears this and understands it, and whatever is understood is in the understanding. But for sure, that than which nothing greater can be conceived cannot exist in the understanding alone. For suppose it exists in the understanding alone: then it can be thought to exist in reality, which is greater. Therefore, if that than which nothing greater can be conceived exists in a thing than which something greater can be conceived. But this is impossible. Therefore it is beyond doubt that there exists a being that which nothing greater exists.
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:46 am

Risottia wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:You know you're all judging people who lived eight hundred years ago?

I don't see a problem with it. They were younger than me anyway.


Goddamn Statanist.
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:52 am

Unitaristic Regions wrote:Goddamn Statanist.

Goddamning is an important part of our mission, and the customer's satisfaction has always been of highmost concern to us.

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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:53 am

Risottia wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:Goddamn Statanist.

Goddamning is an important part of our mission, and the customer's satisfaction has always been of highmost concern to us.

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:D
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Postby Esternial » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:28 am

Unitaristic Regions wrote:
Esternial wrote:With enough faulty logic you can prove that I'm the President of the Antarctic. Doesn't make it true.

It's all very interesting, though, I'll give you that. Gives you an insight in people's pattern of thinking.


What you can prove isn't true? :p

And that's the point of it ;).

It's philosophy. Philosophy isn't a means to prove anything, it's a means to expand your thinking.

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Postby Maineiacs » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:36 am

4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.

This in particular makes no sense.
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:03 am

Maineiacs wrote:4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.

This in particular makes no sense.


Try to read my post some posts up and see if Anselm's own words make it more clear. Wikipedia didn't really represent the argument that well.
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Postby Unitaristic Regions » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:05 am

Esternial wrote:
Unitaristic Regions wrote:
What you can prove isn't true? :p

And that's the point of it ;).

It's philosophy. Philosophy isn't a means to prove anything, it's a means to expand your thinking.


I respectfully disagree. Philosophy isn't a means to prove anything, but a means to postulate propositions that can't be proven. Aristotle is notorious for writing odd things that could only later be proven.

But yeah, when you can prove it, we start to call it science ;)
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:19 am

Descartes tried it in his Meditations (particularly his third meditation is where he lays the claim); it's pretty much an ontological argument.

Basically, because God necessarily has to exist because the mind conceives it even when everything else is doubted then that means God exists. It's a pretty doubtful argument which was refuted by Kant several years later by basically saying that "Existence is not a predicate" which means that just because you say something exists doesn't necessarily has to.

I can have a triangle with three sides, but if there isn't a triangle then I do not have three sides or three angles. If I can accept the fact that there is a God then it logically necessitates to exist, that doesn't mean that I have to accept that there is a God.

However, the ontological argument you are saying it's from the Medieval period is actually St. Anselm of Canterbury's Ontological Proof of God. The best argument I have for it is that something doesn't have to exist in order for something else to exist. The argument of Anselm implies that if something can be conceived not to exist then something greater must exist and that's not necessarily the case.

If I can conceive of a bicycle that doesn't mean I conceive that an unicycle doesn't exist. If I cannot conceive God exists then that doesn't necessarily mean something greater than God exists, it just means that God is a being I cannot conceive it exists.
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Postby Sun Wukong » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:22 am

Replace "God" with "My Girlfriend" and you begin to see what's wrong with this line of "reasoning."
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:31 am

Sun Wukong wrote:Replace "God" with "My Girlfriend" and you begin to see what's wrong with this line of "reasoning."


:rofl:

1. Our understanding of my girlfriend is a being than which no greater can be conceived..
2. The idea of my girlfriend exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If my girlfriend only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than my girlfriend.
6. Therefore, my girlfriend exists.

That sounds hilarious and insulting in so many ways :p
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Satosia » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:34 am

Unitaristic Regions wrote:
1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived..
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.



Firstly, the argument assumes that if we collect all beings into a set and order them by how powerful they are (I'll call this a poset with the power ordering), then there exists a maximal element (which we define as God). This is not obvious or necessarily true - consider the poset of the positive whole numbers ordered by division or by size - neither of these posets have any maximal elements. Also, note my use of maximal rather than maximum there. Unless you can show the power of any two beings can be directly compared, this argument does not even preclude the possibility of multiple gods.

Secondly, there is a large flaw going from 2. to 3.. The idea that something exists does not imply that that something exists in a mind. The idea of a special colour that represents magic and is not formed from a combination of existing colours exists in my mind, but this colour does not exist in my mind, as it is impossible for me to think of it. We can think about impossible things, but that does not mean that they exist in our minds.

Edit: corrected a singular/plural typo
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Postby Condunum » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:35 am

Generally when you can reduce something down to 6 easy to remember postulates, it's not worth reading. that's at least true here.
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Postby Norstal » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:38 am

Unitaristic Regions wrote:You know you're all judging people who lived eight hundred years ago? By this logic, might as well call the Greek philosopher (whose name I can't remember) stupid because he thought all things were water because semen is moist.

Seriously, have maybe a little respect. These people worked on these theses for years.

Sure, but they're just doing mental gymnastics. Obviously the more you practice it, then better you are. But it's nothing more than mental gymnastics. Good philosophy is where you're trying to find the answer based on evidence, not find evidence based around an answer. And that's the thing. Even Greek philosophers already knew these kind of arguments. It's one great giant circlejerk.

I'll give you this though. The arguments that they made helped later philosophers identify logical fallacies. Modern philosophy wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for the effort to prove that the arguments these people make are stupid.
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:39 am

As for your questions:

1. No I wasn't wrong about Ockham, St. Augustine, Anselm, and Aquinas; had to read them as part of my History of Ideas classes for my History major.

2. Nah, it doesn't interest me as much because their arguments are the original ones from which all other ontological and cosmological proofs have been derived.
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Postby Ashmoria » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:42 am

Unitaristic Regions wrote:1. Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived..
2. The idea of God exists in the mind.
3. A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4. If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5. We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6. Therefore, God exists.

.

why would that give anyone fits? it implies that if we think it it must be somehow true. the idea of god isn't the actuality of god.
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