Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Napkiraly]

How is getting hit by a SAM Malaysia Airlines fault? Should people say "Don't fly AA or United because they had planes that were once turned into flying missiles"?

Or have their engines dislodge from the aircraft during takeoff.

Never fly Japan Airlines. Your plane might explosively decompress and then slam into a mountain because it happened once.

[Shofercia]

Evidence suggests that the systems were captured.

Which is sensible. Russia learned from the US intervention in Afghanistan what happens when you provide the plucky rebels with fancy AAA.

There's also the problem with logistics. Russian BUKs are integrated into Russia's AA Defense System. It's not just a matter of "losing" a few documents and filing off serial numbers.

[Costa Fierro]

Which is sensible. Russia learned from the US intervention in Afghanistan what happens when you provide the plucky rebels with fancy AAA.

I have a question, seeing as you know more about military stuff that I do. Does the Buk's onboard radar systems have the ability to determine whether or not the aircraft being tracked is civilian or military?

[Costa Fierro]

Or have their engines dislodge from the aircraft during takeoff.

Never fly Japan Airlines. Your plane might explosively decompress and then slam into a mountain because it happened once.

Never fly Korean Airlines. They get shot down or blown out of the sky by North Korean terrorists. That happened three times (I think) and once respectively.

[Napkiraly]

Never fly Japan Airlines. Your plane might explosively decompress and then slam into a mountain because it happened once.

Never fly Korean Airlines. They get shot down or blown out of the sky by North Korean terrorists. That happened three times (I think) and once respectively.

Never fly on a plane with Samuel L. Jackson. Snakes will be on it.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Which is sensible. Russia learned from the US intervention in Afghanistan what happens when you provide the plucky rebels with fancy AAA.

I have a question, seeing as you know more about military stuff that I do. Does the Buk's onboard radar systems have the ability to determine whether or not the aircraft being tracked is civilian or military?

There's no magic game setting for that, no.

However, a decent, modern radar system can tell a lot about what it's painting by the return signal generates. In my limited understanding, the propeller disks on a turboprop (ie, AN-26) produce a very distinctive signal compared to the terminal compressor stage of a "pure" turbine engine (ie, B-777).

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Which is sensible. Russia learned from the US intervention in Afghanistan what happens when you provide the plucky rebels with fancy AAA.

I have a question, seeing as you know more about military stuff that I do. Does the Buk's onboard radar systems have the ability to determine whether or not the aircraft being tracked is civilian or military?

It depends on the model. The original Buk 9K37 didn't have 'native' IFF capability. Apparently it was possible to analyze the radar signature and determine what you were looking at, but I doubt the separatists are on that level. The version developed in the 80s (The Buk-M1) had the IFF without any analysis required.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to tell the difference between the two, and the picture in question is only of the launch system, not the command vehicle, which is where the difference would most likely be.

[Shofercia]

Never fly Korean Airlines. They get shot down or blown out of the sky by North Korean terrorists. That happened three times (I think) and once respectively.

Never fly on a plane with Samuel L. Jackson. Snakes will be on it.

Never read Napki's posts before flying

[Lalaki]

Would we all agree that it is all speculation at present?

[Oceasia]

Well, there goes their company.

[Costa Fierro]

It depends on the model. The original Buk 9K37 didn't have 'native' IFF capability. Apparently it was possible to analyze the radar signature and determine what you were looking at, but I doubt the separatists are on that level. The version developed in the 80s (The Buk-M1) had the IFF without any analysis required.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to tell the difference between the two, and the picture in question is only of the launch system, not the command vehicle, which is where the difference would most likely be.

So, the rebels likely didn't know what they were firing at? Surely they would have been able to tell how high the aircraft was and maybe thought "hey, if its this high, maybe it's not military"? Or does that require some formal training as opposed to just shoot the missile and worry about the consequences later?

[Oaledonia]

Which is sensible. Russia learned from the US intervention in Afghanistan what happens when you provide the plucky rebels with fancy AAA.

I have a question, seeing as you know more about military stuff that I do. Does the Buk's onboard radar systems have the ability to determine whether or not the aircraft being tracked is civilian or military?

http://defensetechs.com/wp-content/uploads/catalogos/EN/Armament%20and%20Defense/air_def%201%20defensetechs.pdf

No.

[Northwest Slobovia]

They've been saying that since this morning.

There's probably all kinds of interesting gadgets on the Turkish coast pointed at Ukraine/Russia. Not to mentions satellites.

Allegedly it was an American satellite that detected the launch.

Yup. Downward looking sats. We picked up a similar attack on a jetliner over the Black Sea in the early 00s; I think it was Russian, bound for the Middle East. Have to check when I'm more awake.

[Costa Fierro]

Never fly Korean Airlines. They get shot down or blown out of the sky by North Korean terrorists. That happened three times (I think) and once respectively.

Never fly on a plane with Samuel L. Jackson. Snakes will be on it.

Just never fly.

[Shofercia]

Would we all agree that it is all speculation at present?

Yep.

[Costa Fierro]

I have a question, seeing as you know more about military stuff that I do. Does the Buk's onboard radar systems have the ability to determine whether or not the aircraft being tracked is civilian or military?

http://defensetechs.com/wp-content/uploads/catalogos/EN/Armament%20and%20Defense/air_def%201%20defensetechs.pdf

No.

I can't read the text. It's too damn small. *squints like an old man*

[Oceasia]

Would we all agree that it is all speculation at present?

Yep.

Yeah, pretty much.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

It depends on the model. The original Buk 9K37 didn't have 'native' IFF capability. Apparently it was possible to analyze the radar signature and determine what you were looking at, but I doubt the separatists are on that level. The version developed in the 80s (The Buk-M1) had the IFF without any analysis required.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to tell the difference between the two, and the picture in question is only of the launch system, not the command vehicle, which is where the difference would most likely be.

So, the rebels likely didn't know what they were firing at? Surely they would have been able to tell how high the aircraft was and maybe thought "hey, if its this high, maybe it's not military"? Or does that require some formal training as opposed to just shoot the missile and worry about the consequences later?

It would really depend on what the Russians left when the Soviet Union fell. Unfortunately, I can't find any real data on which models Ukraine has in service.

Given their experience level, they probably just saw a blip and figured it was military. It's possible that the system hadn't been maintained properly and misidentified the plane, as well. There's really just too many variables in play to say with any certainty what the exact cause was.

[Roski]

Which is sensible. Russia learned from the US intervention in Afghanistan what happens when you provide the plucky rebels with fancy AAA.

I have a question, seeing as you know more about military stuff that I do. Does the Buk's onboard radar systems have the ability to determine whether or not the aircraft being tracked is civilian or military?

It has the ability to detect the size, but not civilian or military.

And with the Antonov in Ukraine's arsenal, you can't just say "Its big = Civilian"

[Oaledonia]

http://defensetechs.com/wp-content/uploads/catalogos/EN/Armament%20and%20Defense/air_def%201%20defensetechs.pdf

No.

I can't read the text. It's too damn small. *squints like an old man*

The BUKs IFF relies on multiple links all looking at the same craft, plus a network of radar posts cleaning the signals. There's no way the rebels (if they did it) would have known what they where shooting at. They would be lucky if they even got the altitude accurate.

[Napkiraly]

Never fly on a plane with Samuel L. Jackson. Snakes will be on it.

Just never fly.

Unless you're R. Kelly.

Never fly on a plane with Samuel L. Jackson. Snakes will be on it.

Never read Napki's posts before flying

Que?

[Northwest Slobovia]

So, the rebels likely didn't know what they were firing at? Surely they would have been able to tell how high the aircraft was and maybe thought "hey, if its this high, maybe it's not military"? Or does that require some formal training as opposed to just shoot the missile and worry about the consequences later?

It would really depend on what the Russians left when the Soviet Union fell. Unfortunately, I can't find any real data on which models Ukraine has in service.

Given their experience level, they probably just saw a blip and figured it was military. It's possible that the system hadn't been maintained properly and misidentified the plane, as well.

Hell, we screwed that up once: the Vincennes shot down an Iranian Airbus back in the late 80s.

[Costa Fierro]

I have a question, seeing as you know more about military stuff that I do. Does the Buk's onboard radar systems have the ability to determine whether or not the aircraft being tracked is civilian or military?

It has the ability to detect the size, but not civilian or military.

And with the Antonov in Ukraine's arsenal, you can't just say "Its big = Civilian"

When you look at the aircraft being shot down regularly over eastern Ukraine, the only large aircraft that was shot down was that Il-76 a couple of months back. The Il-76 is by no means a small aircraft, but it's not as large as an airliner like the 777(-200ER).

The BUKs IFF relies on multiple links all looking at the same craft, plus a network of radar posts cleaning the signals. There's no way the rebels (if they did it) would have known what they where shooting at. They would be lucky if they even got the altitude accurate.

So what they would have needed would be either additional radars or a command vehicle? Or both?

[Costa Fierro]

It would really depend on what the Russians left when the Soviet Union fell. Unfortunately, I can't find any real data on which models Ukraine has in service.

Given their experience level, they probably just saw a blip and figured it was military. It's possible that the system hadn't been maintained properly and misidentified the plane, as well.

Hell, we screwed that up once: the Vincennes shot down an Iranian Airbus back in the late 80s.

I thought the crew of the Vincennes tried contacting the aircraft before they shot it down?

[Oaledonia]

It would really depend on what the Russians left when the Soviet Union fell. Unfortunately, I can't find any real data on which models Ukraine has in service.

Given their experience level, they probably just saw a blip and figured it was military. It's possible that the system hadn't been maintained properly and misidentified the plane, as well.

Hell, we screwed that up once: the Vincennes shot down an Iranian Airbus back in the late 80s.

That was because the captain half assed the best aerial identification system in the world.