Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Costa Fierro]

According to Ukraine's government, which has been blaming Russia for all sins under the Sun, repeatedly.

And Putin blamed the Ukraine, as it does for most of what happens in the Ukraine that is debatable (along with blaming the US).

And yeah, if there are people calling posters "Kremlin trolls", it's 100% legit to call a Russophobe, a Russophobe.

Everyone that disagrees with Shofercia is clearly someone that is afraid of Russia and Russians.

Tell me Costa Fierro, if someone said "oh hey, let's nuke New Zealand's most sparsely populated space" and actually meant it, is that someone who loves New Zealand very much?

The fuck are you on about?

Hmm... Ukraine military deploys air defence battalion to Donetsk on Wednesday.

Is this before or after the rebels celebrate the capture of Buk missile systems?

Ukraine is currently suffering its worst defeat of the entire war.

Because capturing Slovyansk is clearly a sign of defeat that needs to be avenged by shooting down a civil airliner. I know you've suggested some stupid things Shof, but seriously. This has to be the dumbest one of the lot.

Ukrainian troops and citizens have been subjected by their government and media to a relentless campaign of deranged fear-mongering. Ukrainian troops are constantly told that Ukrainian forces have been attacked by Russian troops and Russian planes.

Really? When? Is this more bullshit from the world's best manure salesman?

For some unfathomable reason, a Malaysian airliner deviates from the Mariupol route used by airliners over the previous days and instead follows a flight path that takes it straight over Donetsk. Against this backdrop, freshly-arrived Ukrainian air defense troops detect an unidentified aircraft moving toward their position from the west. Should anybody surprised by what happens next?

Hurr Ukraine did it. Big fucking surprise from you. Russians are never capable of doing anything wrong, even the idiots in charge of the captured Buk systems.

See, I can do that too. Now, why don't we get some facts before speculating, eh? Does that sound good?

Because Ukrainians are going to shoot an aircraft coming from behind them. At speed and at altitude. Do you think we are all dumb fucks Shof? Do you think we are all retards that obviously need a dose of wisdom?

[Shofercia]

The Russians are now trying to put some blame on Poland.

Edit: And the rebels have the FDR and the black box. Fucking brilliant.

They're saying the plane diverted while traveling through Poland. They're not wrong:

They're not saying that Poland shot it down. They're saying that the plane's course was altered, while it was traveling through Poland, so that it would travel through the DonBass Republic.

Russia really wouldn't have the motives to do it. Russians would also largely have the discipline to discern between military and civilian aircraft. As Russian separatists claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian military aircraft in the exact same area on the same day (and circumstantial evidence at this stage that alleges that the separatists didn't realize until they examined the wreckage that it wasn't military), I'd say with some confidence that the Russian separatists are responsible.

I think the separatists got the equipment from the Russians, but weren't given the training to discern the military and civilian aircraft.

They captured it from Kiev's forces: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday. So far, no details are available about the number and condition of the missile systems taken over by the self-defence forces. The press service refused to comment. The Buk missile defence system is a mobile medium-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system designed to defend field troops and logistics installations against air threats in conditions of heavy electronic countermeasures and intense enemy fire.

[Costa Fierro]

The Russians are now trying to put some blame on Poland.

Edit: And the rebels have the FDR and the black box. Fucking brilliant.

They're saying the plane diverted while traveling through Poland. They're not wrong:

They're not saying that Poland shot it down. They're saying that the plane's course was altered, while it was traveling through Poland, so that it would travel through the DonBass Republic.

When it wasn't. I'm not sure if most people realize this, but the air space over eastern Ukraine and Western Russia is where a lot of passenger aircraft fly over on transcontinental flights between southeast Asia and Europe. They use this area because it provides the cheapest and most direct route to destinations in southeast Asia for airlines flying there. It's not that the Polish government did it on purpose, it's that is where civilian air corridors are. I flew a similar route back in 2009 on an SQ 747 from Singapore to Frankfurt. We flew up Malacca, over India, Pakistan, northwestern Himalayas, central Asia, eastern Europe (including Poland over which was a large thunderstorm) and into Germany.

[Costa Fierro]

US officials are saying that the aircraft was shot down with a SAM.

Now, despite the fact that it is CNN, it does raise an interesting point, chiefly is what kind of system does the US have that is able to detect such missile launches in Eastern Ukraine?

[Organized States]

The Russians are now trying to put some blame on Poland.

Edit: And the rebels have the FDR and the black box. Fucking brilliant.

They're saying the plane diverted while traveling through Poland. They're not wrong:

They're not saying that Poland shot it down. They're saying that the plane's course was altered, while it was traveling through Poland, so that it would travel through the DonBass Republic.

I think the separatists got the equipment from the Russians, but weren't given the training to discern the military and civilian aircraft.

They captured it from Kiev's forces: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday. So far, no details are available about the number and condition of the missile systems taken over by the self-defence forces. The press service refused to comment. The Buk missile defence system is a mobile medium-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system designed to defend field troops and logistics installations against air threats in conditions of heavy electronic countermeasures and intense enemy fire.

And your point is? No one is doubting that the rebels most likely obtained it from the Ukranian Air Force Air Defense. So what if Poland diverted the flight, they probably changed the flight path due to air traffic, not so that they could kill 200+ people and go to war with Russia.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

US officials are saying that the aircraft was shot down with a SAM.

Now, despite the fact that it is CNN, it does raise an interesting point, chiefly is what kind of system does the US have that is able to detect such missile launches in Eastern Ukraine?

They've been saying that since this morning.

There's probably all kinds of interesting gadgets on the Turkish coast pointed at Ukraine/Russia. Not to mentions satellites.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Didn't a rebel commander brag on facebook about shooting down a plane they believed to be Ukranian military a short while after it went down?

[Roski]

US officials are saying that the aircraft was shot down with a SAM.

Now, despite the fact that it is CNN, it does raise an interesting point, chiefly is what kind of system does the US have that is able to detect such missile launches in Eastern Ukraine?

The United States has this on board the USS Nimitz-class Fleet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Approach_Warning

Most fighter jets today are also equiped with MAWs, to detect enemy missile launches, so they can deploy countermeasures.

[Organized States]

US officials are saying that the aircraft was shot down with a SAM.

Now, despite the fact that it is CNN, it does raise an interesting point, chiefly is what kind of system does the US have that is able to detect such missile launches in Eastern Ukraine?

I'd assume an E-3 Sentry or even a drone (RQ-170/180, RQ-4 etc) in the Black Sea picked it up. They're pretty good at detecting launches of SAMs.

[Costa Fierro]

US officials are saying that the aircraft was shot down with a SAM.

Now, despite the fact that it is CNN, it does raise an interesting point, chiefly is what kind of system does the US have that is able to detect such missile launches in Eastern Ukraine?

They've been saying that since this morning.

There's probably all kinds of interesting gadgets on the Turkish coast pointed at Ukraine/Russia. Not to mentions satellites.

Allegedly it was an American satellite that detected the launch.

[Shofercia]

According to Ukraine's government, which has been blaming Russia for all sins under the Sun, repeatedly.

And Putin blamed the Ukraine, as it does for most of what happens in the Ukraine that is debatable (along with blaming the US).

Ergo neither source is valid. Except you seem to be running with Ukraine's source rather wildly.

And yeah, if there are people calling posters "Kremlin trolls", it's 100% legit to call a Russophobe, a Russophobe.

Everyone that disagrees with Shofercia is clearly someone that is afraid of Russia and Russians.

I haven't called everyone who disagrees with me a Russophobe. Good try though, cookie?

Tell me Costa Fierro, if someone said "oh hey, let's nuke New Zealand's most sparsely populated space" and actually meant it, is that someone who loves New Zealand very much?

The fuck are you on about?

Because the only guy in this thread that I called a Russophobe in this thread was cheering for nuking a place that's near Russia and China. As to Russia's collateral damage, he simply said, "eh, it's sparsely populated", and was actually serious about it.

Hmm... Ukraine military deploys air defence battalion to Donetsk on Wednesday.

Is this before or after the rebels celebrate the capture of Buk missile systems?

The Rebels didn't capture all of them, and judging by the timeline, after.

Ukraine is currently suffering its worst defeat of the entire war.

Because capturing Slovyansk is clearly a sign of defeat that needs to be avenged by shooting down a civil airliner. I know you've suggested some stupid things Shof, but seriously. This has to be the dumbest one of the lot.

Oh no, that was a victory. I was talking about today, when Ukraine's forces are being mauled on near the Russo-Ukrainian border: http://rupaper.com/post/31321

In the Morning on July 11 under Zelenopolyem (Luhansk region) was crushed the Ukrainian military column. "The Russian spring" reported about it with reference to the commander of a militia Igor Strelkov. Earlier given information was distributed by a sotnik of the Maidan Vladimir Parasyuk. "Just reported very unpleasant news. Today at 5 o'clock in the morning at page of Zelenopolye the Russian fighters from the Hail installation fired at our children from 24 motorized crews (The Lvov Region) . Large number of wounded and killed. Communications aren't present, everything burned down. Help doesn't come" — he wrote to Facebook. Parasyuk added that, according to informal data, about 30 soldiers were lost, more than 100 were wounded. Igor Strelkov about it declared: "I confirm. The column is crushed "in stuff"".

Usually, Costa Fierro, when I say "currently", the intelligent poster is able to possess enough reading comprehension skills to know that I'm talking about today's, or at least this week's events. Oh, and that was also a parody of your idiotic post. Don't think that I won't bring this up every time, just in case you opt to quote it out of context.

Ukrainian troops and citizens have been subjected by their government and media to a relentless campaign of deranged fear-mongering. Ukrainian troops are constantly told that Ukrainian forces have been attacked by Russian troops and Russian planes.

Really? When? Is this more bullshit from the world's best manure salesman?

Are you seriously unaware of the media war? Oh, and that was also a parody of your idiotic post. Don't think that I won't bring this up every time, just in case you opt to quote it out of context.

For some unfathomable reason, a Malaysian airliner deviates from the Mariupol route used by airliners over the previous days and instead follows a flight path that takes it straight over Donetsk. Against this backdrop, freshly-arrived Ukrainian air defense troops detect an unidentified aircraft moving toward their position from the west. Should anybody surprised by what happens next?

Hurr Ukraine did it. Big fucking surprise from you. Russians are never capable of doing anything wrong, even the idiots in charge of the captured Buk systems.

That thing, that you totally took out of context, was a parody of your argument.

See, I can do that too. Now, why don't we get some facts before speculating, eh? Does that sound good?

Because Ukrainians are going to shoot an aircraft coming from behind them. At speed and at altitude. Do you think we are all dumb fucks Shof? Do you think we are all retards that obviously need a dose of wisdom?

There was an accident in 2001. Kiev cannot handle the Rebels on their own. It's not too far fetched for them to pull a false flag operation and blame it on the Rebels. If the Rebellion continues until Ukraine's economy collapses, Poroshenko will have to abandon the reconquista.

[Organized States]

They've been saying that since this morning.

There's probably all kinds of interesting gadgets on the Turkish coast pointed at Ukraine/Russia. Not to mentions satellites.

Allegedly it was an American satellite that detected the launch.

There are allegedly seats that might be able to, but the NRO and USAF keep their systems rather hush-hush.

[Israel-Judah]

The US reports that the airliner was hit by "surface-to-air" missile.

Remind me to never fly Malaysia Airlines, ever.

[Shofercia]

They're saying the plane diverted while traveling through Poland. They're not wrong:

(Image)

(Image)

They're not saying that Poland shot it down. They're saying that the plane's course was altered, while it was traveling through Poland, so that it would travel through the DonBass Republic.




They captured it from Kiev's forces: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

And your point is? No one is doubting that the rebels most likely obtained it from the Ukranian Air Force Air Defense. So what if Poland diverted the flight, they probably changed the flight path due to air traffic, not so that they could kill 200+ people and go to war with Russia.

The post that I'm responding to says: I think the separatists got the equipment from the Russians,

My post proves that the Rebels got it from Kiev's Forces, not the Russian Military.

After which you say: And your point is? No one is doubting that the rebels most likely obtained it from the Ukranian Air Force Air Defense.

You missed my point. Also, I don't know why Poland diverted the flight, I'm simply saying that they did.

[Transnapastain]

According to Ukraine's government, which has been blaming Russia for all sins under the Sun, repeatedly.

And Putin blamed the Ukraine, as it does for most of what happens in the Ukraine that is debatable (along with blaming the US).

And yeah, if there are people calling posters "Kremlin trolls", it's 100% legit to call a Russophobe, a Russophobe.

Everyone that disagrees with Shofercia is clearly someone that is afraid of Russia and Russians.

Tell me Costa Fierro, if someone said "oh hey, let's nuke New Zealand's most sparsely populated space" and actually meant it, is that someone who loves New Zealand very much?

The fuck are you on about?

Hmm... Ukraine military deploys air defence battalion to Donetsk on Wednesday.

Is this before or after the rebels celebrate the capture of Buk missile systems?

Ukraine is currently suffering its worst defeat of the entire war.

Because capturing Slovyansk is clearly a sign of defeat that needs to be avenged by shooting down a civil airliner. I know you've suggested some stupid things Shof, but seriously. This has to be the dumbest one of the lot.

Ukrainian troops and citizens have been subjected by their government and media to a relentless campaign of deranged fear-mongering. Ukrainian troops are constantly told that Ukrainian forces have been attacked by Russian troops and Russian planes.

Really? When? Is this more bullshit from the world's best manure salesman?

For some unfathomable reason, a Malaysian airliner deviates from the Mariupol route used by airliners over the previous days and instead follows a flight path that takes it straight over Donetsk. Against this backdrop, freshly-arrived Ukrainian air defense troops detect an unidentified aircraft moving toward their position from the west. Should anybody surprised by what happens next?

Hurr Ukraine did it. Big fucking surprise from you. Russians are never capable of doing anything wrong, even the idiots in charge of the captured Buk systems.

See, I can do that too. Now, why don't we get some facts before speculating, eh? Does that sound good?

Because Ukrainians are going to shoot an aircraft coming from behind them. At speed and at altitude. Do you think we are all dumb fucks Shof? Do you think we are all retards that obviously need a dose of wisdom?

Lets attack the post and not the poster, Costa, something I know I've told you before. You're ice remains thin, don't fall through and lose another nation.

[Organized States]

And your point is? No one is doubting that the rebels most likely obtained it from the Ukranian Air Force Air Defense. So what if Poland diverted the flight, they probably changed the flight path due to air traffic, not so that they could kill 200+ people and go to war with Russia.

The post that I'm responding to says: I think the separatists got the equipment from the Russians,

After which you say: And your point is? No one is doubting that the rebels most likely obtained it from the Ukranian Air Force Air Defense.

You missed my point. Also, I don't know why Poland diverted the flight, I'm simply saying that they did.

I did miss your point and I apologize.

Back on topicness:
The Russians supplied them thing is partly right, Russia has supported them by providing them with food, medical supplies, arms, ammunition, and parts for their vehicles. Though I don't think Russia authorized them to destroy a civilian airliner, and the rebels (who are known for being paranoid about spies), detected a radar contact, fired indiscriminately, without attempting to identify it. Therefore, Russia is partly responsible for providing ammunition, as well as parts (Ukraine's got some pretty ghetto Kubs) for their AD systems.

[Napkiraly]

The US reports that the airliner was hit by "surface-to-air" missile.

Remind me to never fly Malaysia Airlines, ever.

How is getting hit by a SAM Malaysia Airlines fault? Should people say "Don't fly AA or United because they had planes that were once turned into flying missiles"?

[Costa Fierro]

Ergo neither source is valid. Except you seem to be running with Ukraine's source rather wildly.

I'm not. I'm going with the conclusion that it was separatists based on the evidence we have, chiefly among which is that the Ukrainian separatists do have the capabilities to shoot the aircraft down but do not have the discipline nor the training to correctly identify exactly what they are shooting at. Russian and Ukrainian military forces have the training and the discipline to not shoot first and ask questions later.

Because the only guy in this thread that I called a Russophobe in this thread was cheering for nuking a place that's near Russia and China. As to Russia's collateral damage, he simply said, "eh, it's sparsely populated", and was actually serious about it.

Meh. If you detonated a bomb on a sparsely populated place in NZ, it'd likely be an island in the middle of nowhere.

The Rebels didn't capture all of them, and judging by the timeline, after.

They managed to capture at least one system. Now, I'm not entirely sure how good the in-house system is as to whether or not the radar can detect aircraft at altitude. I think it can without the aid of an external radar, which is what most older Soviet SAM systems used.

Oh no, that was a victory. I was talking about today, when Ukraine's forces are being mauled on near the Russo-Ukrainian border: http://rupaper.com/post/31321

So, Ukraine is loosing so it must have shot down the airliner. Seems legit.

Are you seriously unaware of the media war?

I am. Mainly waged by the Russians to try and improve and promote their image overseas. The Chinese are doing exactly the same thing.

Oh, and that was also a parody of your idiotic post. Don't think that I won't bring this up every time, just in case you opt to quote it out of context.

Go ahead.

There was an accident in 2001. Kiev cannot handle the Rebels on their own. It's not too far fetched for them to pull a false flag operation and blame it on the Rebels. If the Rebellion continues until Ukraine's economy collapses, Poroshenko will have to abandon the reconquista.

So, you are saying it was a false flag attack by the Ukrainian government?

The US reports that the airliner was hit by "surface-to-air" missile.

Remind me to never fly Malaysia Airlines, ever.

Why? No one knows in advance whether or not a missile will be launched at a particular airliner.

[Shofercia]

The post that I'm responding to says: I think the separatists got the equipment from the Russians,

After which you say: And your point is? No one is doubting that the rebels most likely obtained it from the Ukranian Air Force Air Defense.

You missed my point. Also, I don't know why Poland diverted the flight, I'm simply saying that they did.

I did miss your point and I apologize.

Back on topicness:
The Russians supplied them thing is partly right, Russia has supported them by providing them with food, medical supplies, arms, ammunition, and parts for their vehicles. Though I don't think Russia authorized them to destroy a civilian airliner, and the rebels (who are known for being paranoid about spies), detected a radar contact, fired indiscriminately, without attempting to identify it. Therefore, Russia is partly responsible for providing ammunition, as well as parts (Ukraine's got some pretty ghetto Kubs) for their AD systems.

TBQH, none of Russia's supplying would've mattered, had Kiev kept the BUKs out of Novorossiya, or at the very least out of Donetsk and Lugansk. There also wouldn't be a Rebellion, had Kiev not imposed the Oligarchs Kolomoisky and Taruta on Eastern Ukraine.

[Costa Fierro]

The US reports that the airliner was hit by "surface-to-air" missile.

Remind me to never fly Malaysia Airlines, ever.

How is getting hit by a SAM Malaysia Airlines fault? Should people say "Don't fly AA or United because they had planes that were once turned into flying missiles"?

Or have their engines dislodge from the aircraft during takeoff.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

The post that I'm responding to says: I think the separatists got the equipment from the Russians,

After which you say: And your point is? No one is doubting that the rebels most likely obtained it from the Ukranian Air Force Air Defense.

You missed my point. Also, I don't know why Poland diverted the flight, I'm simply saying that they did.

I did miss your point and I apologize.

Back on topicness:
The Russians supplied them thing is partly right, Russia has supported them by providing them with food, medical supplies, arms, ammunition, and parts for their vehicles. Though I don't think Russia authorized them to destroy a civilian airliner, and the rebels (who are known for being paranoid about spies), detected a radar contact, fired indiscriminately, without attempting to identify it. Therefore, Russia is partly responsible for providing ammunition, as well as parts (Ukraine's got some pretty ghetto Kubs) for their AD systems.

Buks. They're Buks. The Kub is something entirely different, and much older, than the Buk.

And again, there is no indication that the missile system in question was provided by Russia. Both Ukraine and Russia use the Buk, it's entirely possible the separatists captured a functional system from the Ukrainians. A rebel leader posted a tweet a couple weeks ago bragging about how they had captured the system, although it was apparently deleted sometime today.

[Costa Fierro]

There are allegedly seats that might be able to, but the NRO and USAF keep their systems rather hush-hush.

Much like the Russian systems that detected a missile launch by Israel during a tense part of the Syrian conflict.

[Costa Fierro]

I did miss your point and I apologize.

Back on topicness:
The Russians supplied them thing is partly right, Russia has supported them by providing them with food, medical supplies, arms, ammunition, and parts for their vehicles. Though I don't think Russia authorized them to destroy a civilian airliner, and the rebels (who are known for being paranoid about spies), detected a radar contact, fired indiscriminately, without attempting to identify it. Therefore, Russia is partly responsible for providing ammunition, as well as parts (Ukraine's got some pretty ghetto Kubs) for their AD systems.

Buks. They're Buks. The Kub is something entirely different, and much older, than the Buk.

And again, there is no indication that the missile system in question was provided by Russia. Both Ukraine and Russia use the Buk, it's entirely possible the separatists captured a functional system from the Ukrainians. A rebel leader posted a tweet a couple weeks ago bragging about how they had captured the system, although it was apparently deleted sometime today.

Evidence suggests that the systems were captured.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Buks. They're Buks. The Kub is something entirely different, and much older, than the Buk.

And again, there is no indication that the missile system in question was provided by Russia. Both Ukraine and Russia use the Buk, it's entirely possible the separatists captured a functional system from the Ukrainians. A rebel leader posted a tweet a couple weeks ago bragging about how they had captured the system, although it was apparently deleted sometime today.

Evidence suggests that the systems were captured.

Which is sensible. Russia learned from the US intervention in Afghanistan what happens when you provide the plucky rebels with fancy AAA.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Russia did it - they would be either insane or technically incompetent.

Very likely, then.

You know better than to quote someone, then completely rewrite their quote without the proper notations. It's misprepresentation of the player's post, and the only point in doing so is to bait. *** Warned *** on account. Now knock it off.