Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Shofercia]

Do you really want Europe to have no say in how Russia conducts Russia's affairs? Because your proposal is a two way street. If Europe goes that way, then Russia has no choice but to enhance relations with Asia ever more. And quite frankly do the Europeans want to lose access to Russian markets over Ukraine?

We'll import the oil from Canada and the U.S and we can frack as well and for the rest there is nothing Russian that we want.

Who's "we"? Are you using the Royal We? Because quite a few people in Europe want better relations with Russia. Oh, and you might be willing to pay higher prices to satisfy your anti-Russian stance, but something tells me that quite a few Europeans wouldn't. And it's not even Human Rights that you're bringing to Ukraine, it's a bunch of Oligarchs.

[Organized States]

So if NL invokes Article 4 what would happen?

Yes. Absolutely. And it's Article 5. btw.

Article 5 is collective self defense, Article 4 is consultation between member states.

[Lemanrussland]

I agree. It's been time to tell Putin to **** off, and leave the rest of Europe along for a long time, and this President still hasn't done it.

Do you really want Europe to have no say in how Russia conducts Russia's affairs? Because your proposal is a two way street. If Europe goes that way, then Russia has no choice but to enhance relations with Asia ever more. And quite frankly do the Europeans want to lose access to Russian markets over Ukraine?

We've been in this place before. If Russia wants to rebuild it's empire, reject the so-called "liberal world order" and revive the good old Soviet days by attacking and bullying it's neighbors, we should oblige them, and treat them like we treated the USSR.

[Slavija Slovenska]

All of NATO's fury would beset itself upon those responsible with disturbing amounts of force if military action is taken.

Damn straight. Europe should rearm.

Mhmmm more picture of Slovenia's Slovenska Vojska. Benefits me! just kidding

[Kulverint]

All the major front pages here in the UK are dedicated to this as Israel launches a ground invasion on Gaza...

I know its news, but what good does a headline do to the air crash investigation? Because it does hide the real story of the day from the news...

[Free Tristania]

We'll import the oil from Canada and the U.S and we can frack as well and for the rest there is nothing Russian that we want.

Who's "we"? Are you using the Royal We? Because quite a few people in Europe want better relations with Russia. Oh, and you might be willing to pay higher prices to satisfy your anti-Russian stance, but something tells me that quite a few Europeans wouldn't.

Only some of the left-wingers want "better relations with Russia". Public opinion against Russia has worsened here in Europe during the last 6 months. Very few people (the "blame the West first" crowd) still like you and yes.. even those higher prices would be preferable to any more dealings with the Fourth Reich and Fuhrer Putin.

[Free Tristania]

Do you really want Europe to have no say in how Russia conducts Russia's affairs? Because your proposal is a two way street. If Europe goes that way, then Russia has no choice but to enhance relations with Asia ever more. And quite frankly do the Europeans want to lose access to Russian markets over Ukraine?

We've been in this place before. If Russia wants to rebuild it's empire, reject the so-called "liberal world order" and revive the good old Soviet days by attacking and bullying it's neighbors, we should oblige them, and treat them like we treated the USSR.

Exactly. We had a guy like this Putin before. His name was Adolf Hitler.

[Eura]

Who's "we"? Are you using the Royal We? Because quite a few people in Europe want better relations with Russia. Oh, and you might be willing to pay higher prices to satisfy your anti-Russian stance, but something tells me that quite a few Europeans wouldn't.

Only some of the left-wingers want "better relations with Russia". Public opinion against Russia has worsened here in Europe during the last 6 months. Very few people (the "blame the West first" crowd) still like you and yes.. even those higher prices would be preferable to any more dealings with the Fourth Reich and Fuhrer Putin.

You're pretty spot on about an increase in anti-Russian sentiment.

The only people I've heard here who really take Russia's side on this already have a usually left leaning, decidedly anti-Western stance on any issue of foreign policy. They are a minority and though Russia doesn't like it, Europe is increasingly likely to stand for itself politically.

[Lemanrussland]

We'll import the oil from Canada and the U.S and we can frack as well and for the rest there is nothing Russian that we want.

Who's "we"? Are you using the Royal We? Because quite a few people in Europe want better relations with Russia. Oh, and you might be willing to pay higher prices to satisfy your anti-Russian stance, but something tells me that quite a few Europeans wouldn't. And it's not even Human Rights that you're bringing to Ukraine, it's a bunch of Oligarchs.

By "we", he means the Western nations. The West should reject Russian aggression. Appeasement and capitulation doesn't satisfy authoritarian, expansionist powers.

[Shofercia]

Do you really want Europe to have no say in how Russia conducts Russia's affairs? Because your proposal is a two way street. If Europe goes that way, then Russia has no choice but to enhance relations with Asia ever more. And quite frankly do the Europeans want to lose access to Russian markets over Ukraine?

We've been in this place before. If Russia wants to rebuild it's empire, reject the so-called "liberal world order" and revive the good old Soviet days by attacking and bullying it's neighbors, we should oblige them, and treat them like we treated the USSR.

"If". Thus far we have no idea who shot down the plane, and I'm certain that it wasn't Russia. That leaves two parties. If there's malice, it's most likely Kiev. Malice hasn't been proven. Without malice, it's 50/50 between Kiev and the Rebels. Isolating Russia over this seems a tad absurd. This is why the World Community should determine whether malice was involved, before taking any actions. Using this tragedy to drive a wedge between Russia and Europe, prior to any investigation whatsoever, seems absurd.

[Kahlenberg]

(..) want better relations with Russia

After this? I wouldn't be too sure.. Not in Western-Europe at least..

[Shofercia]

(..) want better relations with Russia

After this? I wouldn't be too sure.. Not in Western-Europe at least..

Really, you have concrete proof? Yeah, didn't think so. It would make no sense for Russia to target a plane from a friendly state.

[Free Tristania]

(..) want better relations with Russia

After this? I wouldn't be too sure.. Not in Western-Europe at least..

I don't want anything more to do with Russia. Not with that terrorist state. And I am very sure the same applies to millions of other Europeans. West or East. With this move Russia made itself an outcast. Before this, apart from the diplomatic scandal, only the Eastern Europeans are targeted... now everyone is target.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

(..) want better relations with Russia

After this? I wouldn't be too sure.. Not in Western-Europe at least..

Again, what's the motivation?

Putin is an amoral political bastard. Yes. He has demonstrated an exceptional capacity for being a jerk. What he has not shown is a tendency towards stupidity. Why, just when everybody was starting to forget about the whole Ukraine thing, would he choose to draw everybody's attention back to it in the most spectacularly awful way possible? What, exactly, is the benefit to Putin and Russia?

[Free Tristania]

After this? I wouldn't be too sure.. Not in Western-Europe at least..

Really, you have concrete proof? Yeah, didn't think so. It would make no sense for Russia to target a plane from a friendly state.

Bullshit. Last year there was a Dutch-Russian friendship year with a Russian diplomat beating up their own children and his wife marauding through The Hague (damaging cars as she went - and with her husband being arrested later on) and the Russian FSB beating up a Dutch diplomat. If this is your definition of friendship: kindly stick it up your backside.

[Lemanrussland]

We've been in this place before. If Russia wants to rebuild it's empire, reject the so-called "liberal world order" and revive the good old Soviet days by attacking and bullying it's neighbors, we should oblige them, and treat them like we treated the USSR.

"If". Thus far we have no idea who shot down the plane, and I'm certain that it wasn't Russia. That leaves two parties. If there's malice, it's most likely Kiev. Malice hasn't been proven. Without malice, it's 50/50 between Kiev and the Rebels. Isolating Russia over this seems a tad absurd. This is why the World Community should determine whether malice was involved, before taking any actions. Using this tragedy to drive a wedge between Russia and Europe, prior to any investigation whatsoever, seems absurd.

It's not about the recent incident with this plane, but about Russia's foreign policy in general.

Only some of the left-wingers want "better relations with Russia". Public opinion against Russia has worsened here in Europe during the last 6 months. Very few people (the "blame the West first" crowd) still like you and yes.. even those higher prices would be preferable to any more dealings with the Fourth Reich and Fuhrer Putin.

You're pretty spot on about an increase in anti-Russian sentiment.

The only people I've heard here who really take Russia's side on this already have a usually left leaning, decidedly anti-Western stance on any issue of foreign policy. They are a minority and though Russia doesn't like it, Europe is increasingly likely to stand for itself politically.

Anti-Russian sentiment has been on the rise for the past few years as relations between Russia and the West have deteriorated.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/ ... g-poll.pdf

I suspect Russia will not fair well in the next edition of this poll.

Edit: Found the 2014 edition, unfortunately the poll was conducted mostly before the events in Ukraine.

[Dejanic]

Can't say I'm massively surprised Russia did this.

The Union of Soviet Conservative Republics, coming to a border town near you.

[Greed and Death]

I do think it is time Europe made other arrangements for its heating oil.

[Shofercia]

Who's "we"? Are you using the Royal We? Because quite a few people in Europe want better relations with Russia. Oh, and you might be willing to pay higher prices to satisfy your anti-Russian stance, but something tells me that quite a few Europeans wouldn't.

Only some of the left-wingers want "better relations with Russia". Public opinion against Russia has worsened here in Europe during the last 6 months. Very few people (the "blame the West first" crowd) still like you and yes.. even those higher prices would be preferable to any more dealings with the Fourth Reich and Fuhrer Putin.

Sorry, I just can't take you seriously anymore. Not after that Godwin.

Only some of the left-wingers want "better relations with Russia". Public opinion against Russia has worsened here in Europe during the last 6 months. Very few people (the "blame the West first" crowd) still like you and yes.. even those higher prices would be preferable to any more dealings with the Fourth Reich and Fuhrer Putin.

You're pretty spot on about an increase in anti-Russian sentiment.

The only people I've heard here who really take Russia's side on this already have a usually left leaning, decidedly anti-Western stance on any issue of foreign policy. They are a minority and though Russia doesn't like it, Europe is increasingly likely to stand for itself politically.

Do these typical left wingers include Nigel Farage and Marine Le Pen?

Who's "we"? Are you using the Royal We? Because quite a few people in Europe want better relations with Russia. Oh, and you might be willing to pay higher prices to satisfy your anti-Russian stance, but something tells me that quite a few Europeans wouldn't. And it's not even Human Rights that you're bringing to Ukraine, it's a bunch of Oligarchs.

By "we", he means the Western nations. The West should reject Russian aggression. Appeasement and capitulation doesn't satisfy authoritarian, expansionist powers.

And do what? Break all relations with Russia? Go to war with Russia so that Oligarchs that happen to be pro-Western can stay in power in Ukraine? If Russia was attacking some little country that's all pro-Human Rights, that'd be one thing. But this isn't Russia going after the Czech Republic. This is Russia reannexing land, part of which Ukraine stole in 1994, and opting to support a power faction in Ukraine that's not supported in the West. The West is supporting Oligarchs, who are far from ideal "Human Rights" activists.

[Dejanic]

After this? I wouldn't be too sure.. Not in Western-Europe at least..

I don't want anything more to do with Russia. Not with that terrorist state. And I am very sure the same applies to millions of other Europeans. West or East. With this move Russia made itself an outcast. Before this, apart from the diplomatic scandal, only the Eastern Europeans are targeted... now everyone is target.

I was honestly passively-pro =/neutral Russia a year ago, but I now completely agree with this. Cut ties with Russia, this is basically turning into a cold war situation, but it isn't "Capitalism vs Communism", it's "democracy vs corrupt national corporatism".

Though we can't completely blame the Russian people their media is a big cause of a lot of this stupid tension, this is a good example. (Top fake news stories) https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 534&type=1

[Shofercia]

Really, you have concrete proof? Yeah, didn't think so. It would make no sense for Russia to target a plane from a friendly state.

Bullshit. Last year there was a Dutch-Russian friendship year with a Russian diplomat beating up their own children and his wife marauding through The Hague (damaging cars as she went - and with her husband being arrested later on) and the Russian FSB beating up a Dutch diplomat. If this is your definition of friendship: kindly stick it up your backside.

Shit happened with diplomats. If this is the best you can do, then it just shows that you're scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel. You're Russophobia is well known in the halls of NSG, Free Tistania:

FT on Freedom of Speech: viewtopic.php?p=19257638#p19257638

I think that it could be a good first start to ban RussiaToday here in Europe (and the US) and to block the website.

FT's Russophibia in 2013, to a query of what country's the biggest threat, his response was: China & Russia
viewtopic.php?p=17548474#p17548474

There's also another "gem" by FT: viewtopic.php?p=13653270#p13653270

Me:

Because nuking a country that borders Russia is a brilliant tactical move, amirite?

FT:

It not like anyone lives right next door to Korea. Apart from the Chinese. Maybe you should look up the population density of that particular part of Russia ? Two people and a half a horsehead. And Russians don't give a shit about their people and neither do Chinese so if the North Koreans can be nuked back to the year dot everyone will be happy. Unlike some liberal idiot like Obama much rather sees LA nuked to pieces.

I could just keep on going...

[Kahlenberg]

After this? I wouldn't be too sure.. Not in Western-Europe at least..

Really, you have concrete proof? Yeah, didn't think so. It would make no sense for Russia to target a plane from a friendly state.

I agree, that makes no sense at all. An attack with the intent to shoot down the plane can be ruled out I think. Still, Russia can be held accountable for arming the rebels, which gave them the opportunity to get their hands on high-tech equipment like this, that should never be used by people who aren't fully trained and authorized to use it.

Ukraine has even less reason to shoot down any plane, since the rebels have no planes - therefore it would make little sense to believe it is a rebel plane. Ukraine would be stupid to down a Russian plane since it would mean war with Russia and their inevitable destruction, and even more stupid to down a European carrier - risking the loss of support from their most important ally. Note that the Ukrainians haven't shot down a single plane so far - why start now? Next to that, a rebel commander claimed the downing of a Ukrainian transport airplane minutes after contact was lost with this plane on his Twitter. An accident, therefore, in which the plane was mistaken for a Ukrainian transport by rebels, seems the most likely scenario. An accident made possible by severe Russian negligence.

[Napkiraly]

Only some of the left-wingers want "better relations with Russia". Public opinion against Russia has worsened here in Europe during the last 6 months. Very few people (the "blame the West first" crowd) still like you and yes.. even those higher prices would be preferable to any more dealings with the Fourth Reich and Fuhrer Putin.

Sorry, I just can't take you seriously anymore. Not after that Godwin.

You're pretty spot on about an increase in anti-Russian sentiment.

The only people I've heard here who really take Russia's side on this already have a usually left leaning, decidedly anti-Western stance on any issue of foreign policy. They are a minority and though Russia doesn't like it, Europe is increasingly likely to stand for itself politically.

Do these typical left wingers include Nigel Farage and Marine Le Pen?

By "we", he means the Western nations. The West should reject Russian aggression. Appeasement and capitulation doesn't satisfy authoritarian, expansionist powers.

And do what? 1)Break all relations with Russia? 2)Go to war with Russia so that Oligarchs that happen to be pro-Western can stay in power in Ukraine? If Russia was attacking some little country that's all pro-Human Rights, that'd be one thing. But this isn't Russia going after the Czech Republic. This is Russia 3)reannexing land, 4)part of which Ukraine stole in 1994, and 5)opting to support a power faction in Ukraine that's not supported in the West. The West is supporting Oligarchs, who are far from ideal "Human Rights" activists.

1) Of course not. Embassies and other institutions are great avenues to insert intelligence agents into the country.
2) No, but we can always help the Ukrainian government crush the insurrectionists. Then of course there is support our people within Russia. Should the situation ever end up, in the far future, deeming it, we could also fund groups that would...be a hindrance on Russian security.
3 &4) Irredentism is never cool. Also didn't Russia drop its claims in the late 90's?
5) Hence why we need to check Russia. They are trying to stop the expansion of the Western SOI.

[Lemanrussland]

I don't want anything more to do with Russia. Not with that terrorist state. And I am very sure the same applies to millions of other Europeans. West or East. With this move Russia made itself an outcast. Before this, apart from the diplomatic scandal, only the Eastern Europeans are targeted... now everyone is target.

I was honestly passively-pro =/neutral Russia a year ago, but I now completely agree with this. Cut ties with Russia, this is basically turning into a cold war situation, but it isn't "Capitalism vs Communism", it's "democracy vs corrupt national corporatism".

Though we can't completely blame the Russian people their media is a big cause of a lot of this stupid tension, this is a good example. (Top fake news stories) https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 534&type=1

I don't blame regular Russians at all.

You are right about the media situation in Russia. The media in Russia is mostly dominated by the central government, and if you express anti-government viewpoints, the police have a habit of harassing you, or you get a nice dose of Polonium.

[Alien Space Bats]

Again, what's the motivation?

Putin is an amoral political bastard. Yes. He has demonstrated an exceptional capacity for being a jerk. What he has not shown is a tendency towards stupidity. Why, just when everybody was starting to forget about the whole Ukraine thing, would he choose to draw everybody's attention back to it in the most spectacularly awful way possible? What, exactly, is the benefit to Putin and Russia?

Are we speaking hypothetically here?

Strictly speaking, if we are, then it would be this: To send a signal to the West to knock it off with the sanctions and let Russia do whatever the Hell it please within its "sphere of influence", lest Westerners get killed in "accidents" like this. The underlying assumption, of course, is that the West doesn't have the balls to respond in any way other than further sanctions, which would in turn be met with more "accidents". In time, the West, unwilling to escalate (or continue paying a price in blood to maintain their anti-Russian sanctions), would back off.

Or so the theory goes.

Again, this is strictly a hypothetical response to a hypothetical question — nothing more.

ADDENDUM: Bonus points here for the separatists refusing to allow anybody but Russian investigators to the crash scene, with Russian investigators then hauling off all the debris to someplace in Russia, conducting their own investigation, and then announcing to the world that the Malaysian 777 blew up in mid-air spontaneously, and that the Boeing Corporation's flagship product is unsafe, with a call for customers to demand a recall and refund that would bankrupt America's foremost commercial aircraft vendor.

See, I can come up with all kinds of interesting conspiracy theories, too. All one needs for that sort of thing is a complete isolation from any relevant facts.