NationStates

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:31 am**

Organized States wrote:
Punkvania wrote:
PBS is still a great source here in the states. Citing various sources, there are at least a few programs that discuss the matters at hand the way people in the community can understand.

PBS as well. Though, my local PBS station sucks, and I barely get any of their programming.

Where are you from? I should have said that many PBS stations have a fair approach to the news, but there is a rift in very politically charged regions. I mean... it's like Antiques Roadshow is more important than anything else sometimes.

(I'm in Denver, Colorado BTW)

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:39 am**

Punkvania wrote:
Organized States wrote:PBS as well. Though, my local PBS station sucks, and I barely get any of their programming.

Where are you from? I should have said that many PBS stations have a fair approach to the news, but there is a rift in very politically charged regions. I mean... it's like Antiques Roadshow is more important than anything else sometimes.

(I'm in Denver, Colorado BTW)

I'm in AZ, and it's not quite the politics, it's their broadcasting equipment. It sucks most of the time. I'll have hour long gaps, but this isn't the topic.

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:21 am**

If you're in Australia and are intrested in more about the crash, put your TV on Channel 9

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:45 am**

Organized States wrote:
Punkvania wrote:
Where are you from? I should have said that many PBS stations have a fair approach to the news, but there is a rift in very politically charged regions. I mean... it's like Antiques Roadshow is more important than anything else sometimes.

(I'm in Denver, Colorado BTW)

I'm in AZ, and it's not quite the politics, it's their broadcasting equipment. It sucks most of the time. I'll have hour long gaps, but this isn't the topic.

Oh shoot. You know I sometimes am amazed that so many more people live there than Colorado. Phoenix should have taller skyscrapers than anywhere in the SW... but I have learned now that the conservative right live in most of the rural towns in dry valleys. And yeah... off-topic. Still, my thoughts on information.

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:20 am**

Costa Fierro wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:Vice is what would happen if a bunch of left-wing frat guys in their early 20's would create an independent media outlet, but nevertheless they've somehow managed to be better than most mainstream media.

*peers through cloud of smoke*

fuckin weed man

*fades away*

"Smoking weed with the President of Uruguay", their whole Pharmacopeia series, that time when one of their reporters shot up homemade "heroin" with some Czech dudes, etc. They're like the stoners of the media industry.

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:48 am**

Dutch national media is now reporting heavy fighting surrounding the crash site. Reportedly, the Ukranian forces are trying to capture the crash site is a part of an offensive on donetsk.

source: (in dutch) http://nos.nl/artikel/679876-oekraine-w ... veren.html

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:52 am**

The 44th Indp Legion wrote:Dutch national media is now reporting heavy fighting surrounding the crash site. Reportedly, the Ukranian forces are trying to capture the crash site is a part of an offensive on donetsk.

source: (in dutch) http://nos.nl/artikel/679876-oekraine-w ... veren.html

So much for the 40 km "no fighting" zone..

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:10 pm**

The Alma Mater wrote:
The 44th Indp Legion wrote:Dutch national media is now reporting heavy fighting surrounding the crash site. Reportedly, the Ukranian forces are trying to capture the crash site is a part of an offensive on donetsk.

source: (in dutch) http://nos.nl/artikel/679876-oekraine-w ... veren.html

So much for the 40 km "no fighting" zone..

They're shelling "near Grabove".

Not sure if this means that shells are dropping worryingly close to the crash site, or people only know where the crash site is because it's next to Grabove and they're using that as the sole geographical reference for Eastern Ukraine that is not "Donetsk".

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:30 pm**

The (dutch language) twitter feed embedded on the website reports fighting at Torez, early reports on a (less reputable) site reported claims from someone at the crash site seeing artillery fire. I'll try to dig that up, but it's probably been removed due to being wrong.

EDIT: dug a little bit among less reputable sources and found an article (in dutch again, sorry)
This one claims there were fights at Horlivka, Sjachtarsk and Torez (~40, ~20 and ~15km from the crash site respectively). According to the article local media reports 20 to 30 civillian deaths at Horlivka.
source: (in dutch, it mentinos sources from New York times though) http://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/383 ... veren.html

The previously linked source has since been updated to include a more detailed report on the fighting near Torez to tie in with later posted material, including an armed guard, guarding the sealed wagon with passenger's personal belongings, leaving the premesis hurriedly in an adorable blue car. It now also mentions the evacuation of OVSE workers and the being-put-on-hold of the international/dutch investigators which were supposed to go to the scene today.

Video source: (commentary in dutch) http://nos.nl/video/680048-angstige-ure ... torez.html

ENGLISH LANGUAGE SOURCES ARE GOOD MKAY:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28509522 english language source on the dutch investigators going NOOOOPE (that is, not going into bloody hotzone)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28472312 corroborates reports of the crash site being devoid of (the pro-russian) guards/rebel retreat

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:14 pm**

A highly placed rebel, speaking to the AP this week, admitted that rebels were responsible. He said a unit based in the hometown of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, made up of both Russians and Ukrainians, was involved in the firing of an SA-11 from near Snizhne. The rebel, who has direct access to the inner circle of the insurgent leadership in Donetsk, said that he could not be named because he was contradicting the rebels' official line.

The rebels believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military plane, this person said. Instead, they hit the passenger jet flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. All 298 people aboard were killed.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/what-happened-day-flight-17-was-downed

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:53 pm**

Gravlen wrote:
A highly placed rebel, speaking to the AP this week, admitted that rebels were responsible. He said a unit based in the hometown of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, made up of both Russians and Ukrainians, was involved in the firing of an SA-11 from near Snizhne. The rebel, who has direct access to the inner circle of the insurgent leadership in Donetsk, said that he could not be named because he was contradicting the rebels' official line.

The rebels believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military plane, this person said. Instead, they hit the passenger jet flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. All 298 people aboard were killed.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/what-happened-day-flight-17-was-downed

If the Ukrainian counter-terror chief is claiming that the Buk was sent "back" to Russia on a flatbed at 1am, it runs contrary to the widely-circulated video, which was clearly shot during daylight hours. Begging the question, when and where was that footage actually filmed, and why was the Ukrainian security forces' purportedly-official Youtube channel claiming it was genuine?

Critically, that account does not suggest that the gun crew was made up of Russian military personnel - just people described as ethnic Russians.
But still, this is looking like Occam's Razor in action.

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:26 pm**

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Gravlen wrote:
A highly placed rebel, speaking to the AP this week, admitted that rebels were responsible. He said a unit based in the hometown of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, made up of both Russians and Ukrainians, was involved in the firing of an SA-11 from near Snizhne. The rebel, who has direct access to the inner circle of the insurgent leadership in Donetsk, said that he could not be named because he was contradicting the rebels' official line.

The rebels believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military plane, this person said. Instead, they hit the passenger jet flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. All 298 people aboard were killed.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/what-happened-day-flight-17-was-downed

If the Ukrainian counter-terror chief is claiming that the Buk was sent "back" to Russia on a flatbed at 1am, it runs contrary to the widely-circulated video, which was clearly shot during daylight hours. Begging the question, when and where was that footage actually filmed, and why was the Ukrainian security forces' purportedly-official Youtube channel claiming it was genuine?

Critically, that account does not suggest that the gun crew was made up of Russian military personnel - just people described as ethnic Russians.
But still, this is looking like Occam's Razor in action.

My guess on the Buk being shipped was that it was captured from the Ukrainian base; then, once the rebels mistakenly shot the passenger-liner, the Russian government said "all right, you should probably give that to us for safekeeping."

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:30 pm**

Which is exactly what I figure as well.
The rebels had previously claimed, three months prior to the incident, to have captured a Ukrainian Buk missile launcher from a base, presumably including at least some of the infrastructure for a functional battery and maybe even some defecting personnel.

Though subsequent accounts do suggest that several Buk launchers are in the possession of the rebels, but these are claims widely circulated by the US and western media.

Posted: **Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:31 pm**

I posted the initial exclusive by Reuters a few pages back (which everyone pretty much ignored). It doesn't really need to be official Russian military personnel, but say, former conscripts who are familiar with the system who either came from Russia as "volunteers" or defected Ukrainian personnel. After all, basic training and a few years out of official military service would essentially be enough to know what buttons to press but not how to actually figure out what it is you were targeting.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:43 am**

What is funny that everybody blames teh ebul Rushans yet.nobody thought about that Eurocontrol let the planes to fly over a war zone. As if nothing could happen.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:12 am**

Scholmeria wrote:What is funny that everybody blames teh ebul Rushans yet.nobody thought about that Eurocontrol let the planes to fly over a war zone. As if nothing could happen.

Except, there was no credible threat at their altitude before MH-17. So, they were considered safe, so no, not really Eurocontrol's fault.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:56 am**

This is only the fault of Russia and the pro-Russian rebels. Nobody else is to blame for this but them. They caused a terrible tragedy and ended so many lives all because Putin couldn't stand to see his ego hurt by a Ukrainian victory in the east of the country so he armed the rebels who shot down a civilian plane and killed innocent people who had nothing to do with the conflict.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:45 am**

Imperializt Russia wrote:Which is exactly what I figure as well.
The rebels had previously claimed, three months prior to the incident, to have captured a Ukrainian Buk missile launcher from a base, presumably including at least some of the infrastructure for a functional battery and maybe even some defecting personnel.
.

If nothing else, one imagines that you can find a former Buk-1 operator in a city of 1.5 million people that has air defense facilities in it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:43 am**

Allanea wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Which is exactly what I figure as well.
The rebels had previously claimed, three months prior to the incident, to have captured a Ukrainian Buk missile launcher from a base, presumably including at least some of the infrastructure for a functional battery and maybe even some defecting personnel.
.

If nothing else, one imagines that you can find a former Buk-1 operator in a city of 1.5 million people that has air defense facilities in it.

Regardless of Russia being directly responsible for the tragedy by either providing training, trained personnel or allowing the passage of Russian militias into Ukraine to include air defense specialists, or not, they are still indirectly responsible by creating the circumstances in which the rebels were able to capture and operate the Ukrainian SAM system.

A good analogy would be someone who turns a blind eye to, or even supports a killer in stealing a gun, and said killer ends up killing someone else than their intended target with said gun. The act is still a murder: intent to kill is still there even the target was misidentified. Killing the wrong person, with intent to kill (albeit a different person) is still very much a murder and not manslaughter. And Russia is at the very least an accessory if not a full blown accomplice to this.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:46 pm**

Scholmeria wrote:What is funny that everybody blames teh ebul Rushans yet.nobody thought about that Eurocontrol let the planes to fly over a war zone. As if nothing could happen.

Nobody is blaming Russia.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:21 pm**

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
Allanea wrote:

If nothing else, one imagines that you can find a former Buk-1 operator in a city of 1.5 million people that has air defense facilities in it.

Regardless of Russia being directly responsible for the tragedy by either providing training, trained personnel or allowing the passage of Russian militias into Ukraine to include air defense specialists, or not, they are still indirectly responsible by creating the circumstances in which the rebels were able to capture and operate the Ukrainian SAM system.

A good analogy would be someone who turns a blind eye to, or even supports a killer in stealing a gun, and said killer ends up killing someone else than their intended target with said gun. The act is still a murder: intent to kill is still there even the target was misidentified. Killing the wrong person, with intent to kill (albeit a different person) is still very much a murder and not manslaughter. And Russia is at the very least an accessory if not a full blown accomplice to this.

International relations and military intelligence are a little bit more complicated than you're making it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:23 pm**

Roski wrote:
Scholmeria wrote:What is funny that everybody blames teh ebul Rushans yet.nobody thought about that Eurocontrol let the planes to fly over a war zone. As if nothing could happen.

Nobody is blaming Russia.

Have you been watching CNN? They compare Putin to Gadhaffi, and say that Russia needs to. "Be made a pariah state".

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:24 pm**

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Roski wrote:
Nobody is blaming Russia.

Have you been watching CNN? They compare Putin to Gadhaffi, and say that Russia needs to. "Be made a pariah state".

I don't watch the Communist News Network.

Its so full of bullshit even that 140% of the population election seems believable.

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:24 pm**

Roski wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Have you been watching CNN? They compare Putin to Gadhaffi, and say that Russia needs to. "Be made a pariah state".

I don't watch the Communist News Network.

Its so full of bullshit even that 140% of the population election seems believable.

CNN communist? :rofl:

Posted: **Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:25 pm**

Geilinor wrote:
Roski wrote:
I don't watch the Communist News Network.

Its so full of bullshit even that 140% of the population election seems believable.

CNN communist?

Right. A communist comes to defend his news network.

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Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine