Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Arkinesia]

They kept insisting they had proof it was a spy plane, and then when that was revealed to be a lie, they insisted that it was a false flag with an empty aircraft to discredit the Soviet Union.

Can you decide already? Is it "Russian" or the "Soviet" habit of "lying outright". 'cause in 1983 both Russia and the Ukraine were just parts of the USSR.

Oh spare me the semantics. The comparison is perfectly legitimate, since Putin has idolized Yuri Andropov (director of the KGB in 1983, fwiw) and has made no bones about it.

[Gravlen]

It bothers me a little that Malaysian Airlines was focused more on getting to their destination faster than getting there safely. I mean one of their planes already vanished without a trace. Maybe they should've taken that as a sign to be a little more careful?

Many other airlines used the exact same route. It's not as if Malaysia Airlines was alone. They followed all of the safety restrictions, such as staying above a restricted altitude, it could have happened to any of the many airlines flying that same route.

Indeed. It could easily have been Singapore Airlines SQ351 instead.


http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/south-east-asia/story/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-singapore-airlines-plane-sq351-was-abou

[Tahar Joblis]

I would be surprised if it was possible to access data from a black box at all without the proper authorization. I would be even more surprised if you could delete specific data from the black box. Probably afar an accident you can never delete the data, wouldn't be that hard to set up that way.

To my knowledge, it is quite easy to "erase" data from a "black box". All you basically have to do is cut the part of the tape you don't want. However, to experts, it can be spotted that the tape on the black box was tampered with, and that would raise questions about missing data.

Simpler solution: Buy a new black box. Give it the input data you want it to show.

[Shofercia]

That's not the only difference

No, it's just the major salient difference.

Again, that's a debate for another thread. You keep on boldly trying to go where almost every NSGer has boldly gone before - off topic!

Apparently that's not enough for you, so you repeat that ad nauseum. Population removal bad. Very bad. Anyways, what I am saying, is that it's foolish to equate Crimea with Lebensraum, since the locals aren't being removed from Crimea.

You're still using the word wrong. "Lebensraum," again, isn't an activity or process. It's a noun. A static, inactive noun.

What I am equating is the quality of the excuse. The excuses offered for why Russia should be wanting to control more territory westward, in particular by United Marxist Nations, are every bit as flimsy as the excuses offered by Hitler. In some cases, the excuses offered by Putin are the same excuses - claiming that Russia has the right and responsibility to intervene for the good of ethnic Russians, for example.

You deviously used the word "Lebensraum" to invoke certain feelings, when words such as irredentism, or other types of reannexations would easily work. But no, you're using Lebensraum. Your goal is to associate Putin with Hitler and you'll try to do that in any way that you can. When you accuse others of Lebensraum in Eastern Europe, you are doing it either because you don't know anything about Eastern European History, or because you are deviously trying to defame the person using charged language. And the fact that you tried to associate Hitler with UMN and Putin with Hitler merely shows how utterly devious that post is. I'll remember that post Tahar Joblis, next time you try to ask "why can't Russia treat Ukraine like Serbia?!"

I see, so if China conquers those uninhabited islands, they're engaging in Lebensraum

Lebensraum, again, is not an activity. Lebensraum is a static passive object. It can be considered synonymous with "livable space." Your reaction to my use of the word has demonstrated nothing but the fact that your grasp of Germanic languages is shaky. Saying "engaging in Lebensraum" is like saying "doing potato" or "performing the condominium." It's complete nonsense phraseology. Come back to this topic when you've figured out what the word actually means. "Lebensraum" isn't a policy. It's a way of describing territory.

Lebensraum is a charged term used to defame others, akin to equating people with Hitler. You've found another way to Godwin, and are so proud of that accomplishment. Now you're mad at me because I'm calling you out on it.

Yep, there comes the defense.

Defense?

Let's be blunt: War pushes people to migrate. This is one of the major reasons that Ossetia has experienced depopulation: Not simply residents being killed, but residents leaving because war is dangerous and inconvenient.

People have migrated out of the eastern parts of the Ukraine because of the fighting. Most have probably gone elsewhere in the Ukraine, as the population of the area was (and may still be) majority-Ukrainian. There's been very serious depopulation of the region. Easily >10% in many towns and cities.

The fact that some alleged 110,000 persons have fled to Russia out of the some 6.7 million people living in the area before Putin's partisans popped in for party-time... well, it's neither surprising nor exceptional in any way, nor does it reflect any better on the separatists than on the Ukrainian government. Nor is it the fault of the Ukrainian government that armed separatists largely organized under Muscovite leadership (quite literally in the case of Borodai) decided to start a war.

It's amazing. You simply twist and turn everything into an anti-Russian argument. If Russia launched a manned mission to Mars, you'd probably say something like "but they didn't aid their neighbors that do everything to limit their power, what scumbags!" or something along those lines. The 110,000 isn't some alleged number; it's provided by the UN as a lowball estimate. Despite this clear proof, since that number happens to be pro-Russian, to you it's "some alleged number".

MOSCOW, June 27 (RIA Novosti) – Some 110,000 people have fled Ukraine to Russia this year, while 54,400 others have been displaced within the country, Melissa Fleming, chief spokeswoman of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), said Friday.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140627/190734 ... 0--UN.html

But hey, when the UN isn't bashing Russia, it's just some alleged agency, amirite?

Most have probably gone elsewhere in the Ukraine,

A certain poster needs to do rudimentary research before telling us all how mean Russia is... And yeah, war pushes people to migrate. So does the central government's bombing of their homes, their schools, their utility stations, etc. Again, I'm game for a referendum on independence, are you? Just the people who lived there, we can use the 2001 census, as well as hospital birth and death records, migration records, etc.

I wasn't aware that the Russian Civil War, (1917-1922,) was ancient history.

You had three examples of the West intervening in internal affairs. Your other two examples (which I was referring to) were from the 13th and 16th centuries to try to establish a pattern of the West intervening in Russian civil affairs.

I really don't need to establish it. The pattern's there for anyone who's not blind. And considering that since the thirteenth century Russia only had 3 Civil Wars and that the West intervened in all three, I don't really understand what is it that I need to establish. 3/3 is 100 percent established.

The Russian Civil War I discussed in much more detail.

If by "discussed" you mean went completely off topic and ignored the point that I made, then yes, you "discussed" it.

The fact that German-funded militants systematically disrupted the operations of the transitional government and then conducted a coup in 1917, overthrowing the transitional government shortly before elections took place, is worth some note. The fact that foreign support was offered for anti-Communist forces during the Civil War had nothing to do with dislike for Russia and everything to do with fear of communism.

Something tells me that if the Whites were the stronger side, it'd be "fear of resurgent Russian Imperialism". To intervene in WWI, Churchill used "Little Belgium" as a moral concern; considering what was going on in the Congo, I'd say that it was rather amoral to preach morality in favor of supporting Belgium. Add to this the prolongued British policy to weaken the Russian Empire and I highly doubt that it had "nothing to do with dislike for Russia and everything to do with fear of Communism". Perhaps fear of Communism was also the cause for Napoleon's Invasion of Russia.

Tell, would you support Russia returning all of its land that it gained during those wars?

A great deal of the land that Russia took in those invasions no longer belongs to Russia.

But it should be given back regardless, if it was so "improperly" seized! L'wow for Poland! L'wow for Poland! L'wow for Poland! Let's rectify Stalin's error, and get L'wow into the EU, what do you say? I say L'wow for Poland!

Then you brought up the Russian Ukrainian Civil War, where Russian Ukrainian troops did a lot of invading places that didn't want to be Russian Ukrainian. How about we hold a true and democratic vote, Tahar Joblis, on whether the DonBass Republic, Crimea, Novorossiya, Carpathia, etc, wants to be with the soon-to-be economically devastated Kiev Government, how about that?

An actual and honestly conducted vote in Crimea without any Russian invasion would have been unlikely to get a majority.

I favor allowing a clear and honest democratically expressed opinion leading to independence and if necessary realignment. I see no evidence that any election conducted by Russian separatists would be anything but a sham.

So did Putin recently purchase Gallup?

RT repost of a Gallup conducted poll. Now tell me, Tahar Joblis, is 82 percent more or less than 50 percent. Do tell!

I brought up WWI in the context of Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War, after Russia withdrew from WWI, and was promptly invaded by the Allies during the Russian Civil War.

The Russian armies did their fair share of invading... both in WWI and in the civil war itself.

Mongolia, as I pointed out, wasn't even part of the Russian Empire before its collapse.

Again, if you're going 3 for 3, that's what we call a pattern in California. Not sure what you call a pattern in Kiev, and judging by Kiev's economic policies...

Speaking of being greedy, if Russia was actually greedy during the Napoleonic Wars, Russia would've sided with Prussia kicked the Anglo-Austrian-French butts and captured all of Poland

Bullshit.

Only in your dreams. In reality, that's a well known fact: http://www.sparknotes.com/history/europ ... on10.rhtml

The future of Napoleon's Polish Grand Duchy of Warsaw remained the most problematic issue. Alexander had desired over the territory for years, but Austria and Prussia both had parts of the old Polish kingdom. The Prussians entered an agreement with Russia, under which Russia would support Prussia's bid for Saxony and Prussia would support Russia's bid for Poland; in addition, Prussia would hand over its share of Poland to Russian. Metternich, however, feared that Russia would become too powerful in this deal. To combat the Russian-Prussian alliance, on January 3, 1815, Metternich, Castlereagh, and Talleyrand signed a secret treaty agreeing to oppose the Prussians and Russians. In the end, the Congress of Vienna created a small Poland ("Congress Poland") with Alexander installed as the king. With Russia satisfied, Prussia lost its ally and only was able to get a minor piece of Saxony.

Or are you seriously going to tell me that the Russo-Prussian armies wouldn't be able to beat the armies of Austria-Hungary, Rapp's "mighty" French forces and the British Army?

Tsar Alexander made nice with Napoleon for a couple years so he could pursue his own territorial ambition. Then he made plans to turn on Napoleon. Only problem was that Napoleon saw it coming and turned on him first. The sequence of events 1808-1812 is actually pretty similar to the Hitler-Stalin routine 1939-1941 when you think about it that way.

See, this is why I cannot discuss history with you with a straight face. Posts like that. Csar Alexander turning on Napoleon... riiight. That's exactly why half of the Russian Army was fighting the Ottomans, to make the turn more efficient

When your economy is fucked, you don't piss off your biggest trading partner

You act as though it's Ukrainians' fault that the Russians have acted like enormous assholes. Putin is the one sitting around violating the territorial integrity of a neighboring sovereign nation, holding trade hostage to a political strong-man routine, and acting in bad faith, e.g., the earlier Russian ban on Poroshenko's chocolate when it looked like Yanukovich was going to sign with the EU.

So Putin seizing Crimea in 2014 is the reason for Ukraine's governments neglecting their economy between 1991 and 2013! I was blind, but now I see the...

Sorry, I can't take this anymore. It's just too much bullshit for me. Just stop. Speaking of acting in bad faith, it seems that the only country that happens to have trouble moving Russian gas from point A to point B without stealing it, happens to be Ukraine. And it usually occurs after an Orange Revolution. Hmm, I wonder, why's Putin building so many pipelines around Ukraine? Oh yeah, it's just to be mean to Poproshenko, that must be it!

[Shofercia]

Dutch forensic teams onsite have reported that rebels have been cooperative and have directed the train carrying the bodies to depart for Kharkiv, after which they will be returned to the Netherlands for identification.

The Dutch experts have further stated they are "impressed" by the work of the local response teams in handling and storing the bodies. Peter van Vliet, the leader of the expert team, is quoted as saying "I think they did a hell of a job in a hell of a place".

Additionally, a Malaysian delegation in Donetsk reports that the rebels have agreed to turn over the flight recorders to the Malaysian government.

Finally some good news!

The UN Security Council has unanimously approved a comprehensive probe of the MH17 crash. 15-0 vote.

Even more proof that Russians are behind it according to John Kerry!

>Calls for UNSC Peacekeepers in Donbass
>No one responds to call for Peacekeepers
>UMN is sad

I did!

[Shofercia]

No, it's just the major salient difference.

Again, that's a debate for another thread. You keep on boldly trying to go where almost every NSGer has boldly gone before - off topic!

You're still using the word wrong. "Lebensraum," again, isn't an activity or process. It's a noun. A static, inactive noun.

What I am equating is the quality of the excuse. The excuses offered for why Russia should be wanting to control more territory westward, in particular by United Marxist Nations, are every bit as flimsy as the excuses offered by Hitler. In some cases, the excuses offered by Putin are the same excuses - claiming that Russia has the right and responsibility to intervene for the good of ethnic Russians, for example.

You deviously used the word "Lebensraum" to invoke certain feelings, when words such as irredentism, or other types of reannexations would easily work. But no, you're using Lebensraum. Your goal is to associate Putin with Hitler and you'll try to do that in any way that you can. When you accuse others of Lebensraum in Eastern Europe, you are doing it either because you don't know anything about Eastern European History, or because you are deviously trying to defame the person using charged language. And the fact that you tried to associate Hitler with UMN and Putin with Hitler merely shows how utterly devious that post is. I'll remember that post Tahar Joblis, next time you try to ask "why can't Russia treat Ukraine like Serbia?!"

Lebensraum, again, is not an activity. Lebensraum is a static passive object. It can be considered synonymous with "livable space." Your reaction to my use of the word has demonstrated nothing but the fact that your grasp of Germanic languages is shaky. Saying "engaging in Lebensraum" is like saying "doing potato" or "performing the condominium." It's complete nonsense phraseology. Come back to this topic when you've figured out what the word actually means. "Lebensraum" isn't a policy. It's a way of describing territory.

Lebensraum is a charged term used to defame others, akin to equating people with Hitler. You've found another way to Godwin, and are so proud of that accomplishment. Now you're mad at me because I'm calling you out on it.

Defense?

Let's be blunt: War pushes people to migrate. This is one of the major reasons that Ossetia has experienced depopulation: Not simply residents being killed, but residents leaving because war is dangerous and inconvenient.

People have migrated out of the eastern parts of the Ukraine because of the fighting. Most have probably gone elsewhere in the Ukraine, as the population of the area was (and may still be) majority-Ukrainian. There's been very serious depopulation of the region. Easily >10% in many towns and cities.

The fact that some alleged 110,000 persons have fled to Russia out of the some 6.7 million people living in the area before Putin's partisans popped in for party-time... well, it's neither surprising nor exceptional in any way, nor does it reflect any better on the separatists than on the Ukrainian government. Nor is it the fault of the Ukrainian government that armed separatists largely organized under Muscovite leadership (quite literally in the case of Borodai) decided to start a war.

It's amazing. You simply twist and turn everything into an anti-Russian argument. If Russia launched a manned mission to Mars, you'd probably say something like "but they didn't aid their neighbors that do everything to limit their power, what scumbags!" or something along those lines. The 110,000 isn't some alleged number; it's provided by the UN as a lowball estimate. Despite this clear proof, since that number happens to be pro-Russian, to you it's "some alleged number".

MOSCOW, June 27 (RIA Novosti) – Some 110,000 people have fled Ukraine to Russia this year, while 54,400 others have been displaced within the country, Melissa Fleming, chief spokeswoman of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), said Friday.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140627/190734 ... 0--UN.html

But hey, when the UN isn't bashing Russia, it's just some alleged agency, amirite?

Most have probably gone elsewhere in the Ukraine,

A certain poster needs to do rudimentary research before telling us all how mean Russia is... And yeah, war pushes people to migrate. So does the central government's bombing of their homes, their schools, their utility stations, etc. Again, I'm game for a referendum on independence, are you? Just the people who lived there, we can use the 2001 census, as well as hospital birth and death records, migration records, etc.

You had three examples of the West intervening in internal affairs. Your other two examples (which I was referring to) were from the 13th and 16th centuries to try to establish a pattern of the West intervening in Russian civil affairs.

I really don't need to establish it. The pattern's there for anyone who's not blind. And considering that since the thirteenth century Russia only had 3 Civil Wars and that the West intervened in all three, I don't really understand what is it that I need to establish. 3/3 is 100 percent established.

The Russian Civil War I discussed in much more detail.

If by "discussed" you mean went completely off topic and ignored the point that I made, then yes, you "discussed" it.

The fact that German-funded militants systematically disrupted the operations of the transitional government and then conducted a coup in 1917, overthrowing the transitional government shortly before elections took place, is worth some note. The fact that foreign support was offered for anti-Communist forces during the Civil War had nothing to do with dislike for Russia and everything to do with fear of communism.

Something tells me that if the Whites were the stronger side, it'd be "fear of resurgent Russian Imperialism". To intervene in WWI, Churchill used "Little Belgium" as a moral concern; considering what was going on in the Congo, I'd say that it was rather amoral to preach morality in favor of supporting Belgium. Add to this the prolongued British policy to weaken the Russian Empire and I highly doubt that it had "nothing to do with dislike for Russia and everything to do with fear of Communism". Perhaps fear of Communism was also the cause for Napoleon's Invasion of Russia.

A great deal of the land that Russia took in those invasions no longer belongs to Russia.

But it should be given back regardless, if it was so "improperly" seized! L'wow for Poland! L'wow for Poland! L'wow for Poland! Let's rectify Stalin's error, and get L'wow into the EU, what do you say? I say L'wow for Poland!

An actual and honestly conducted vote in Crimea without any Russian invasion would have been unlikely to get a majority.

I favor allowing a clear and honest democratically expressed opinion leading to independence and if necessary realignment. I see no evidence that any election conducted by Russian separatists would be anything but a sham.

So did Putin recently purchase Gallup?

RT repost of a Gallup conducted poll. Now tell me, Tahar Joblis, is 82 percent more or less than 50 percent. Do tell!

The Russian armies did their fair share of invading... both in WWI and in the civil war itself.

Mongolia, as I pointed out, wasn't even part of the Russian Empire before its collapse.

Again, if you're going 3 for 3, that's what we call a pattern in California. Not sure what you call a pattern in Kiev, and judging by Kiev's economic policies...

Bullshit.

Only in your dreams. In reality, that's a well known fact: http://www.sparknotes.com/history/europ ... on10.rhtml

The future of Napoleon's Polish Grand Duchy of Warsaw remained the most problematic issue. Alexander had desired over the territory for years, but Austria and Prussia both had parts of the old Polish kingdom. The Prussians entered an agreement with Russia, under which Russia would support Prussia's bid for Saxony and Prussia would support Russia's bid for Poland; in addition, Prussia would hand over its share of Poland to Russian. Metternich, however, feared that Russia would become too powerful in this deal. To combat the Russian-Prussian alliance, on January 3, 1815, Metternich, Castlereagh, and Talleyrand signed a secret treaty agreeing to oppose the Prussians and Russians. In the end, the Congress of Vienna created a small Poland ("Congress Poland") with Alexander installed as the king. With Russia satisfied, Prussia lost its ally and only was able to get a minor piece of Saxony.

Or are you seriously going to tell me that the Russo-Prussian armies wouldn't be able to beat the armies of Austria-Hungary, Rapp's "mighty" French forces and the British Army?

Tsar Alexander made nice with Napoleon for a couple years so he could pursue his own territorial ambition. Then he made plans to turn on Napoleon. Only problem was that Napoleon saw it coming and turned on him first. The sequence of events 1808-1812 is actually pretty similar to the Hitler-Stalin routine 1939-1941 when you think about it that way.

See, this is why I cannot discuss history with you with a straight face. Posts like that. Csar Alexander turning on Napoleon... riiight. That's exactly why half of the Russian Army was fighting the Ottomans, to make the turn more efficient

You act as though it's Ukrainians' fault that the Russians have acted like enormous assholes. Putin is the one sitting around violating the territorial integrity of a neighboring sovereign nation, holding trade hostage to a political strong-man routine, and acting in bad faith, e.g., the earlier Russian ban on Poroshenko's chocolate when it looked like Yanukovich was going to sign with the EU.

So Putin seizing Crimea in 2014 is the reason for Ukraine's governments neglecting their economy between 1991 and 2013! I was blind, but now I see the...

Sorry, I can't take this anymore. It's just too much bullshit for me. Just stop. Speaking of acting in bad faith, it seems that the only country that happens to have trouble moving Russian gas from point A to point B without stealing it, happens to be Ukraine. And it usually occurs after an Orange Revolution. Hmm, I wonder, why's Putin building so many pipelines around Ukraine? Oh yeah, it's just to be mean to Poproshenko, that must be it! /sarcasm

Oh yeah, Tahar Joblis, you still failed to tell me which specific policies of the Poproshenko administration are going to promote social rights for Ukrainians. I guess bashing Russia is so much easier than actually running a government or analyzing how poorly it's run, eh?

Don't worry, when Crimea blossoms and the rest of Ukraine gets Poproshenko's economic reforms, maybe then Ukrainian people will understand that petty nationalism just fucks them up the... proverbial backside.

[Viritica]

So it's looking more and more like the Ukrainian rebels shot the plane down with weapons provided to them by the Russians.

Stay classy, Putin.

[Costa Fierro]

Many other airlines used the exact same route. It's not as if Malaysia Airlines was alone. They followed all of the safety restrictions, such as staying above a restricted altitude, it could have happened to any of the many airlines flying that same route.

Indeed. It could easily have been Singapore Airlines SQ351 instead.


http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/south-east-asia/story/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-singapore-airlines-plane-sq351-was-abou

Is that an Aeroflot flight heading in the opposite direction?

[Oaledonia]

Indeed. It could easily have been Singapore Airlines SQ351 instead.


http://www.straitstimes.com/news/asia/south-east-asia/story/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-singapore-airlines-plane-sq351-was-abou

Is that an Aeroflot flight heading in the opposite direction?

Air India AI113.

[Costa Fierro]

That's right. I forgot Aeroflot was SU. Hurr.

Still, that's two major carriers in the vicinity of where MH17 was downed.

[Lyttenburg]

Can you decide already? Is it "Russian" or the "Soviet" habit of "lying outright". 'cause in 1983 both Russia and the Ukraine were just parts of the USSR.

Oh spare me the semantics. The comparison is perfectly legitimate, since Putin has idolized Yuri Andropov (director of the KGB in 1983, fwiw) and has made no bones about it.

No, it's actually very important. Because the West prefered to use "Russian" and "Soviet" interchangably - for propaganda efforts. So, after the collapse of the Soviet Union this propaganda claimed that all "bad stuff" in the USSR was done by these beasts, "Rushins", while all other nations were innocent bystanders and victims. Which is complete bullshit still widely beleived by the West.

When the Ukraine shot down Russian civilian plane in 2001 did they follow "the Soviet tradition" of shooting down airplanes? Or just becausr they were Ukrainians this automatically clears their past and absolves of any sins, while such Western "accepted target" (hey, plame politicall correctness - it doesn't allow to hate the usual stuff!) as Russians area always to blame and must be "history-shamed"?

[United Marxist Nations]

Dutch forensic teams onsite have reported that rebels have been cooperative and have directed the train carrying the bodies to depart for Kharkiv, after which they will be returned to the Netherlands for identification.

The Dutch experts have further stated they are "impressed" by the work of the local response teams in handling and storing the bodies. Peter van Vliet, the leader of the expert team, is quoted as saying "I think they did a hell of a job in a hell of a place".

Additionally, a Malaysian delegation in Donetsk reports that the rebels have agreed to turn over the flight recorders to the Malaysian government.

Finally some good news!

The UN Security Council has unanimously approved a comprehensive probe of the MH17 crash. 15-0 vote.

Even more proof that Russians are behind it according to John Kerry!

>Calls for UNSC Peacekeepers in Donbass
>No one responds to call for Peacekeepers
>UMN is sad

I did!

I TG'd you about it though, it's just not the same.

[Kamchastkia]

So it's looking more and more like the Ukrainian rebels shot the plane down with weapons provided to them by the Russians.

Stay classy, Putin.

>Evidence weapons were provided by Russia
>Evidence the rebels know how to operate the complex systems require to down a flight at that altitude.

[Wasyt]

So it's looking more and more like the Ukrainian rebels shot the plane down with weapons provided to them by the Russians.

Stay classy, Putin.

By that logic, if I kill someone with a Canadian made weapon it's Harper's fault ?

EDIT: Exclusive footage of Putin jumping off Mh17 and blowing it up VIDEO FOOTAGE OF PUTIN HIMSELF BLOWING UP MH17

EDIT2: ANOTHER IRREFUTABLE PROOF THAT PUTIN HIMSELF TOOK DOWN MH17

[The Alma Mater]

Ukrainian government claims that the rebels took off the voice recordings of the pilots (saying what was happening during the accident).
Opinions?

Unlikely. What would the pilots have been discussing ?THey probably never even saw the missile coming.

[The Alma Mater]

So it's looking more and more like the Ukrainian rebels shot the plane down with weapons provided to them by the Russians.

Stay classy, Putin.

By that logic, if I kill someone with a Canadian made weapon it's Harper's fault ?

Partly, yes.
That part of course increases if Harper actually gave the weapon to you.
It increases even more if Harper supplied you and quite a few other people with weapons, told/paid you to cause havoc and then looks away when things get out of hand

[Kamchastkia]

By that logic, if I kill someone with a Canadian made weapon it's Harper's fault ?

Partly, yes.
That part of course increases if Harper actually gave the weapon to you.
It increases even more if Harper supplied you and quite a few other people with weapons, told/paid you to cause havoc and then looks away when things get out of hand

There's no evidence to suggest he was supplied by harper though.

[The Alma Mater]

Partly, yes.
That part of course increases if Harper actually gave the weapon to you.
It increases even more if Harper supplied you and quite a few other people with weapons, told/paid you to cause havoc and then looks away when things get out of hand

There's no evidence to suggest he was supplied by harper though.

The question was if Harper was (partly) to blame or not. I merely sketched a scenario in which most people would say "yes".
That the evidence of supplying is circumstancial at best probably does not matter for the opinion of the planet

[ParisCommune]

My thoughts are simply this.

Nobody has claimed responsibility for it. Hence it wasn't an intentional terrorist attack. It was an accident, in the sense that whoever shot it down must have thought it was a military aircraft and didn't know it was a passenger plane.

[Wasyt]

By that logic, if I kill someone with a Canadian made weapon it's Harper's fault ?

Partly, yes.
That part of course increases if Harper actually gave the weapon to you.
It increases even more if Harper supplied you and quite a few other people with weapons, told/paid you to cause havoc and then looks away when things get out of hand

But I never said that Harper gave me the weapon, I just said that the weapon I used to kill an individual was crafted on CANADIAN SOIL.

[Kamchastkia]

There's no evidence to suggest he was supplied by harper though.

The question was if Harper was (partly) to blame or not. I merely sketched a scenario in which most people would say "yes".
That the evidence of supplying is circumstancial at best probably does not matter for the opinion of the planet

What if the state of Vermont wanted to secede from the US and join Canada and did so militantly with weapons that happened to be made in Canada--because Canadian weapons are popular among small insurgent groups. Harper would still be responsible--right?

[Arkinesia]

Oh spare me the semantics. The comparison is perfectly legitimate, since Putin has idolized Yuri Andropov (director of the KGB in 1983, fwiw) and has made no bones about it.

No, it's actually very important. Because the West prefered to use "Russian" and "Soviet" interchangably - for propaganda efforts. So, after the collapse of the Soviet Union this propaganda claimed that all "bad stuff" in the USSR was done by these beasts, "Rushins", while all other nations were innocent bystanders and victims. Which is complete bullshit still widely beleived by the West.

When the Ukraine shot down Russian civilian plane in 2001 did they follow "the Soviet tradition" of shooting down airplanes? Or just becausr they were Ukrainians this automatically clears their past and absolves of any sins, while such Western "accepted target" (hey, plame politicall correctness - it doesn't allow to hate the usual stuff!) as Russians area always to blame and must be "history-shamed"?

There is no “Soviet tradition” of shooting down airplanes.



This is Charlie. Charlie is sick and tired of you attacking him. Please, leave Charlie alone.

(sorry Mavorpen for stealing your joke)

[Oaledonia]

http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3486

As we reported earlier, the Kremlin now says that flight MH17 was "tailed" by a Ukrainian military Su-25 aircraft during much of its flight over Ukraine. As we pointed out, this claim may be physically impossible since Russia says that the Su-25 was consistently between 3 and 5 kilometers away from MH17, but the Su-25 can't fly high enough to have this claim make any sense.

Well, today the Su-25 has been given some significant upgrades -- at least on Wikipedia. Several IP addresses that track back to central Moscow appear to have edited the maximum altitude of the Su-25 from 7 kilometers to 10 kilometers to match the flight path of MH17.

[Kamchastkia]

http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3486

As we reported earlier, the Kremlin now says that flight MH17 was "tailed" by a Ukrainian military Su-25 aircraft during much of its flight over Ukraine. As we pointed out, this claim may be physically impossible since Russia says that the Su-25 was consistently between 3 and 5 kilometers away from MH17, but the Su-25 can't fly high enough to have this claim make any sense.

Well, today the Su-25 has been given some significant upgrades -- at least on Wikipedia. Several IP addresses that track back to central Moscow appear to have edited the maximum altitude of the Su-25 from 7 kilometers to 10 kilometers to match the flight path of MH17.

You don't have to fly at the same altitude as another plane to shoot it down. But then again, random guys on nationstates know everything about the capabilities of military aircraft.

[Oaledonia]

http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3486

You don't have to fly at the same altitude as another plane to shoot it down. But then again, random guys on nationstates know everything about the capabilities of military aircraft.

Hurr durr, very snippy.
Suhkoi officially said that the top flight ceiling of a loaded aircraft is 5km, and a R-60 missile has a range of 8 km, that makes a flight difference of more then 100km in range, assuming the aircraft could even lock onto it with the nose mounted radar. But what do I know? I only have the official statistics from the manufacturer and Russian defense ministry. You RT apologists need to stop grasping at straws and attacking our intelligence.