Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Costa Fierro]

Sky News reporter. See here for the story.

Couldn't he be arrested for something ?

Well, it is considered evidence tampering but given the fact that there really isn't any law enforcement in the area, not to mention that what he was going through doesn't appear to be of any value, I don't think it is serious enough to warrant an arrest. Certainly, a good dressing down from his superiors and perhaps a couple of lessons on proper journalistic conduct are warranted, maybe even a small suspension.

[Kahlenberg]

It's a disgrace indeed, but the top of the iceberg. There are clear images of "rebels" stealing personal items such as wedding rings and basically anything of value.

Source? I haven't found anything but allegations, no direct evidence.

This.

[Shofercia]

So it would appear that the WWE (who are no stranger to referencing current events) are under fire for using the MH17 incident in a story line to generate heat (For those who don't know, the WWE, and all of professional wrestling, employ a tactic called “heat.” Basically it is when a villain, or heel, uses some generic way to get a negative reaction) in some segment of theirs.

Naturally, people's jimmies are quite rustled.

Just when I thought WWE couldn't get any stupider...

[Greater Beggnig]

So it would appear that the WWE (who are no stranger to referencing current events) are under fire for using the MH17 incident in a story line to generate heat (For those who don't know, the WWE, and all of professional wrestling, employ a tactic called “heat.” Basically it is when a villain, or heel, uses some generic way to get a negative reaction) in some segment of theirs.

Naturally, people's jimmies are quite rustled.

Just when I thought WWE couldn't get any stupider...

Hey Shof,
What do you think of Australia's Security Council proposal?

[Shofercia]

Just when I thought WWE couldn't get any stupider...

Hey Shof,
What do you think of Australia's Security Council proposal?

Can I see the text of the actual proposal?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Shit Malaysia get it together

[Organized States]

Shit Malaysia get it together

Not totally their fault this time. Just negligence and stupidity on the side of the Ukrainian rebels.

[Organized States]

Interesting report on the Aviationist that I felt like sharing, supposedly, MH-17 was being escorted or shadowed by 2 Ukrainian Air Force Su-27s before being downed by the rebels. Though it makes sense for them being on a Combat Air Patrol in the area (following the suspected downing of a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25 by a Russian Air Force MiG-29), this might just be another apologist. However, the source this story was acquired from is usually very reliable.

So anyways here's the story,
http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/21/su ... rted-mh17/

This, in my opinion, raises the question, was MH-17 shot down because the rebels assumed it was a High Value Target due to the fighter escort?
Or did MH-17 have prior warning from the rebels, and sent out a distress call, which was answered by the Ukrainian Su-27s, and then was fired upon by the rebels?
This is quite an odd story, and both the comments and the story itself are worth a read.

[Greater Beggnig]

Where can you find text of UN Proposals?

[Organized States]

Where can you find text of UN Proposals?

Should be on their website.

[Viritica]

That's two Malaysian flights down.

Damn, they have terrible luck.

[Imperializt Russia]

It's a disgrace indeed, but the top of the iceberg. There are clear images of "rebels" stealing personal items such as wedding rings and basically anything of value.

The difference between the two is that the journalist (who is Australian as the network he works for is also Australian) knew what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway. You expect this sort of stuff from uncultured people such as the rebels, but not from supposedly professional journalists.

What in God's name makes the rebels any less "cultured" than Ukrainian or Russian army personnel or civilians? Or western army personnel? The USMC Scout Snipers using SS runes as unit flags and insignia, the Abu Graibh torturers, the British marine who told a wounded and pacified Afghan insurgent to "shuffle off his mortal coil" before killing him with a handgun?

[Imperializt Russia]

The Russians were 10 km from Warsaw yet still did not help.

Because they were exhausted, due to recently finishing a major push and needed to resupply, sent the wounded back, bring up fresh reserves, train them, etc.

Gee, it's almost as though army units are filled with people, that get tired and injured.

And plenty if others had been shot down.

There was the expectation that even the trigger happy ex-Russian soldiers that pose as rebels would be able to distinguish a passenger liner on 33,000 feet from a transport plane on half the altitude (Ukrainian transport planes wouldn't have time, nor reason to fly at 33,000 feet). It was an overestimation of their abilities, and I agree to a certain level that it would have been prudent not to take this risk. Especially since it was clear since the downing of the first Ukrainian transport plane that the "separatists" owned high-end anti-air equipment.

How do you think that military and civil aircraft are distinguished from each other?

There's no "I'm a civilian!" IFF tag, because then it could be used illegally by military aircraft - or by people who want to be "left alone".
What a radar operator will see is a spike in the returned radiation. From that, RCS of the target can be assumed. An airliner appears to be greater than twenty square metres in RCS. Military transports will approximate this value.

If they're flying at half the altitude of commercial airliners, the transports and airliners would look more alike, due to size differences.

Except that the kinds of military transports that had been downed in recent days would have had a different radar signature to jet liners, as the AN-26 is a turboprop. And turboprops have different and distinct signatures to other aircraft.

They are different but probably not distinct. In much the same way that the fingerprint region of chemical analysis is different but not distinct, without analysis.
You could make an assessment if it was one or the other, but this is unlikely if the Buk was running off its own FCS for radar acquisition.

Interesting report on the Aviationist that I felt like sharing, supposedly, MH-17 was being escorted or shadowed by 2 Ukrainian Air Force Su-27s before being downed by the rebels. Though it makes sense for them being on a Combat Air Patrol in the area (following the suspected downing of a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25 by a Russian Air Force MiG-29), this might just be another apologist. However, the source this story was acquired from is usually very reliable.

So anyways here's the story,
http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/21/su ... rted-mh17/

This, in my opinion, raises the question, was MH-17 shot down because the rebels assumed it was a High Value Target due to the fighter escort?
Or did MH-17 have prior warning from the rebels, and sent out a distress call, which was answered by the Ukrainian Su-27s, and then was fired upon by the rebels?
This is quite an odd story, and both the comments and the story itself are worth a read.

Being escorted by Ukrainian Flankers, days after An-26s had been previously shot down, would sure as hell make me think I was shooting at a military aircraft.

The more sensible option, rather than drawing attention to the aircraft by the Flanker pilots (or, possibly, using the aircraft as their own human shield while they patrolled) would be to intercept the aircraft and request it not fly over the conflict zone.

[Greater Beggnig]

It's still being drafted, as far as I know, but some extracts of the Australian proposal to the Security Council have been released:

It "demands that those responsible for this incident be held to account and that all states cooperate fully with efforts to establish accountability"

"condemns in the strongest terms the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17"

"demands that all states and other actors in the region refrain from acts of violence directed against civilian aircraft"

"demands that the armed groups in control of the crash site and the surrounding area refrain from any actions that may compromise the integrity of the crash site and immediately provide safe, secure, full and unfettered access to the site and surrounding area"

It doesn't blame Russia or the 'little Russians' but rather calls for whoever was responsible, Russian, Ukrainian or otherwise, to be punished.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

It's still being drafted, as far as I know, but some extracts of the Australian proposal to the Security Council have been released:

It "demands that those responsible for this incident be held to account and that all states cooperate fully with efforts to establish accountability"

"condemns in the strongest terms the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17"

"demands that all states and other actors in the region refrain from acts of violence directed against civilian aircraft"

"demands that the armed groups in control of the crash site and the surrounding area refrain from any actions that may compromise the integrity of the crash site and immediately provide safe, secure, full and unfettered access to the site and surrounding area"

It doesn't blame Russia or the 'little Russians' but rather calls for whoever was responsible, Russian, Ukrainian or otherwise, to be punished.

Does it say anything about the repatriation of victims, or the research on the crash?

[Greater Beggnig]

It's still being drafted, as far as I know, but some extracts of the Australian proposal to the Security Council have been released:

It "demands that those responsible for this incident be held to account and that all states cooperate fully with efforts to establish accountability"

"condemns in the strongest terms the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17"

"demands that all states and other actors in the region refrain from acts of violence directed against civilian aircraft"

"demands that the armed groups in control of the crash site and the surrounding area refrain from any actions that may compromise the integrity of the crash site and immediately provide safe, secure, full and unfettered access to the site and surrounding area"

It doesn't blame Russia or the 'little Russians' but rather calls for whoever was responsible, Russian, Ukrainian or otherwise, to be punished.

Does it say anything about the repatriation of victims, or the research on the crash?

Most likely, after all, Prime Minister Abbott is having a field day over this.

[Kahlenberg]

There's no "I'm a civilian!" IFF tag, because then it could be used illegally by military aircraft - or by people who want to be "left alone".
What a radar operator will see is a spike in the returned radiation. From that, RCS of the target can be assumed. An airliner appears to be greater than twenty square metres in RCS. Military transports will approximate this value.

Most radars have the ability to determine the altitude of the target. When the "target" flies at 33,000 feet it should at least be justified to check one of the many available flight logs of passenger planes, which only takes a few seconds. No Ukrainian military plane would fly this high, because it is too high for a landing procedure as well as for deploying parachutists and at the speed the plane was flying, it would have been quite hard to turn before entering Russian airspace - something no Ukrainian military craft would have dared.

[Imperializt Russia]

There's no "I'm a civilian!" IFF tag, because then it could be used illegally by military aircraft - or by people who want to be "left alone".
What a radar operator will see is a spike in the returned radiation. From that, RCS of the target can be assumed. An airliner appears to be greater than twenty square metres in RCS. Military transports will approximate this value.

Most radars have the ability to determine the altitude of the target. When the "target" flies at 33,000 feet it should at least be justified to check one of the many available flight logs of passenger planes, which only takes a few seconds. No Ukrainian military plane would fly this high, because it is too high for a landing procedure as well as for deploying parachutists and at the speed the plane was flying, it would have been quite hard to turn before entering Russian airspace - something no Ukrainian military craft would have dared.

This is indeed true.

Nothing actively precludes military aviation from flying at this altitude over combat zones - after all, it was being claimed that the aircraft was previously escorted by Su-27 aircraft. This may have been at this altitude or to request it reach that altitude.

[Kahlenberg]

Most radars have the ability to determine the altitude of the target. When the "target" flies at 33,000 feet it should at least be justified to check one of the many available flight logs of passenger planes, which only takes a few seconds. No Ukrainian military plane would fly this high, because it is too high for a landing procedure as well as for deploying parachutists and at the speed the plane was flying, it would have been quite hard to turn before entering Russian airspace - something no Ukrainian military craft would have dared.

This is indeed true.

Nothing actively precludes military aviation from flying at this altitude over combat zones - after all, it was being claimed that the aircraft was previously escorted by Su-27 aircraft. This may have been at this altitude or to request it reach that altitude.

I think we agree there was so much reason to doubt the military nature of the plane that downing it equals criminal negligence in its most serious form.

[Organized States]

Interesting report on the Aviationist that I felt like sharing, supposedly, MH-17 was being escorted or shadowed by 2 Ukrainian Air Force Su-27s before being downed by the rebels. Though it makes sense for them being on a Combat Air Patrol in the area (following the suspected downing of a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25 by a Russian Air Force MiG-29), this might just be another apologist. However, the source this story was acquired from is usually very reliable.

So anyways here's the story,
http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/21/su ... rted-mh17/

This, in my opinion, raises the question, was MH-17 shot down because the rebels assumed it was a High Value Target due to the fighter escort?
Or did MH-17 have prior warning from the rebels, and sent out a distress call, which was answered by the Ukrainian Su-27s, and then was fired upon by the rebels?
This is quite an odd story, and both the comments and the story itself are worth a read.

Being escorted by Ukrainian Flankers, days after An-26s had been previously shot down, would sure as hell make me think I was shooting at a military aircraft.

The more sensible option, rather than drawing attention to the aircraft by the Flanker pilots (or, possibly, using the aircraft as their own human shield while they patrolled) would be to intercept the aircraft and request it not fly over the conflict zone.

Agreed. This opens up a whole new mess of questions about what happened. I'm starting to wonder if the Flankers were in the process of ordering it to divert, or had already diverted the flight, and they ended up moving MH-17 closer towards the suspected SAMs instead of away from it, by accident, or misjudgment over where the SAM battery was.

[Imperializt Russia]

It certainly detracts heavily from "terrorism" and throw plenty of credence to "horrible accident questionably covered up".

[Greater Beggnig]

It certainly detracts heavily from "terrorism" and throw plenty of credence to "horrible accident questionably covered up".

It certainly wasn't terrorism. Plenty of flights flew over Donetsk with no problems.

[Organized States]

It certainly detracts heavily from "terrorism" and throw plenty of credence to "horrible accident questionably covered up".

It does raise some new theories if found to be true.

[72o]

I'm pretty sure the US would know if mh-17 was escorted, the russians would know for sure. It seems unlikely that neither party would have mentioned it, but we'll see.

[Organized States]

I'm pretty sure the US would know if mh-17 was escorted, the russians would know for sure. It seems unlikely that neither party would have mentioned it, but we'll see.

It's a bit harder to track aircraft like the Flanker, especially on CAPs (which can change at random), and it might be something that is not considered important at this time, but if this story begins gaining steam, we might see some comment on it.