Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Neoconstantius]

Not really comparable, I mean, they were 33,000 ft up, so it's not like the separatists would really be able to tell the difference between them and a Ukrainian transport plane. And, considering that the DPM had shot down a string of transport planes, it was simply negligent to fly over the area.

So how come a KLM flight that had passed over hours earlier had no problems? Or Lufthansa? Or Thai? Or Aeroflot?

What point are you trying to make, that there was some coordinated conspiracy among the rebels to bring down that specific MH plane? What would they possibly gain from that?

It's solely coincidental that any other flight wasn't hit.

[Costa Fierro]

Indeed. Blame cannot be laid at the feet of Malaysia simply because that aircraft could have been a Thai one or Lufthansa. It's not a conspiracy, it's simply that the aircraft was in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one banked on the idiocy of the rebels to fire at a passenger jet.

In saying that, I wonder how things would have turned out if it wasn't a Malaysian jet, but an Aeroflot one.

[United Marxist Nations]

Indeed. Blame cannot be laid at the feet of Malaysia simply because that aircraft could have been a Thai one or Lufthansa. It's not a conspiracy, it's simply that the aircraft was in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one banked on the idiocy of the rebels to fire at a passenger jet.

In saying that, I wonder how things would have turned out if it wasn't a Malaysian jet, but an Aeroflot one.

CNN wouldn't be able to mention MH370 every damn time they mention it.

[Costa Fierro]

Indeed. Blame cannot be laid at the feet of Malaysia simply because that aircraft could have been a Thai one or Lufthansa. It's not a conspiracy, it's simply that the aircraft was in the wrong place at the wrong time. No one banked on the idiocy of the rebels to fire at a passenger jet.

In saying that, I wonder how things would have turned out if it wasn't a Malaysian jet, but an Aeroflot one.

CNN wouldn't be able to mention MH370 every damn time they mention it.

And the Russian rhetoric against Ukraine would be much louder than it is now.

[Shofercia]

CNN wouldn't be able to mention MH370 every damn time they mention it.

And the Russian rhetoric against Ukraine would be much louder than it is now.

I doubt you can have anything more devastating against Ukraine by the Russian media than Poroshenko's very own quotes. It's a lesson that Putin learned from the Ossetian War. When your adversaries fuck up, just quote them repeatedly; no need to comment on it.

[Costa Fierro]

And the Russian rhetoric against Ukraine would be much louder than it is now.

I doubt you can have anything more devastating against Ukraine by the Russian media than Poroshenko's very own quotes. It's a lesson that Putin learned from the Ossetian War. When your adversaries fuck up, just quote them repeatedly; no need to comment on it.

The difference between this and the Ossetian War is that it was pretty obvious who fucked up. That's not the case here.

[Ganos Lao]

So it would appear that the WWE (who are no stranger to referencing current events) are under fire for using the MH17 incident in a story line to generate heat (For those who don't know, the WWE, and all of professional wrestling, employ a tactic called “heat.” Basically it is when a villain, or heel, uses some generic way to get a negative reaction) in some segment of theirs.

Naturally, people's jimmies are quite rustled.

[Oaledonia]

Don't forget that the flight was flying above the flight ceiling required for aircraft flying over the terrorist scum "combat zone"

[Arkinesia]

So how come a KLM flight that had passed over hours earlier had no problems? Or Lufthansa? Or Thai? Or Aeroflot?

What point are you trying to make, that there was some coordinated conspiracy among the rebels to bring down that specific MH plane? What would they possibly gain from that?

It's solely coincidental that any other flight wasn't hit.

My point is it wasn't some kind of war zone in the sense that a lot of people are talking about it. People keep talking about how “it was a war zone how could you fly a plane through it yada yada” when the reality is that plenty of aircraft were flying through just fine.

[United Marxist Nations]

What point are you trying to make, that there was some coordinated conspiracy among the rebels to bring down that specific MH plane? What would they possibly gain from that?

It's solely coincidental that any other flight wasn't hit.

My point is it wasn't some kind of war zone in the sense that a lot of people are talking about it. People keep talking about how “it was a war zone how could you fly a plane through it yada yada” when the reality is that plenty of aircraft were flying through just fine.

And plenty if others had been shot down.

[Kahlenberg]

Today is going to be interesting. Will the bodies be returned by the rebels? Will Dutch and international investigators be allowed full access to the site?

Meanwhile John van 't Schip, former deputy head coach of the national team of the Netherlands, called for a boycott of the WC 2018 and he was backed by some English commentators - who even go as far as to suggest to give the WC 2018 bid to the Netherlands. Whether such, and other ideas to "punish" Russia and Putin will gain some momentum will probably be dependent on the cooperation of Russia and its rebel friends in Ukraine in the next days. (Admittedly dodgy) opinion polls show overwhelming support for a WC boycott of the Netherlands.

Also interesting: will Russia veto the Australian U.N. proposal to urge all parties to fully cooperate to an impartial investigation?

[Kahlenberg]

My point is it wasn't some kind of war zone in the sense that a lot of people are talking about it. People keep talking about how “it was a war zone how could you fly a plane through it yada yada” when the reality is that plenty of aircraft were flying through just fine.

And plenty if others had been shot down.

There was the expectation that even the trigger happy ex-Russian soldiers that pose as rebels would be able to distinguish a passenger liner on 33,000 feet from a transport plane on half the altitude (Ukrainian transport planes wouldn't have time, nor reason to fly at 33,000 feet). It was an overestimation of their abilities, and I agree to a certain level that it would have been prudent not to take this risk. Especially since it was clear since the downing of the first Ukrainian transport plane that the "separatists" owned high-end anti-air equipment.

[United Marxist Nations]

And plenty if others had been shot down.

There was the expectation that even the trigger happy ex-Russian soldiers that pose as rebels would be able to distinguish a passenger liner on 33,000 feet from a transport plane on half the altitude (Ukrainian transport planes wouldn't have time, nor reason to fly at 33,000 feet). It was an overestimation of their abilities, and I agree to a certain level that it would have been prudent not to take this risk. Especially since it was clear since the downing of the first Ukrainian transport plane that the "separatists" owned high-end anti-air equipment.

If they're flying at half the altitude of commercial airliners, the transports and airliners would look more alike, due to size differences.

[Kahlenberg]

There was the expectation that even the trigger happy ex-Russian soldiers that pose as rebels would be able to distinguish a passenger liner on 33,000 feet from a transport plane on half the altitude (Ukrainian transport planes wouldn't have time, nor reason to fly at 33,000 feet). It was an overestimation of their abilities, and I agree to a certain level that it would have been prudent not to take this risk. Especially since it was clear since the downing of the first Ukrainian transport plane that the "separatists" owned high-end anti-air equipment.

If they're flying at half the altitude of commercial airliners, the transports and airliners would look more alike, due to size differences.

That completely depends on the type of transport. Regardless, usually equipment like this is linked with a system that displays altitude of the "target".

[Costa Fierro]

There was the expectation that even the trigger happy ex-Russian soldiers that pose as rebels would be able to distinguish a passenger liner on 33,000 feet from a transport plane on half the altitude (Ukrainian transport planes wouldn't have time, nor reason to fly at 33,000 feet). It was an overestimation of their abilities, and I agree to a certain level that it would have been prudent not to take this risk. Especially since it was clear since the downing of the first Ukrainian transport plane that the "separatists" owned high-end anti-air equipment.

If they're flying at half the altitude of commercial airliners, the transports and airliners would look more alike, due to size differences.

Except that the kinds of military transports that had been downed in recent days would have had a different radar signature to jet liners, as the AN-26 is a turboprop. And turboprops have different and distinct signatures to other aircraft.

[Costa Fierro]

Anyone heard about that journalist rummaging through someone's belongings? Pretty fucking disgraceful IMO.

[United Marxist Nations]

Anyone heard about that journalist rummaging through someone's belongings? Pretty fucking disgraceful IMO.

Which one?

[Costa Fierro]

Anyone heard about that journalist rummaging through someone's belongings? Pretty fucking disgraceful IMO.

Which one?

Sky News reporter. See here for the story.

[Neoconstantius]

Anyone heard about that journalist rummaging through someone's belongings? Pretty fucking disgraceful IMO.

Which one?

Probably the Sky News one. Shameful.

[Kahlenberg]

Which one?

Sky News reporter. See here for the story.

It's a disgrace indeed, but the top of the iceberg. There are clear images of "rebels" stealing personal items such as wedding rings and basically anything of value.

[United Marxist Nations]

Which one?

Sky News reporter. See here for the story.

Couldn't he be arrested for something ?

[Neoconstantius]

Sky News reporter. See here for the story.

Couldn't he be arrested for something ?

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of law enforcement in that area right now.

[Costa Fierro]

Sky News reporter. See here for the story.

It's a disgrace indeed, but the top of the iceberg. There are clear images of "rebels" stealing personal items such as wedding rings and basically anything of value.

The difference between the two is that the journalist (who is Australian as the network he works for is also Australian) knew what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway. You expect this sort of stuff from uncultured people such as the rebels, but not from supposedly professional journalists.

[Neoconstantius]

Sky News reporter. See here for the story.

It's a disgrace indeed, but the top of the iceberg. There are clear images of "rebels" stealing personal items such as wedding rings and basically anything of value.

Source? I haven't found anything but allegations, no direct evidence.

[The Conez Imperium]

Today is going to be interesting. Will the bodies be returned by the rebels? Will Dutch and international investigators be allowed full access to the site?

Meanwhile John van 't Schip, former deputy head coach of the national team of the Netherlands, called for a boycott of the WC 2018 and he was backed by some English commentators - who even go as far as to suggest to give the WC 2018 bid to the Netherlands. Whether such, and other ideas to "punish" Russia and Putin will gain some momentum will probably be dependent on the cooperation of Russia and its rebel friends in Ukraine in the next days. (Admittedly dodgy) opinion polls show overwhelming support for a WC boycott of the Netherlands.

Also interesting: will Russia veto the Australian U.N. proposal to urge all parties to fully cooperate to an impartial investigation?

Most likely Russia will veto Australian attempts at the UN. This is like Cold War politics now where everything is vetoed and uncomfortably discussed.