Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Santa Remera]

Malaysia has some top notch air services..

Yeah, you'd think they'd be able to maneuver quickly enough to avoid missiles. I mean come on, what commercial airline can't? (Sarcasm)

[Greed and Death]

Malaysia has some top notch air services..

Yeah, you'd think they'd be able to maneuver quickly enough to avoid missiles. I mean come on, what commercial airline can't? (Sarcasm)

Atleast my investment of buying all the remaining Concords is about to pay off.

Fly Greed air we charge a lot but our planes can evade missiles.

[Kahlenberg]

Yeah, because mind control is the only way to influence people. He could threaten to stop sending weapons, he could threaten to withdraw the passports of Russian nationals involved in hindering the investigations, he can do many other things. He won't, because he doesn't want to make an effort.

But "he" didn't send them weapons - through the numerous reports it's known, that the "People Republic’s" forces have no lack of machineguns, AKs and small arms - acquired, primarily, from the Ukrainian arsenals. Something heavier? And where is a concise proof that it was supplied by Putin (as if he has a personal collection of them on his dacha!)? Next - are there any proof that it was Russian citizens, who mess with the evidence and hinder the investigation? Should I remind you, how Putin "advised" DNR not to held a referendum for independence and how they ignored him anyway? So what you want from him personally?

BTW, have it ever crossed your mind, that Russians, common Russians, can indeed volunteer and arrive in the Eastern Ukraine by their own means - i.e. that they are not "sent" by the sinister Putin's Government. I've been in the Ukraine previously (I still have relative here). I also served together with some guys from the Belgorod oblast that borders the Ukraine. I'm really not sure how some various pro-Ukrainian Western "experts" can make claims of "Russian nationals from Belgorod infiltrating across the border" if even I have hard time to differentiate Belgorodians from the Ukrainian by the way of appearance and accent.

What, you want for Putin to order a total closure of border? Then what about all the Ukrainians (ironically - about 2/3 of them are from the Western part of the country) who work in Russia - it would be tremendous blow for them (for which Poroshenko would blame Russia anyway). What about all those people who have friends and relatives across the border?

There are multiple reports that show Russia provided support to the rebels in many ways. Whether these are true, neither of us can say for sure, but I decide to trust them. I understand you do not, I even respect that given your background and situation.

Before a UNSC sanctioned mission is on the floor, the rebels have destroyed all evidence. That's also the reason why this is an option for you, obviously, since it wouldn't help the tiniest bit to secure a fair and unbiased research.

What happened to this fine Western invention, whassisname, - "the presumption of innocence"? That everyone must be considered innocent until proven without doubt and through the rightlegal procedure to be guilty? Is it reserved only for the members of "higher race" the Westerners?

The Dutch government has not once stated to know who the perpetrators were. Not once. And please get off our high horse with your ubermensch-remarks that attempt to put me in the Nazi-corner. I am refraining from such tactics in this exchange of opinions and I would highly appreciate it if you would try to meet that standard.

I enjoyed your reasoned posting so far, but you seem to be losing yourself here. I have explicitly stated I don't blame all Russians, so the last thing I would want to do is to kill more innocent people. I have never claimed Dutch blood is worth more then the blood of people with other nationalities. What the Russians did in response to all the stuff you mentioned, is sending (questionable) people and arms to questionable rebel groups. Should we do that as well? Would that be fair game? To arm some warbands in East Ukraine, call them "Ukrainian Freedom Fighters", arm them to the teeth and let them retake the crash zone? Your statement sounds as if Russia did not intervene - which is of course a joke. To use your words: is Russian blood suddenly more precious and "pure" that you have the right to intervene when it is spilled and we don't?

And did Russia even suggested to send exclusively Russian/STO troops for "peacekeeping" and "site control" after all the incidents I've already mentioned? No, it's the buzzword of the West - "Show NATO's solidarity!" (with whom? Non NATO member?), "Send Dutch military to control the site" (presently held by the DNR militia - ate you suicidal?). If you want to, and I quote, "To arm some warbands in East Ukraine, call them "Ukrainian Freedom Fighters", arm them to the teeth and let them retake the crash zone" = dou you really think that

a) This "warband" would use their newly acquired wepons (as if people here lack weapons - they lack decent food, clothes and equipment, but not the weapons) in the way you've told them and not on the civilians?

b) That if said "warband" is captured/killed and it becomes know, that they were armed by the NATO member - don't you think Kremlin would milk this delicious piece of information dry?

When was you and all suddenly angry Netherlands, when Slavyansk was shelled during the "Poroshenko's ceasefire"? Only after this conflict bit you in the ass, you all became suddenly aware and indignant, crying for revenge of "innocent blood".

Oh don't be a bloody hypocrite. Why are you concerned about the situation in Ukraine? Because "Russians" died. I doubt you are very worried about the situation in Mali or Colombia. There is too much going on in the world for a small country like the Netherlands to speak out about on a regular basis. Ukraine is just one of many tragic conflicts to us, in which both sides did stuff they shouldnt have done. I never denied that. I also made clear that arming a warband is a stupid idea I oppose, I was just making a comparison with the Russian tactics employed so far.

Also the Dutch government, nor any other NATO-country has proposed anything of the kind you suggest, so I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not a member of the Dutch central government, if you believed so..

Mind me: I would be fiercely against arming rebels or basically either side of the conflict, since I think the senseless conflict in Ukraine already cost to many lives and diplomacy, not more fighting, should be the way out now. In the quite hypothetical case of an international intervention, I would prefer: 1) the U.S. not to play a role, since it would only raise the tension even higher, 2) the intervention should be strictly limited to securing the crash site and investigation and should not turn into a military missions against the "sepetatists" and 3) violence should only be used in retaliation.

It's all well and sound, but... This sort of action presumes a cooperation between the current Kievan government, Anti-Kiev rebels AND all members of the international "intervention/investigation squad". Would the DNR military allow pro-Kiev National guard or regulars into their territory? No - they don't trust them. Will the official Kiev even speak with those, whom it labels "terrorists" in it's official propaganda? Again - no. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Holland (as all of the EU countries) doesn't recognize DNR officially as one of the sides in the conflict - for you they are just "rebels" and "separatists".

It should be made clear that it is a peace keeping force and that any attempt to attack it will be met with all necessary force. The Dutch should send the troops to meet threats like that if they would employ, witch I find highly unlikely.

Hate tends to be harmful for business. I really believe Russia has more to loose in this conflict then the Netherlands. A significantly more tactful approach from the side of Russia is one of the only thing that could calm the Dutch public opinion. At least act as if you care. The Russian embassy was one of the few not flying its flag half mast last friday. Putin didn't call our prime minister for condolences, it was our prime minister who initiated contact.

Major Russian companies have their Headquarters in Amsterdam for tax reasons, the Dutch are a top-10 trading partner of the Russians. Even though you are obviously right - friendship between nations are only staged for the public since states tend to be rational institutions - PR is not unimportant and Russia is doing a horrible job which can cost them more then they bargained for. Especially since the Netherlands has always supported a mild stance versus Russia within the EU and will probably not do so anymore in future.

Britain hates Putin's (and to slightly lesser extent - Russia's) guts for a long, long time. But, because as the old proverb goes, "Pecunia non olet", they are quite happy to have our oligarchs and bearcats in "Londongrad" and would do anything in their power, to prevent any sanctions, that would hamper their spending money in Britain.

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but the same can be said about the Netherlands.

Untill now, there was little anti-Russia sentiment in Holland that I knew of. Putin was even regarded a powerful leader by many, an example. You might be right that the ancient Dutch liking for profit wins from our morals in the long run, but I think you underestimate the anger in the public opinion. Right now, there is definately more hate in the Netherlands then in Great Britain, if I may guess. I am not exactly a hardliner in this.

[United Marxist Nations]

So, surely now we can agree that a UN Peacekeeping mission is needed; the conflict has thus far killed 1000 people, 550 of them civilians, it's spilling into the border with Russia (numerous shellings of Russian areas have occurred, the most recent receiving a retaliatory shelling); not to mention that, with the size of the DonBass People's Militia, it is likely that a level of violence similar to 'The Troubles" will follow for some time after the Ukraine defeats the insurgency.

[Lemanrussland]

So, surely now we can agree that a UN Peacekeeping mission is needed; the conflict has thus far killed 1000 people, 550 of them civilians, it's spilling into the border with Russia (numerous shellings of Russian areas have occurred, the most recent receiving a retaliatory shelling); not to mention that, with the size of the DonBass People's Militia, it is likely that a level of violence similar to 'The Troubles" will follow for some time after the Ukraine defeats the insurgency.

Ukraine actually asked for some help in this regard back in April. It would be a good measure. I would certainly prefer it to any Russian "peacekeeping" operation in the area.

[United Marxist Nations]

So, surely now we can agree that a UN Peacekeeping mission is needed; the conflict has thus far killed 1000 people, 550 of them civilians, it's spilling into the border with Russia (numerous shellings of Russian areas have occurred, the most recent receiving a retaliatory shelling); not to mention that, with the size of the DonBass People's Militia, it is likely that a level of violence similar to 'The Troubles" will follow for some time after the Ukraine defeats the insurgency.

Ukraine actually asked for some help in this regard back in April. It would be a good measure. I would certainly prefer it to any Russian "peacekeeping" operation in the area.

I think there would need to be a wholly international effort (it would, of course, likely need both Russians and Ukrainians for translators); when it is in-place, with neither side on the brink of destruction, it would be much easier to sit both sides down to discuss demands and terms (like, say, regional autonomy for the DonBass; maybe a clause allowing their secession in Ukraine joins the EU or NATO)

[Beta Test]

Anything interesting happen while I was sleeping?

[Neoconstantius]

Ukraine actually asked for some help in this regard back in April. It would be a good measure. I would certainly prefer it to any Russian "peacekeeping" operation in the area.

I think there would need to be a wholly international effort (it would, of course, likely need both Russians and Ukrainians for translators); when it is in-place, with neither side on the brink of destruction, it would be much easier to sit both sides down to discuss demands and terms (like, say, regional autonomy for the DonBass; maybe a clause allowing their secession in Ukraine joins the EU or NATO)

Public opinion is quite strongly against the rebels at this point, secession or autonomy for the region will never be accepted internationally.

[United Marxist Nations]

I think there would need to be a wholly international effort (it would, of course, likely need both Russians and Ukrainians for translators); when it is in-place, with neither side on the brink of destruction, it would be much easier to sit both sides down to discuss demands and terms (like, say, regional autonomy for the DonBass; maybe a clause allowing their secession in Ukraine joins the EU or NATO)

Public opinion is quite strongly against the rebels at this point, secession or autonomy for the region will never be accepted internationally.

Why should they care? It needs to happen, or violence will just continue. Just putting down the rebels won't solve the problem, just make it less open.

[Neoconstantius]

Anything interesting happen while I was sleeping?

Recovered bodies have been placed in 5 refrigerated train cars standing near the city of Torez, rebels say the remains will stay there until relegated to the custody of the ICAO/OSCE.

Rebels also say they have the black boxes/flight recorders in Donetsk and will turn them over to ICAO officials once they arrive.

So supposedly, they're being [somewhat] cooperative. But they don't trust the Ukrainians.

[Calimera II]

Anything interesting happen while I was sleeping?

Recovered bodies have been placed in 5 refrigerated train cars standing near the city of Torez, rebels say the remains will stay there until relegated to the custody of the ICAO/OSCE.

Rebels also say they have the black boxes/flight recorders in Donetsk and will turn them over to ICAO officials once they arrive.

So supposedly, they're being [somewhat] cooperative.

I am sure things will turn out very differently..

[Neoconstantius]

Recovered bodies have been placed in 5 refrigerated train cars standing near the city of Torez, rebels say the remains will stay there until relegated to the custody of the ICAO/OSCE.

Rebels also say they have the black boxes/flight recorders in Donetsk and will turn them over to ICAO officials once they arrive.

So supposedly, they're being [somewhat] cooperative.

I am sure things will turn out very differently..

Well we'll see, won't we.

[Oaledonia]

Picture from the crash site, it enrages me to no end.

[Shofercia]

Stalin was removing population, an act that I condemned. As for Russians reproducing quicker than locals or legally immigrating, again, that's not Lebensraum.

Yes, Stalin was removing populations.

At its heart, the declaration that Germans needed lebensraum was a flimsy justification for military conquest. The only real difference between Nazi efforts at Germanisation of conquered territory and Russification in the USSR was that the former was explicitly racial as well as cultural.

That's not the only difference, nor will I indulge you desire to go off topic on that front. Again, I condemned Stalin's removal of population. Apparently that's not enough for you, so you repeat that ad nauseum. Population removal bad. Very bad. Anyways, what I am saying, is that it's foolish to equate Crimea with Lebensraum, since the locals aren't being removed from Crimea.

So is Kiev conducting Lebensraum of Eastern Ukraine?

Lebensraum isn't a verb or activity or process. It's a noun. You get more living-space ("mehr Lebensraum") by conquering it.

The word that would be used in your sentence properly is "Russification." Or in that particular case "Ukrainization." Etc.

When you expand your borders, you are acquiring more territory that you control. You can use control of this territory to provide more space for your people to live in. Hence my referring to conquered territory as mehr Lebensraum.

I see, so if China conquers those uninhabited islands, they're engaging in Lebensraum according to Tahar Joblis. And if Russia later colonizes the Moon or Mars, that too, would be Lebensraum. On oh, look, look, Russia's Lebensraum is even UN approved!

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=287546

Granted it's not land yet, but what if Russia builds an artificial island there? Does that become Lebensraum? Again, the reason that Lebensraum is condemned, as opposed to mere conquests, is because Lebensraum involves a race/ethnicity based removal of the locals. That's not happening in Crimea and calling it Lebensraum is ludicrous.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/110-000-have-fled-to-russia-from-ukraine-united-nations-says-1403873653

110,000 is certainly more than hundreds. Oh wait, it's Kiev, so you'll instantly jump to Kiev's defense.

And how many have fled to elsewhere in Ukraine from the eastern territories where fighting is?

This is what war does: It pushes people to move. When Russian

Yep, there comes the defense. Couldn't possibly be because Kiev's forces are depriving the locals of vital utilities...

Good thing this isn't one that I was referring to.

No, you were referring to ancient history.

I wasn't aware that the Russian Civil War, (1917-1922,) was ancient history. Tell me, do you believe everything they say in Poroshenko's office or on the History Channel?

I was talking about major wars. MAJOR wars.

I italicized some of them for a reason. The italicized ones were ones that, for the invaded party, could be considered minor. The Chinese didn't really care much about Manchuria; not when the very existence of China as an independent state was under attack. They also largely looked the other way when the Russians stepped in for Xinjiang.

Sweden lost a third of its territory in the Russian invasion, for example. That's where the modern day border between Finland and Sweden comes from.

The Russian invasions of the Ottoman Empire involved hundreds of thousands of troops taking to the field. In the Crimean War, which you cited as a major war, the Ottoman loss of territory was more significant than any consequences the Russians suffered.

In the Russian-Turkish War of 1877-1878, over 300,000 soldiers died - about two thirds as many as in the Crimean War. This was not a minor conflict, and it led to the formation of a number of the Balkan states, including your favorite one, the Kingdom of Serbia.

So again, out of the Europeans Wars, you named two. Both of which lasted less than two years.

Big ones. In the last two centuries.

And when you're looking at big ones in the last two centuries, you don't really get to support the argument you laid out.

You started by bringing up the Napoleonic Wars. During the Napoleonic Wars, yes, France invaded Russia (along with everybody else), but Russia also invaded Persia, Sweden, and the Ottoman Empire. Greedily wearing out your war machine on conquest of things-that-are-not-France was not only aggressive, but probably a bad idea if you're primarily concerned with making sure Napoleon doesn't smash you.

You brought up the Crimean War. In that war, Russia invaded first. Russia wasn't invaded in the Crimean War until after Russia invaded the Ottoman Empire.

The Russian-Turkish War of 1877-1878 was, as I mentioned, not particularly small compared to the Crimean War. Here Russia did lots of invading and didn't get invaded at all in response.

Then there's WWI, where Russia initiated offensive action against all three of the countries it ended up at war with.

Then you brought up the Russian Civil War, where Russian troops did a lot of invading places that didn't want to be Russian. This includes Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Mongolia. Mind you, Mongolia wasn't even part of the Russian Empire at the time

Then you brought up WWII, where the USSR started things off by invading five of its six nearest European neighbors (Romania being the exception). Yes, the Nazis invaded Russia later in WWII. Funny what happens after the buffer states disappear, huh?

Even in the span of your four examples, Russians invaded first in three of those cases, and the fourth one involved Napolean, who invaded basically everything else anyway.

Mind, you skipped entirely the major story of European border changes in the 1800-1918 period ... the destruction of the Ottoman Empire under the constant aggression of the Russians, occasional aggression of other powers, and civil unrest.

If WWI and WWII demonstrate anything about Russian territorial security, it's that Russia invading its neighbors has a very real tendency to backfire on Russia.

Tell, would you support Russia returning all of its land that it gained during those wars? I'm just asking:



Hmm, I wonder, what else can I do with that post of yours:

Then you brought up the Russian Ukrainian Civil War, where Russian Ukrainian troops did a lot of invading places that didn't want to be Russian Ukrainian. How about we hold a true and democratic vote, Tahar Joblis, on whether the DonBass Republic, Crimea, Novorossiya, Carpathia, etc, wants to be with the soon-to-be economically devastated Kiev Government, how about that? After all, you just blamed Russia for it. Oh wait, I forgot, with you it's "Russia-bad" and "Ukraine-good". I specifically brought up Napoleon's Invasion of Russia, which, even Napoleon had the balls to admit was mistake.

I brought up WWI in the context of Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War, after Russia withdrew from WWI, and was promptly invaded by the Allies during the Russian Civil War. Speaking of being greedy, if Russia was actually greedy during the Napoleonic Wars, Russia would've sided with Prussia kicked the Anglo-Austrian-French butts and captured all of Poland, not just Congress Poland, kicked Czartoriski out of the government and denied Poland any autonomy whatsoever, at the get-go. As for the Ottoman Empire being destroyed, that was done during WWI, partially by the Allies, and not every Russo-Ottoman War resulted from Russian aggression, but that's just for those of us who actually know history. And that's beside the point. The point is that your post is so very typical of the Ukrainian Nationalist posts that I've seen. Extremely typical. Lots of argumentative Russia bashing, lots of it. Tons. More than enough to go off topic.

But when I asked "what's Poroshenko doing to improve the lives of Ukrainians?" that's the only query that you "heroically" ignored. But thing is, Tahar Joblis, down the line, the people of Ukraine are going to ask their government: "why's bread so expensive? Why was our pension decreased? Why are the bankers making money, while the people are near starvation? Where can our kids work?" And if your plan is to respond with "hurr durr Russia sucks, it's all their fault!" then let me tell you, Ukraine's headed for a very ugly revolution. Poroshenko is an idiot. When your economy is fucked, you don't piss off your biggest trading partner, and yet, Poroshenko seems to be taking all of the necessary steps to accomplish that tasks. I already have a banner for him:

[Shofercia]

Anyways, from my TGing dialogue with UMN, it's mostly his TG:

we need to quit getting wrapped up in semantics and "concrete" state borders that aren't really founded in reality, and recognize that it's a humanitarian emergency going on. The UN[SC] needs to first send peacekeepers to end the fighting and restore utilties, then, it needs to have negotiations with both sides, and try to find a solution so that violence doesn't erupt again. If Kiev just puts the DonBass Republic down, then there probably will be something close to the Troubles for the next several years.

[It would also end the civil war and prevent a potential Cold War 2.0. Just saying.]

Exactly. That is precisely what I want too, but will Putin agree? How about DonBass?
On another note, could it lead to another Pristina incident?

It won't, if the peacekeepers are truly integrated, i.e. in one battalion you have peacekeepers from many countries, including Russia. Putin will agree, and the DonBass Republic will agree if they get utilities restored, Red Cross aid, those kinds of things.

Exactly. That is precisely what I want too, but will Putin agree? How about DonBass?
On another note, could it lead to another Pristina incident?

Putin won't let that happen. If the Ukrainian Army continues much further on their campaign, the Russians are going to intervene, again.

Ukraine's Army is losing at the moment, and Putin didn't intervene after Slavyansk.

The Russians were 10 km from Warsaw yet still did not help.

Because they were exhausted, due to recently finishing a major push and needed to resupply, sent the wounded back, bring up fresh reserves, train them, etc.

[Arkinesia]

2.Sanctions can be equal to murder, don't forget that. Anyhow, saying that they shouldn't be shown any mercy implies to kill them, you know that just aswell as i do.

I feel like I need to come back to this.

Maybe in your mind, sanctions are equivalent to murder. You know what's actual murder?

Shooting down a passenger aircraft filled with civilians. That is actual fucking murder, not any of this bullshit “equivalent to.”

[United Marxist Nations]

2.Sanctions can be equal to murder, don't forget that. Anyhow, saying that they shouldn't be shown any mercy implies to kill them, you know that just aswell as i do.

I feel like I need to come back to this.

Maybe in your mind, sanctions are equivalent to murder. You know what's actual murder?

Shooting down a passenger aircraft filled with civilians. That is actual fucking murder, not any of this bullshit “equivalent to.”

In this case, it's more negligent manslaughter.

[Arkinesia]

I feel like I need to come back to this.

Maybe in your mind, sanctions are equivalent to murder. You know what's actual murder?

Shooting down a passenger aircraft filled with civilians. That is actual fucking murder, not any of this bullshit “equivalent to.”

In this case, it's more negligent manslaughter.

If a man walks down a street, randomly firing an assault rifle, and he kills someone, is that murder, or manslaughter?

[Shofercia]

In this case, it's more negligent manslaughter.

If a man walks down a street, randomly firing an assault rifle, and he kills someone, is that murder, or manslaughter?

Depends on the situation and also if the man was being shot at, at the time.

[Arkinesia]

If a man walks down a street, randomly firing an assault rifle, and he kills someone, is that murder, or manslaughter?

Depends on the situation and also if the man was being shot at, at the time.

It's just a regular market street.

It's worth noting that the “designated war zone” was to the north of where the aircraft was shot down.

[Cyyro]

Picture from the crash site, it enrages me to no end.

Damn you..now I feel emotionally unstable.

[United Marxist Nations]

In this case, it's more negligent manslaughter.

If a man walks down a street, randomly firing an assault rifle, and he kills someone, is that murder, or manslaughter?

Not really comparable, I mean, they were 33,000 ft up, so it's not like the separatists would really be able to tell the difference between them and a Ukrainian transport plane. And, considering that the DPM had shot down a string of transport planes, it was simply negligent to fly over the area.

[Shofercia]

Depends on the situation and also if the man was being shot at, at the time.

It's just a regular market street.

It's worth noting that the “designated war zone” was to the north of where the aircraft was shot down.

Maybe it was not in the designated war zone, but it was shot down in the actual war zone.

[Arkinesia]

If a man walks down a street, randomly firing an assault rifle, and he kills someone, is that murder, or manslaughter?

Not really comparable, I mean, they were 33,000 ft up, so it's not like the separatists would really be able to tell the difference between them and a Ukrainian transport plane. And, considering that the DPM had shot down a string of transport planes, it was simply negligent to fly over the area.

So how come a KLM flight that had passed over hours earlier had no problems? Or Lufthansa? Or Thai? Or Aeroflot?

[United Marxist Nations]

Not really comparable, I mean, they were 33,000 ft up, so it's not like the separatists would really be able to tell the difference between them and a Ukrainian transport plane. And, considering that the DPM had shot down a string of transport planes, it was simply negligent to fly over the area.

So how come a KLM flight that had passed over hours earlier had no problems? Or Lufthansa? Or Thai? Or Aeroflot?

Pure luck.