Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Calimera II]

173 Dutch on that flight.

[Limborg]

Shame that it happend, but that's what you can expect if you fly over a warzone. I would hold those resposible that made this flight plan, even though they state it was "safe" they knew it wasn't. Besides them i blame Ukraine aswell for chosing war over peace. Only after that i will concern myself with the ones who fired the missile.

I blame the missile crew above anyone, for negligence of equipment and not being able to clear identify the plane. As with any international flight, the nations in which the flight will be flying is notified before hand of what path they are taking.

So bullshit.

Are then? Did they informed the Donetsk Republic aswell? I don't think so. What you're saying is pretty much impossible. Its a warzone, not a peacefull nation. You're clearly the one with the bullshit here.

[Kahlenberg]

Shame that it happend, but that's what you can expect if you fly over a warzone. I would hold those resposible that made this flight plan, even though they state it was "safe" they knew it wasn't. Besides them i blame Ukraine aswell for chosing war over peace. Only after that i will concern myself with the ones who fired the missile.

The airplane was flying at 10km, which is usually considered a safe distance. You can't blame the people who made the flight plan - if you blame anyone, blame the people who made the safety regulations (even though I think 10km is reasonable, since usually weapons that reach so far aren't manned by complete idiots).

And Ukraine; what did you expect them to do? Allow all of Eastern-Ukraine to leave - even against the wishes of a significant part of the population there? Should countries always listen to an armed minority?

[Beta Test]

173 Dutch on that flight.

I can't even begin to fathom how that country is feeling this right now.

[Limborg]

Shame that it happend, but that's what you can expect if you fly over a warzone. I would hold those resposible that made this flight plan, even though they state it was "safe" they knew it wasn't. Besides them i blame Ukraine aswell for chosing war over peace. Only after that i will concern myself with the ones who fired the missile.

No, no, no, that's not how it works. The people firing missiles at civilian aircraft are those responsible. They shot the weapon. Neither the Ukrainians nor the KLM or MA could have known it would have led to this.

Yes they could. Its a warzone for a reason. Planes have been shot down before.
Besides ofcourse the blame also lies with the ones firing the missile, but in the end i keep the Air people (whoever makes those flight plans) and the Ukrainian government resposable. They are the ones that desided to fly over a warzone/desided to go on a warpath instead of dialog.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

173 Dutch on that flight.

I can't even begin to fathom how that country is feeling this right now.

Grief, sadness, slowly turning into anger unknown to our country. This usually does not happen to us.

[Imperializt Russia]

I blame the missile crew above anyone, for negligence of equipment and not being able to clear identify the plane. As with any international flight, the nations in which the flight will be flying is notified before hand of what path they are taking.

So bullshit.

Are then? Did they informed the Donetsk Republic aswell? I don't think so. What you're saying is pretty much impossible. Its a warzone, not a peacefull nation. You're clearly the one with the bullshit here.

Do what how what? The Donetsk People's Republic is not a recognised state and has no recognised airspace. The Ukrainian military (or whoever) had declared a restriction on civil aviation flying below ~6500m, about the altitude at which an An-26 had previously been shot down.
Aircraft regularly fly over warzones because typically, SAM batteries aren't lighting them up.

[Calimera II]

173 Dutch on that flight.

I can't even begin to fathom how that country is feeling this right now.

I can tell you that people are really angered here now.

[Calimera II]

I cannot recall the Anti-Russian sentiments were ever as high as now in The Netherlands.

[Limborg]

Shame that it happend, but that's what you can expect if you fly over a warzone. I would hold those resposible that made this flight plan, even though they state it was "safe" they knew it wasn't. Besides them i blame Ukraine aswell for chosing war over peace. Only after that i will concern myself with the ones who fired the missile.

The airplane was flying at 10km, which is usually considered a safe distance. You can't blame the people who made the flight plan - if you blame anyone, blame the people who made the safety regulations (even though I think 10km is reasonable, since usually weapons that reach so far aren't manned by complete idiots).

And Ukraine; what did you expect them to do? Allow all of Eastern-Ukraine to leave - even against the wishes of a significant part of the population there? Should countries always listen to an armed minority?

Idiots are present in every army, and they tend to operate such stuff. Planes had been shot down before in that region, so ofcourse the blame lies on those that made the flight plan, or at least for a big part.

Ukraine had plenty of time to enter into dialog with the East, instead of that they went to the east and arrested them for protesting. After that the fight began. Even then Ukraine had time to call for a dialog, but still they rather wanted to kill their own citzens then to create a peacefull and stable nation. There was no reason for letting the East leave, a federalization was all they asked, wich is completely understandable since those area's hold large Russian populations.

[Beta Test]

I can't even begin to fathom how that country is feeling this right now.

Grief, sadness, slowly turning into anger unknown to our country. This usually does not happen to us.

I can't even begin to fathom how that country is feeling this right now.

I can tell you that people are really angered here now.

It's just awful. People in Australia are angry over 28 deaths. It's so hard to imagine the grief caused by 173 deaths.

[Arkinesia]

I blame the missile crew above anyone, for negligence of equipment and not being able to clear identify the plane. As with any international flight, the nations in which the flight will be flying is notified before hand of what path they are taking.

So bullshit.

Are then? Did they informed the Donetsk Republic aswell? I don't think so. What you're saying is pretty much impossible. Its a warzone, not a peacefull nation. You're clearly the one with the bullshit here.

Fuck the “Donetsk People's Republic.” You don't get to be treated like a real nation when you have no actual recognized holdings and basically exist to try to prove that special snowflakes can have pretend countries too. They are a bunch of idealistic assclowns, not a functioning government.

[Kahlenberg]

I can't even begin to fathom how that country is feeling this right now.

I can tell you that people are really angered here now.

I'd say shock and sadness. Especially when compared to international standards, we're not quickly angered. The Russians would have been out on the streets burning Dutch flags by now and threatening our embassy (like they did after the arrest of a Russian diplomat who abused his children in the Netherlands) if a group of separatists from Ameland would have brought down a Russian carrier. Maybe that's an idea for the next Russian bomber that shows up unannounced in our airspace, by the way. We could always arm those crazy Frisians and call them "separatists".

[Calimera II]

I can tell you that people are really angered here now.

I'd say shock and sadness. Especially when compared to international standards, we're not quickly angered. The Russians would have been out on the streets burning Dutch flags by now and threatening our embassy (like they did after the arrest of a Russian diplomat who abused his children in the Netherlands) if a group of separatists from Ameland would have brought down a Russian carrier. Maybe that's an idea for the next Russian bomber that shows up unannounced in our airspace, by the way. We could always arm those crazy Frisians and call them "separatists".

Well, of course we are sad. But that sadness quickly is changing into anger, because people wamt amswers and things to change. This is the biggest terrorist attack ever committed on Dutch citizens.

[Oaledonia]

Are then? Did they informed the Donetsk Republic aswell? I don't think so. What you're saying is pretty much impossible. Its a warzone, not a peacefull nation. You're clearly the one with the bullshit here.

Yes, they did.
The Russians found out when the plane didn't enter their airspace when they should have. The plane, which would have been acting according to international law, would have contacted the legitimate government of the land, there is no "Dontesk Republic", only a Donetsk region of Ukraine.

[Kahlenberg]

The airplane was flying at 10km, which is usually considered a safe distance. You can't blame the people who made the flight plan - if you blame anyone, blame the people who made the safety regulations (even though I think 10km is reasonable, since usually weapons that reach so far aren't manned by complete idiots).

And Ukraine; what did you expect them to do? Allow all of Eastern-Ukraine to leave - even against the wishes of a significant part of the population there? Should countries always listen to an armed minority?

Idiots are present in every army, and they tend to operate such stuff. Planes had been shot down before in that region, so ofcourse the blame lies on those that made the flight plan, or at least for a big part.

Ukraine had plenty of time to enter into dialog with the East, instead of that they went to the east and arrested them for protesting. After that the fight began. Even then Ukraine had time to call for a dialog, but still they rather wanted to kill their own citzens then to create a peacefull and stable nation. There was no reason for letting the East leave, a federalization was all they asked, wich is completely understandable since those area's hold large Russian populations.

You clearly did not follow the news. A federalization has been proposed on multiple occasions. On the 11th of April the first proposal was made for a more federalized Ukraine. And no, regular armies do not tend to have amateurs operating high-end ground-to-air missiles.

[Imperializt Russia]

I can tell you that people are really angered here now.

I'd say shock and sadness. Especially when compared to international standards, we're not quickly angered. The Russians would have been out on the streets burning Dutch flags by now and threatening our embassy (like they did after the arrest of a Russian diplomat who abused his children in the Netherlands) if a group of separatists from Ameland would have brought down a Russian carrier. Maybe that's an idea for the next Russian bomber that shows up unannounced in our airspace, by the way. We could always arm those crazy Frisians and call them "separatists".

Unless the navigator's being a tit, Russian reconnaissance flights do not penetrate airspace.
They're probing and testing reaction times, which they can, and do, do in international airspace.
Because obviously if they do stray into your airspace, the aircraft sent to intercept them have rights to force them out and/or engage.

Which clearly hasn't happened.
Reconnaissance probing interceptions are traditionally quite a friendly experience, actually, even during the Cold War.
Crew of both aircraft usually just start waving at each other and taking pictures.

[Limborg]

Are then? Did they informed the Donetsk Republic aswell? I don't think so. What you're saying is pretty much impossible. Its a warzone, not a peacefull nation. You're clearly the one with the bullshit here.

Do what how what? The Donetsk People's Republic is not a recognised state and has no recognised airspace. The Ukrainian military (or whoever) had declared a restriction on civil aviation flying below ~6500m, about the altitude at which an An-26 had previously been shot down.
Aircraft regularly fly over warzones because typically, SAM batteries aren't lighting them up.

That isn't part of the debate wich i had with him. Besides that, again, airplanes have been shot down, wich is in my eyes reason enough to stay away from that area.

[Imperializt Russia]

Idiots are present in every army, and they tend to operate such stuff. Planes had been shot down before in that region, so ofcourse the blame lies on those that made the flight plan, or at least for a big part.

Ukraine had plenty of time to enter into dialog with the East, instead of that they went to the east and arrested them for protesting. After that the fight began. Even then Ukraine had time to call for a dialog, but still they rather wanted to kill their own citzens then to create a peacefull and stable nation. There was no reason for letting the East leave, a federalization was all they asked, wich is completely understandable since those area's hold large Russian populations.

You clearly did not follow the news. A federalization has been proposed on multiple occasions. On the 11th of April the first proposal was made for a more federalized Ukraine. And no, regular armies do not tend to have amateurs operating high-end ground-to-air missiles.

They really do, it's known as the decline in training standards of armies in the East.

[Limborg]

I cannot recall the Anti-Russian sentiments were ever as high as now in The Netherlands.

Where do you live then? People i've spoken to don't blame Russia at all, they rather tend to blame Ukraine for refusing to solve the conflict through peacefull means.

[Limborg]

Are then? Did they informed the Donetsk Republic aswell? I don't think so. What you're saying is pretty much impossible. Its a warzone, not a peacefull nation. You're clearly the one with the bullshit here.

Fuck the “Donetsk People's Republic.” You don't get to be treated like a real nation when you have no actual recognized holdings and basically exist to try to prove that special snowflakes can have pretend countries too. They are a bunch of idealistic assclowns, not a functioning government.

And you're santa? If you don't have anything valid to add then please just don't respond on my comments. Just go back to your own hole.

[Imperializt Russia]

Do what how what? The Donetsk People's Republic is not a recognised state and has no recognised airspace. The Ukrainian military (or whoever) had declared a restriction on civil aviation flying below ~6500m, about the altitude at which an An-26 had previously been shot down.
Aircraft regularly fly over warzones because typically, SAM batteries aren't lighting them up.

That isn't part of the debate wich i had with him. Besides that, again, airplanes have been shot down, wich is in my eyes reason enough to stay away from that area.

Aircraft had been shot down with man-portable weapons, self-contained systems capable of acquiring and engaging aircraft at short range at relatively low altitudes of 2-4km.
These aircraft had exclusively been military aviation.

There was no credible risk at the time to civil aviation at high altitude, observing safety restrictions on low-altitude flight.

[Kahlenberg]

I'd say shock and sadness. Especially when compared to international standards, we're not quickly angered. The Russians would have been out on the streets burning Dutch flags by now and threatening our embassy (like they did after the arrest of a Russian diplomat who abused his children in the Netherlands) if a group of separatists from Ameland would have brought down a Russian carrier. Maybe that's an idea for the next Russian bomber that shows up unannounced in our airspace, by the way. We could always arm those crazy Frisians and call them "separatists".

Unless the navigator's being a tit, Russian reconnaissance flights do not penetrate airspace.
They're probing and testing reaction times, which they can, and do, do in international airspace.
Because obviously if they do stray into your airspace, the aircraft sent to intercept them have rights to force them out and/or engage.

Which clearly hasn't happened.
Reconnaissance probing interceptions are traditionally quite a friendly experience, actually, even during the Cold War.
Crew of both aircraft usually just start waving at each other and taking pictures.

I wasn't completely serious (it would be ludicrous to actually shoot down a Russian Bear over this), but Dutch fighters regularly need to escort the Russians out of our "zone of responsibility".

[Organized States]

Do what how what? The Donetsk People's Republic is not a recognised state and has no recognised airspace. The Ukrainian military (or whoever) had declared a restriction on civil aviation flying below ~6500m, about the altitude at which an An-26 had previously been shot down.
Aircraft regularly fly over warzones because typically, SAM batteries aren't lighting them up.

That isn't part of the debate wich i had with him. Besides that, again, airplanes have been shot down, wich is in my eyes reason enough to stay away from that area.

They were at a previously considered safe altitude, and were operating perfectly with in the norm. There had been a lot of flights going through there since the armed rebellion began, the only ones that had been shot down were Ukrainian Air Force aircraft with MANPADS.

[Imperializt Russia]

Unless the navigator's being a tit, Russian reconnaissance flights do not penetrate airspace.
They're probing and testing reaction times, which they can, and do, do in international airspace.
Because obviously if they do stray into your airspace, the aircraft sent to intercept them have rights to force them out and/or engage.

Which clearly hasn't happened.
Reconnaissance probing interceptions are traditionally quite a friendly experience, actually, even during the Cold War.
Crew of both aircraft usually just start waving at each other and taking pictures.

I wasn't completely serious (it would be ludicrous to actually shoot down a Russian Bear over this), but Dutch fighters regularly need to escort the Russians out of our "zone of responsibility".

It is quite critical to note that this zone of responsibility is not actually Dutch airspace, however.