Surge 2014: A debate on Illegal Immigration and US Policies.

[Rio Cana]

The last posts of this thread is making Machete uneasy.

For those who have no idea who he is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEr-qS01Jrc


And when it comes to the illegals, "She" will save them.

This about "She" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bU5gZXgeuo

[Freiheit Reich]

I don't see the problem.

Yea, because it's not a problem to wait 7 - 15 years to wait for a visa to come here.

There is a faster visa process for wealthy immigrants, especially those willing to start a business in the USA. This is fine, as I said before, we have enough poor people in the USA. We don't need more.

http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-c ... investment

spouse visas are likely faster than 7 years as well. So if you marry an American you can get in easier that way as well.

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/e ... iance.html

[Kraciva]

Yea, because it's not a problem to wait 7 - 15 years to wait for a visa to come here.

There is a faster visa process for wealthy immigrants, especially those willing to start a business in the USA. This is fine, as I said before, we have enough poor people in the USA. We don't need more.

http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-c ... investment

spouse visas are likely faster than 7 years as well. So if you marry an American you can get in easier that way as well.

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/e ... iance.html

Oh my goodness, you are a classist as well -_-

[Freiheit Reich]

Illegals immigrants come from all over the world, not just Central America.

Most of them come from Central America because it's easiest. How do you imagine that impoverished subsistence farmers in Africa would make their way to North America?

Plenty of Somalians manage to come in:

http://paa2006.princeton.edu/papers/61036

and of course problems have come from this as well (likely most of these Somalians were also poor and had weak education levels):

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/articles/ ... to-fix-it/

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/minneso ... pin-county

We need to be more picky about the immigrants we let in. We should be choosing the best and brightest. The USA has plenty of people and no longer needs to take anybody. Even McDonald's has higher requirements about whom they accept compared to the USA.

[The Scientific States]

Most of them come from Central America because it's easiest. How do you imagine that impoverished subsistence farmers in Africa would make their way to North America?

Plenty of Somalians manage to come in:

http://paa2006.princeton.edu/papers/61036

and of course problems have come from this as well (likely most of these Somalians were also poor and had weak education levels):

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/articles/ ... to-fix-it/

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/minneso ... pin-county

We need to be more picky about the immigrants we let in. We should be choosing the best and brightest. The USA has plenty of people and no longer needs to take anybody. Even McDonald's has higher requirements about whom they accept compared to the USA.

Somalians have terrible lives in their country, and try hard to get here, and you oppose it? It hasn't caused any problems.

We shouldn't be more picky. If people want to come to our country, I don't see the problem.

[Freiheit Reich]

The Chinese are managing to do it. Distance is no problem for them.

http://world.time.com/2013/11/27/chines ... ve-babies/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/maternity-t ... ir-babies/

You have no clue how that works do you?

How Chinese women do it is that they just come here with a tourist visa at around the time they are about to deliver to have the baby in U.S. soil then they go back to their country once they have the baby or just overstay their visas. This isn't some complicated equation.

The point is that people from all over the world can become illegal immigrants if they want to. The steps are easy: Overstay the tourist visa (which is breaking a rule), have a baby, take advantage of the USA welfare system, use baby to gain citizenship. If there were no border controls, hundreds of millions of people would come into the USA to do this and the USA resources would be strained.

[The Scientific States]

You have no clue how that works do you?

How Chinese women do it is that they just come here with a tourist visa at around the time they are about to deliver to have the baby in U.S. soil then they go back to their country once they have the baby or just overstay their visas. This isn't some complicated equation.

The point is that people from all over the world can become illegal immigrants if they want to. The steps are easy: Overstay the tourist visa (which is breaking a rule), have a baby, take advantage of the USA welfare system, use baby to gain citizenship. If there were no border controls, hundreds of millions of people would come into the USA to do this and the USA resources would be strained.

I don't support zero border controls, but saying that having no border controls would cause hundreds of millions of immigrants to come here is completely malarkey.

[Freiheit Reich]

I work with a bunch of Mexicans, Peruvians and Cubans. All of them are either United States citizens or working toward citizenship. I have heard racist slurs thrown at them by customers, most of the time claiming that they are illegal aliens and need to go back to where they came from. I believe that what is worse than illegal Imigration is the bigotry people show to the people they think are living in the States illegally.

It's pretty much because the illegal immigration thing against illegal immigrants has been focused on Latinos and therefore we're the target of seething slurs and racism now.

I've had a woman tell me I should go back to where I came from when I was in high school. I had no problem laughing in front of her. I've also seen and heard racist slurs towards people which then I correct while in conversation.

It is sad that a few million bad Latin Americans in the USA (ones that are illegal immigrants) have hurt the reputations of Latin American people in the USA that behave and follow the rules just like a few million African-American criminals have caused negative stereotypes towards the African-Americans that behave. It is just like the white members of the KKK have hurt perceptions of American whites everywhere.

Before people make rude comments, they should find out if the person is an illegal alien. If they are than the catcalls to 'return back to where you came from' would be perfectly acceptable.

[The Scientific States]

It's pretty much because the illegal immigration thing against illegal immigrants has been focused on Latinos and therefore we're the target of seething slurs and racism now.

I've had a woman tell me I should go back to where I came from when I was in high school. I had no problem laughing in front of her. I've also seen and heard racist slurs towards people which then I correct while in conversation.

It is sad that a few million bad Latin Americans in the USA (ones that are illegal immigrants) have hurt the reputations of Latin American people in the USA that behave and follow the rules just like a few million African-American criminals have caused negative stereotypes towards the African-Americans that behave. It is just like the white members of the KKK have hurt perceptions of American whites everywhere.

Before people make rude comments, they should find out if the person is an illegal alien. If they are than the catcalls to 'return back to where you came from' would be perfectly acceptable.

How are those rude, ignorant catcalls acceptable? And, how are all undocumented immigrants bad? They follow the law, work, are usually kind, and often times, they pay taxes.

[Freiheit Reich]

There is a faster visa process for wealthy immigrants, especially those willing to start a business in the USA. This is fine, as I said before, we have enough poor people in the USA. We don't need more.

http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-c ... investment

spouse visas are likely faster than 7 years as well. So if you marry an American you can get in easier that way as well.

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/e ... iance.html

Oh my goodness, you are a classist as well -_-

So are most Americans, I am just more honest about it. We are a country more divided by class than race. I have found that on average, middle-class people are more polite than poor people. They are also less likely to commit crimes and they have higher education levels. They are also less likely to beg for money from hard working people (a pet peeve of mine). Most of the top dangerous cities in the USA also have higher than average poverty rates. There is a link between poverty and crime.

Be honest, if you had the chance would you like to live in a poor neighborhood located in East St. Louis, Flint, Gary, or Camden? If you say no, are you being classist as well?

Many wealthy liberals talk about how they care about the poor but few actually want to live with the poor.

[Freiheit Reich]

Plenty of Somalians manage to come in:

http://paa2006.princeton.edu/papers/61036

and of course problems have come from this as well (likely most of these Somalians were also poor and had weak education levels):

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/articles/ ... to-fix-it/

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/minneso ... pin-county

We need to be more picky about the immigrants we let in. We should be choosing the best and brightest. The USA has plenty of people and no longer needs to take anybody. Even McDonald's has higher requirements about whom they accept compared to the USA.

Somalians have terrible lives in their country, and try hard to get here, and you oppose it? It hasn't caused any problems.

We shouldn't be more picky. If people want to come to our country, I don't see the problem.

You didn't read the sources. It has caused problems. Maybe we should have only taken in the wealthy and educated Somalians and let the rest go elsewhere such as Kenya or Saudi Arabia or Egypt. This might have prevented Somali-American gangs from forming. It might have also stopped Somali-Americans from using welfare because wealthy and educated people are less likely to need welfare.

[Kraciva]

Oh my goodness, you are a classist as well -_-

So are most Americans, I am just more honest about it. We are a country more divided by class than race. I have found that on average, middle-class people are more polite than poor people. They are also less likely to commit crimes and they have higher education levels. They are also less likely to beg for money from hard working people (a pet peeve of mine). Most of the top dangerous cities in the USA also have higher than average poverty rates. There is a link between poverty and crime.

Be honest, if you had the chance would you like to live in a poor neighborhood located in East St. Louis, Flint, Gary, or Camden? If you say no, are you being classist as well?

Many wealthy liberals talk about how they care about the poor but few actually want to live with the poor.

Bless your heart, have you even interacted with "poor people?" Guess what pal, I come from a family that was poor. I know the struggles my parents had to make to make sure my twin and I got a great future. And let me tell you, everyone from a poor background that I've interacted with are nice. I live in D.C., and so I see homeless people hanging around a lot. And they certainly aren't rude. Some just appreciate a talk, for someone to listen to them. Surprise, every poor family struggles to make ends meet, to help their kids get somewhere in life. Does it always work out, no. Do some join gangs, yeah, of course. But you're bunching in a huge group of people and labeling them as rude potential criminals. And you're doing the same thing with immigrants and to be honest, every time I see one of your posts I get sick to my stomach. These are human beings. They go through hardship to be a part of the American dream. Yet people like you just look at them and say "Oh, they gonna steal my jobs! They gunna take advantage of those damn welfare liberals and take our money so they can get drugs, etc." And yet, and yet, those 11 million undocumented immigrants who live in the U.S. pay our taxes. Oh yes, they pay our taxes, they join the military, they feel in debt to America. But no, let's turn them away because "we don't need more poor people." Asshole.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yea, because it's not a problem to wait 7 - 15 years to wait for a visa to come here.

There is a faster visa process for wealthy immigrants, especially those willing to start a business in the USA. This is fine, as I said before, we have enough poor people in the USA. We don't need more.

http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-c ... investment

spouse visas are likely faster than 7 years as well. So if you marry an American you can get in easier that way as well.

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/e ... iance.html

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here.

If you think the system is not broken you're completely full of shit.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Somalians have terrible lives in their country, and try hard to get here, and you oppose it? It hasn't caused any problems.

We shouldn't be more picky. If people want to come to our country, I don't see the problem.

You didn't read the sources. It has caused problems. Maybe we should have only taken in the wealthy and educated Somalians and let the rest go elsewhere such as Kenya or Saudi Arabia or Egypt. This might have prevented Somali-American gangs from forming. It might have also stopped Somali-Americans from using welfare because wealthy and educated people are less likely to need welfare.

Gangs happen.

If you think only Somalians or Latin Americans create gangs you're full of crap. Blacks, whites, and every citizen in between creates gangs. Just because you're focusing on a Somalian doesn't make your point more valid.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It is sad that a few million bad Latin Americans in the USA (ones that are illegal immigrants) have hurt the reputations of Latin American people in the USA that behave and follow the rules just like a few million African-American criminals have caused negative stereotypes towards the African-Americans that behave. It is just like the white members of the KKK have hurt perceptions of American whites everywhere.

Before people make rude comments, they should find out if the person is an illegal alien. If they are than the catcalls to 'return back to where you came from' would be perfectly acceptable.

And how would you know? I'm not telling you shit if you ask me "are you an illegal"; I'd most likely tell you "fuck you, it's none of your God damn business" if we were in person.

The fact you're suggesting that we all become private detectives in order to justify cat-calling others is sickening.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You have no clue how that works do you?

How Chinese women do it is that they just come here with a tourist visa at around the time they are about to deliver to have the baby in U.S. soil then they go back to their country once they have the baby or just overstay their visas. This isn't some complicated equation.

The point is that people from all over the world can become illegal immigrants if they want to. The steps are easy: Overstay the tourist visa (which is breaking a rule), have a baby, take advantage of the USA welfare system, use baby to gain citizenship. If there were no border controls, hundreds of millions of people would come into the USA to do this and the USA resources would be strained.

There's no "hundreds of millions" trying to come into the U.S.; that's a pipe dream.

You honestly know nothing about other countries, do you? I mean, honestly, you know nearly zero about immigrants, I bet you've hardly met an immigrant in your life and talked to them in a respectful manner. But you know? That's fine, I'm not the one who speaks out of ignorance.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Oh my goodness, you are a classist as well -_-

So are most Americans, I am just more honest about it. We are a country more divided by class than race. I have found that on average, middle-class people are more polite than poor people. They are also less likely to commit crimes and they have higher education levels. They are also less likely to beg for money from hard working people (a pet peeve of mine). Most of the top dangerous cities in the USA also have higher than average poverty rates. There is a link between poverty and crime.

Be honest, if you had the chance would you like to live in a poor neighborhood located in East St. Louis, Flint, Gary, or Camden? If you say no, are you being classist as well?

Many wealthy liberals talk about how they care about the poor but few actually want to live with the poor.

Bullshit.

I am middle class but I live in a poor-ish neighborhood. It's not as bad as other neighborhoods, but it is poor-ish. I've had people ask me for money in downtown, do you know what I do? I give them enough money so they can go at least buy something to eat.

There is a link between poverty and crime, but correlation =/= causation. A poor person isn't always a criminal and a criminal isn't always a poor person. There is a correlation between violent crimes and poverty, but there is also a correlation between white-collar crimes and being rich, so I must assume you also think all rich people are embezzlers and tax evaders. Good to know.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

-snip-

I have come to believe they are something that I cannot mention because I'd be warned for trollnaming.

And, as far as I know, calling them such is bad and horrible, but calling out the rule isn't.

[Kiruri]

The point is that people from all over the world can become illegal immigrants if they want to. The steps are easy: Overstay the tourist visa (which is breaking a rule), have a baby, take advantage of the USA welfare system, use baby to gain citizenship. If there were no border controls, hundreds of millions of people would come into the USA to do this and the USA resources would be strained.

There's no "hundreds of millions" trying to come into the U.S.; that's a pipe dream.

You honestly know nothing about other countries, do you? I mean, honestly, you know nearly zero about immigrants, I bet you've hardly met an immigrant in your life and talked to them in a respectful manner. But you know? That's fine, I'm not the one who speaks out of ignorance.

*Sigh*

I fear, soldi, there's nothing anyone can do to get rid of the ignorance of some people... :/

I still wonder how someone comes to that conclusion.. "hundreds of millions"? *snort* riiighht

[Arkinesia]

I say kick out all the Mexicans and find some american citizens that will work picking fruit for $3 a day.

Farmers managed to pick fruit 100 years ago with little Mexican labor. Are Americans too stupid to know how to pick fruit these days? We don't need Mexicans to pick fruit. The wages would be well over $3 a day, even if minimum wage rules were ended (I am against the minimum wage laws).

Prisoners could be hired out to farmers to pick fruit with some of the wages going to their upkeep and some going to their victims (let them keep 15-20% though as incentive to work).

In 2011, Governor Nathan Deal signed HB 56 in Georgia, which resulted in migrant farm labor—documented and un—declaring that they would not help pick the peaches in Georgia until the law was repealed.

What resulted was a scramble to find replacements for the chiefly Mexican migrant workers. Farms tried paying exorbitant salaries (upwards of $25/hour)—to no avail. The Georgia Department of Corrections brought out prisoners in chain gangs, and the prisoners sat down after less than half an hour and refused to continue. In the end, Georgian peach farmers lost billions of dollars because the peaches just rotted on the trees.

With some of the provisions forcibly relaxed by court order, migrant farm workers returned in 2012, and profits were back to normal. But the impact of these supposed protections of sovereignty were laid bare to any agrarian states considering similar measures.

If you think Americans will try picking peaches in 110-degree heat, well…you're wrong. You can't even pay them $25/hour to get them to do it, but these migrant workers will do it for minimum wage or less.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If you think Americans will try picking peaches in 110-degree heat, well…you're wrong. You can't even pay them $25/hour to get them to do it, but these migrant workers will do it for minimum wage or less.

You know? It always strikes me odd how people can say "let us Americans pick the fields and dig trenches with shovels! We need the money we'll do it!" and in the end they get beaten by a Mexican person in the same thing that they swear they can do it.

I've had many people come to me and tell me "why does your dad charge 95 bucks an hour for Sprinkler Repairs? All he does is replace a head and dig trenches" well, try to get out there with a sharpshooter all day under 100+ degree heat and try to think and replace heads, use a torch, find valves, repair them, and so on and so forth, all under the heat; let's see how you like it (not you specifically, I mean in general); the same people complaining about Mexican workers are the same ones who cannot do the job.

I'm really interested now to know if Reich has ever picked up a shovel and worked in the middle of summer digging trenches or picking fruit.

[Des-Bal]

We've become dependent on illegal labor as a result trying to stop illegal immigration means cutting off that resource.

[Fireye]

There is a faster visa process for wealthy immigrants, especially those willing to start a business in the USA. This is fine, as I said before, we have enough poor people in the USA. We don't need more.

http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-c ... investment

spouse visas are likely faster than 7 years as well. So if you marry an American you can get in easier that way as well.

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/e ... iance.html

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here.

If you think the system is not broken you're completely full of shit.

The system isn't perfect, but it's not so bad as to justify completely throwing the system out and saying "whelp, we can't do anything about the illegal immigrants, might as well give them all amnesty."

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The system isn't perfect, but it's not so bad as to justify completely throwing the system out and saying "whelp, we can't do anything about the illegal immigrants, might as well give them all amnesty."

Revamping the whole God damn thing IS needed. We're working under 1940's assumptions at best, and with a severely outdated system at worst (at least in certain areas).

Also, I'm not a fan of amnesty as in giving them citizenship automatically; I'd much prefer to give them the chance to apply for Permanent Residency and meanwhile have a work permit so they can keep contributing to the economy; but if amnesty is the only practical solution I have no qualms supporting it either.

I'm a pragmatist, so I don't care what needs to be done as long as we all improve as a country in the long run; and mass deportations have been proven to not only be impractical, but to also damage our economy so I just don't support it. As well as, being an immigrant, finding the current system wholly inadequate given the long waiting lists (some spanning up to 100 years; some people just don't have that long to be granted residency in-death).

Basically the whole "but it's the law!" argument just doesn't fly with me. Just because it's the law doesn't mean it's practical.

[Freiheit Reich]

It is sad that a few million bad Latin Americans in the USA (ones that are illegal immigrants) have hurt the reputations of Latin American people in the USA that behave and follow the rules just like a few million African-American criminals have caused negative stereotypes towards the African-Americans that behave. It is just like the white members of the KKK have hurt perceptions of American whites everywhere.

Before people make rude comments, they should find out if the person is an illegal alien. If they are than the catcalls to 'return back to where you came from' would be perfectly acceptable.

And how would you know? I'm not telling you shit if you ask me "are you an illegal"; I'd most likely tell you "fuck you, it's none of your God damn business" if we were in person.

The fact you're suggesting that we all become private detectives in order to justify cat-calling others is sickening.

Perhaps casual questions. Ex. 'Where are you from', if the person says a foreign nation than the next question could be 'so, did you find the process of obtaining a residency permit difficult'?' and finally 'how did you obtain your residency permit'?

If these 3 questions are answered in a detailed manner than chances are the person is legal. If the response is rude swearing than the person can be suspected of being an illegal immigrant and then it might be OK to say the rude anti-illegal immigrant comments. The questions could be asked in a friendly and casual manner, just like friends chatting about the weather or sports.