Surge 2014: A debate on Illegal Immigration and US Policies.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Young children aren't and shouldn't be expected to fill out complicated forms so they know they can be safe. Non-Anglophone children really aren't. People are expected to do this thing called acting decently and not just say "OMGERD ILLEGAL ILLEGAL," meanwhile these people have basically been cheated out of their childhood and a huge chunk of their life and livelihood.

Imagine if the USA accepted 2 billion very poor people in the world in the next few years? The USA lifestyle would collapse. We would face overcrowded slums and couldn't financially support such a massive influx of poverty. What you want is to make the US legal citizens face a lower quality of life in order to make you feel good.

This is what the USA will look like if we continue to ignore illegal immigration:

http://artsytime.com/life-in-slums-of-mumbai/

Do you really, honestly believe 2 billion people want to come here?! Oh man, you're funny.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

(it's not exactly dystopic, I think though... I mean I live here and it's pretty nice, but that's just cause I'm from a fairly well off family)

Some of the effects of bad wealth distribution, like crime, the effects of conservative politics, the state of public services and so on, affect the whole of society.

But yeah, America is still not Brazil. It can become a look-alike though, and I'm not talking about genetics.

[Threayce]

Young children aren't and shouldn't be expected to fill out complicated forms so they know they can be safe. Non-Anglophone children really aren't. People are expected to do this thing called acting decently and not just say "OMGERD ILLEGAL ILLEGAL," meanwhile these people have basically been cheated out of their childhood and a huge chunk of their life and livelihood.

Imagine if the USA accepted 2 billion very poor people in the world in the next few years? The USA lifestyle would collapse. We would face overcrowded slums and couldn't financially support such a massive influx of poverty. What you want is to make the US legal citizens face a lower quality of life in order to make you feel good.

This is what the USA will look like if we continue to ignore illegal immigration:

http://artsytime.com/life-in-slums-of-mumbai/

Ehrm, where are you getting the very specific number of 2 Billion?

As if, almost 30% of the world population is living in poverty in central america.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Do you really, honestly believe 2 billion people want to come here?! Oh man, you're funny.

Mom seems pretty emphatic on the "screw these pretentious Anglos and all their Dantesque icy cold".

[Blekksprutia]

What it takes to become a US Citizen:

http://uscitizenshiptestguide.com/text/apply.html

NOW imagine that you're eight years old and have to go through all this.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's not an issue of whether or not we want to help the kids, it's that we can't.

Millions of poor people would jump at the chance to come to our country, but it would crush our health and education system, and cause huge amounts of crime and diseases.

It would destroy what they came here for.

Let those in who will work hard, stay out of crime, and push our country forward come in. But, we need to set up a simple path to becoming a citizen. Illegal immigration crushes us, but legal immigration is what we are founded upon.

1. We can, we just don't want to pretty much like we don't want to help the poor in our country. And before you say anything, if you are not looking for solutions and implementing them you're part of the problem of apathy for our poor.

2. They really wouldn't. And your argument about crime and diseases is bullshit. It has been proven that illegal immigrants commit infinitesimally less crimes than actual U.S. Citizens as a whole.

3. No it wouldn't.

4. I agree, but with the people who are here right now is just ridiculous to say "LET'S DEPORT THEM ALL! LET'S NOT HELP THE CHILDREN! OUR SOCIETY WILL COLLAPSE IF WE DON'T!" it won't. They're already here, so I don't see the point of being so pent up about them.

[Blekksprutia]

Young children aren't and shouldn't be expected to fill out complicated forms so they know they can be safe. Non-Anglophone children really aren't. People are expected to do this thing called acting decently and not just say "OMGERD ILLEGAL ILLEGAL," meanwhile these people have basically been cheated out of their childhood and a huge chunk of their life and livelihood.

Imagine if the USA accepted 2 billion very poor people in the world in the next few years? The USA lifestyle would collapse. We would face overcrowded slums and couldn't financially support such a massive influx of poverty. What you want is to make the US legal citizens face a lower quality of life in order to make you feel good.

This is what the USA will look like if we continue to ignore illegal immigration:

http://artsytime.com/life-in-slums-of-mumbai/

2 billion? O.o We're talking about a few thousand children

[Soldati Senza Confini]

What it takes to become a US Citizen:

http://uscitizenshiptestguide.com/text/apply.html

NOW imagine that you're eight years old and have to go through all this.

People think is so easy to become a citizen. They don't realize they have to become permanent residents first and foremost. They don't realize getting even a student visa is a really long and complicated process that it can take on average a year or so, a permanent residency take in average 10 to 15 years.

Some people just don't have 10 to 15 years to sit on their ass and do nothing. Some are truly desperate and 10 years down the line just doesn't cut it.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

2 billion? O.o We're talking about a few thousand children

Latin America has just 600 million people. Some of them have rather decent lifestyles. Others are proud of their countries, or have a disgust for the idea of getting conditioned to live in another culture as an underdog with a heritage that is symbol of negative prestige.

[Blekksprutia]

What it takes to become a US Citizen:

http://uscitizenshiptestguide.com/text/apply.html

NOW imagine that you're eight years old and have to go through all this.

People think is so easy to become a citizen. They don't realize they have to become permanent residents first and foremost. They don't realize getting even a student visa is a really long and complicated process that it can take on average a year or so, a permanent residency take in average 10 to 15 years.

Some people just don't have 10 to 15 years to sit on their ass and do nothing. Some are truly desperate and 10 years down the line just doesn't cut it.

And it's definitely not easy when you're four feet tall and don't speak English.

[Freiheit Reich]

Laws changed but we are still expected to follow the laws as they are now. They were lucky, they came when it was easier but now it is harder.

If you want to follow 1890's laws, does that mean you support child labor as well. This was more acceptable back then. You are OK with the foreigners entering the USA ignoring some laws. Which laws can they choose to ignore and which do they have to follow?

That is why I proposed selling US citizenship for $500,000. This would make the process fast and ensure people that can financially support themselves would be the ones entering the USA. We should make it easier for the wealthy people to enter. We could reduce this requirement for those with certain university degrees. Educated people are more likely to improve society as well.

The children entering the USA illegally probably don't have a university degree or much money in the bank. They are likely poor and undereducated. The USA has enough poor people, we don't need more. Visit East St. Louis or Flint, Michigan if you don't believe this.

I know poverty, I had to go to a school for homeless children to volunteer so I've seen it with my own eyes. Again, before you begin to make assumptions about me is best if you try and keep it neutral.

Also, no. Citizenship is an honor, not something we can sell easily. Your idea literally mocks every U.S. Naturalized Citizen ever.

Also, yes, but you know what else? They're coming here for a better life, much like your great-grandparents did. They just don't have the luck your grandparents did to just be able to go through a checkpoint.

And I never said it was okay for them to disrespect our laws, but at the same time getting rid of 11 million people is just insane. You can't possibly expect me to believe, with a serious face, that we can get rid of 11 million people plus God knows how many immigrant children without hurting ourselves in the process. That implies ignorance at a level that is more than usual for American society.

Before we get rid of the 11 million people we could make use of them. This is why I said we could put them on chain gangs and in work camps. We can get 1 year of work out of them and then deport them. The chain gang program could actually allow us to profit off of illegal immigrants because they could be used plus the punishment through labor will be a deterrent to those considering illegal immigration. Maybe they will choose to illegally enter Argentina or Chile or Brazil instead.

I wasn't sure if you were one of those people that think the USA streets are paved with gold and that everybody drives Cadillacs and lives in McMansions. Good to know that you don't. I imagine there are plenty of people in foreign countries that think poverty does not exist in the USA because of TV shows and movies. Some people seem to think the USA doesn't have any problems and that we can afford to take care of the world while ignoring the needs of our citizens. The UN seems to think this.

Many countries make it hard for Americans to get citizenship. We can't just walk in through a checkpoint these days (like you want to allow). Is this fair? You want to make it easy to get US citizenship when many other nations make it hard for Americans to get their citizenship. This doesn't sound too fair.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

People think is so easy to become a citizen. They don't realize they have to become permanent residents first and foremost. They don't realize getting even a student visa is a really long and complicated process that it can take on average a year or so, a permanent residency take in average 10 to 15 years.

Some people just don't have 10 to 15 years to sit on their ass and do nothing. Some are truly desperate and 10 years down the line just doesn't cut it.

And it's definitely not easy when you're four feet tall and don't speak English.

I mean, I became a citizen last year (economic issues). I came here to the U.S. in 2003, my dad filed my residency papers to be a permanent resident when I was 7. It took me 17 years to become a citizen, almost 2 decades. And it took me 7 years to become a permanent resident holder.

It's easy to talk about how easy legal immigration is when you're not on the receiving end.

[Blakk Metal]

It's not an issue of whether or not we want to help the kids, it's that we can't.

Millions of poor people would jump at the chance to come to our country, but it would crush our health and education system, and cause huge amounts of crime and diseases.

It would destroy what they came here for.

Let those in who will work hard, stay out of crime, and push our country forward come in. But, we need to set up a simple path to becoming a citizen. Illegal immigration crushes us, but legal immigration is what we are founded upon.

1. We can, we just don't want to pretty much like we don't want to help the poor in our country. And before you say anything, if you are not looking for solutions and implementing them you're part of the problem of apathy for our poor.

Letting them in the US because we don't have a solution is like shooting ourselves in the foot because we don't have DDT.

2. They really wouldn't. And your argument about crime and diseases is bullshit. It has been proven that illegal immigrants commit infinitesimally less crimes than actual U.S. Citizens as a whole.

No it hasn't. It's only been proven that illegal immigrants have been caught doing less crimes.

3. No it wouldn't.

Yes it would.

4. I agree, but with the people who are here right now is just ridiculous to say "LET'S DEPORT THEM ALL! LET'S NOT HELP THE CHILDREN! OUR SOCIETY WILL COLLAPSE IF WE DON'T!" it won't. They're already here, so I don't see the point of being so pent up about them.

That's like saying if a .2 alcohol level won't kill you, a 20 won't kill you either.

Imagine if the USA accepted 2 billion very poor people in the world in the next few years? The USA lifestyle would collapse. We would face overcrowded slums and couldn't financially support such a massive influx of poverty. What you want is to make the US legal citizens face a lower quality of life in order to make you feel good.

This is what the USA will look like if we continue to ignore illegal immigration:

http://artsytime.com/life-in-slums-of-mumbai/

2 billion? O.o We're talking about a few thousand children

Obviously you haven't heard of hyperbole.

[Blekksprutia]

Obviously you haven't heard of hyperbole.

Obviously you haven't heard of not exaggerating absurd amounts to make your insane argument sound more reasonable.

[ShadowDragons]

It's not an issue of whether or not we want to help the kids, it's that we can't.

Millions of poor people would jump at the chance to come to our country, but it would crush our health and education system, and cause huge amounts of crime and diseases.

It would destroy what they came here for.

Let those in who will work hard, stay out of crime, and push our country forward come in. But, we need to set up a simple path to becoming a citizen. Illegal immigration crushes us, but legal immigration is what we are founded upon.

1. We can, we just don't want to pretty much like we don't want to help the poor in our country. And before you say anything, if you are not looking for solutions and implementing them you're part of the problem of apathy for our poor.

2. They really wouldn't. And your argument about crime and diseases is bullshit. It has been proven that illegal immigrants commit infinitesimally less crimes than actual U.S. Citizens as a whole.

3. No it wouldn't.

4. I agree, but with the people who are here right now is just ridiculous to say "LET'S DEPORT THEM ALL! LET'S NOT HELP THE CHILDREN! OUR SOCIETY WILL COLLAPSE IF WE DON'T!" it won't. They're already here, so I don't see the point of being so pent up about them.

We need to deport them to give an example of not taking the illegal immigration pathway. They have all sorts of diseases and border guards have caught many of them. Obama asked for $4,000,000,000 to take care of illegals. We need border security so that they take the legal pathways. We need to create a simple path to citizen ship, which dems want, and we need border security so that they take that path, which republicans want. We need both or either will fail.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I know poverty, I had to go to a school for homeless children to volunteer so I've seen it with my own eyes. Again, before you begin to make assumptions about me is best if you try and keep it neutral.

Also, no. Citizenship is an honor, not something we can sell easily. Your idea literally mocks every U.S. Naturalized Citizen ever.

Also, yes, but you know what else? They're coming here for a better life, much like your great-grandparents did. They just don't have the luck your grandparents did to just be able to go through a checkpoint.

And I never said it was okay for them to disrespect our laws, but at the same time getting rid of 11 million people is just insane. You can't possibly expect me to believe, with a serious face, that we can get rid of 11 million people plus God knows how many immigrant children without hurting ourselves in the process. That implies ignorance at a level that is more than usual for American society.

Before we get rid of the 11 million people we could make use of them. This is why I said we could put them on chain gangs and in work camps. We can get 1 year of work out of them and then deport them. The chain gang program could actually allow us to profit off of illegal immigrants because they could be used plus the punishment through labor will be a deterrent to those considering illegal immigration. Maybe they will choose to illegally enter Argentina or Chile or Brazil instead.

I wasn't sure if you were one of those people that think the USA streets are paved with gold and that everybody drives Cadillacs and lives in McMansions. Good to know that you don't. I imagine there are plenty of people in foreign countries that think poverty does not exist in the USA because of TV shows and movies. Some people seem to think the USA doesn't have any problems and that we can afford to take care of the world while ignoring the needs of our citizens. The UN seems to think this.

Many countries make it hard for Americans to get citizenship. We can't just walk in through a checkpoint these days (like you want to allow). Is this fair? You want to make it easy to get US citizenship when many other nations make it hard for Americans to get their citizenship. This doesn't sound too fair.

1. That is a horrendous idea and nobody would back this up. You and I both know that putting them in forced labor would be an outcry from several factions - including several members of the white population. It is just an idea that is impractical and it smacks of pre-civil war era.

2. The UN doesn't think this way because the U.S. is also part of the UN. Seriously, do your research.

3. And many other countries are not the U.S. that has a broken system. Their system is quite easy to understand, this system is just bollocks.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

1. We can, we just don't want to pretty much like we don't want to help the poor in our country. And before you say anything, if you are not looking for solutions and implementing them you're part of the problem of apathy for our poor.

2. They really wouldn't. And your argument about crime and diseases is bullshit. It has been proven that illegal immigrants commit infinitesimally less crimes than actual U.S. Citizens as a whole.

3. No it wouldn't.

4. I agree, but with the people who are here right now is just ridiculous to say "LET'S DEPORT THEM ALL! LET'S NOT HELP THE CHILDREN! OUR SOCIETY WILL COLLAPSE IF WE DON'T!" it won't. They're already here, so I don't see the point of being so pent up about them.

We need to deport them to give an example of not taking the illegal immigration pathway.

They have all sorts of diseases and border guards have caught many of them.

Obama asked for $4,000,000,000 to take care of illegals. We need border security so that they take the legal pathways. We need to create a simple path to citizen ship, which dems want, and we need border security so that they take that path, which republicans want. We need both or either will fail.

No, we really don't need to do that. The solving of our issue with them doesn't necessarily imply that we're making ourselves look weak with immigration. You're imposing a false dichotomy.

No, they don't; well, except the ones coming, maybe, but the ones already here don't have any diseases that are fatal or extinct in the U.S.

And? Do you even know the cost of actually mass deporting everyone? Implicit costs included. We're gaining more with letting these people stay rather than deporting them.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

1. We can, we just don't want to pretty much like we don't want to help the poor in our country. And before you say anything, if you are not looking for solutions and implementing them you're part of the problem of apathy for our poor.

Letting them in the US because we don't have a solution is like shooting ourselves in the foot because we don't have DDT.

2. They really wouldn't. And your argument about crime and diseases is bullshit. It has been proven that illegal immigrants commit infinitesimally less crimes than actual U.S. Citizens as a whole.

No it hasn't. It's only been proven that illegal immigrants have been caught doing less crimes.

3. No it wouldn't.

Yes it would.

4. I agree, but with the people who are here right now is just ridiculous to say "LET'S DEPORT THEM ALL! LET'S NOT HELP THE CHILDREN! OUR SOCIETY WILL COLLAPSE IF WE DON'T!" it won't. They're already here, so I don't see the point of being so pent up about them.

That's like saying if a .2 alcohol level won't kill you, a 20 won't kill you either.

1-3. I never talked about incoming illegal immigrants. I am talking about existing illegal immigrants here. Also, nice to know you don't know how to look for sources and extrapolating them to the actual figures of the FBI. Also, even with the current population in the U.S. of illegal immigrants, you can't possibly expect for me to believe that they make more crimes than U.S. citizens when we have 300 million legal U.S. Citizens or visa holders and only 11 million illegal immigrants.

4. And I never talked about ingesting more alcohol. You're literally just dodging and bending my point. My argument, using your terms, is "a .2 alcohol level is not killing you so why the fuck are you worrying about .2 alcohol" rather than "oh it's okay if you ingest more and raise your level to 20". But, nice strawman you did there.

[Freiheit Reich]

Imagine if the USA accepted 2 billion very poor people in the world in the next few years? The USA lifestyle would collapse. We would face overcrowded slums and couldn't financially support such a massive influx of poverty. What you want is to make the US legal citizens face a lower quality of life in order to make you feel good.

This is what the USA will look like if we continue to ignore illegal immigration:

http://artsytime.com/life-in-slums-of-mumbai/

Do you really, honestly believe 2 billion people want to come here?! Oh man, you're funny.

Yes, I think at least that many would live in the USA if they could. People love the USA-they see the TV shows and movies and they want the 'American lifestyle.'

[Freiheit Reich]

Imagine if the USA accepted 2 billion very poor people in the world in the next few years? The USA lifestyle would collapse. We would face overcrowded slums and couldn't financially support such a massive influx of poverty. What you want is to make the US legal citizens face a lower quality of life in order to make you feel good.

This is what the USA will look like if we continue to ignore illegal immigration:

http://artsytime.com/life-in-slums-of-mumbai/

Ehrm, where are you getting the very specific number of 2 Billion?

As if, almost 30% of the world population is living in poverty in central america.

3 billion live on less than $2.50 a day. I am sure about 2/3 of these people would love to come to the USA.

http://statisticbrain.com/world-poverty-statistics/

[Blakk Metal]

Letting them in the US because we don't have a solution is like shooting ourselves in the foot because we don't have DDT.



No it hasn't. It's only been proven that illegal immigrants have been caught doing less crimes.



Yes it would.



That's like saying if a .2 alcohol level won't kill you, a 20 won't kill you either.

1-3. I never talked about incoming illegal immigrants. I am talking about existing illegal immigrants here. Also, nice to know you don't know how to look for sources and extrapolating them to the actual figures of the FBI. Also, even with the current population in the U.S. of illegal immigrants, you can't possibly expect for me to believe that they make more crimes than U.S. citizens when we have 300 million legal U.S. Citizens or visa holders and only 11 million illegal immigrants.

]4. And I never talked about ingesting more alcohol. You're literally just dodging and bending my point. My argument, using your terms, is "a .2 alcohol level is not killing you so why the fuck are you worrying about .2 alcohol" rather than "oh it's okay if you ingest more and raise your level to 20". But, nice strawman you did there.

You implicitly said that stopping an increase of illegal immigrants would be bad.

[Norstal]

Do you really, honestly believe 2 billion people want to come here?! Oh man, you're funny.

Yes, I think at least that many would live in the USA if they could. People love the USA-they see the TV shows and movies and they want the 'American lifestyle.'

As an immigrant here, no, not that many people want to live here. Probably because you people made immigration hard as hell.

[Threayce]

Letting them in the US because we don't have a solution is like shooting ourselves in the foot because we don't have DDT.

This literally has nothing to do with any of the assertions you are responding to.

No it hasn't. It's only been proven that illegal immigrants have been caught doing less crimes.

http://cis.org/ImmigrantCrime
So are you suggesting that all crime related data is invalid simply because come people get away with crime, or that because these people are immigrants, they are more likely to commit crime, and then get away with it? because the former is laughable at best, and the former is severely racist, and unfounded.

Yes it would.

You made the assertion, you provide a source.

That's like saying if a .2 alcohol level won't kill you, a 20 won't kill you either.

So, you are implying that opening the boarders will allow a 100% increase in immigration activity. Source please.

Obviously you haven't heard of hyperbole.

Obviously he had no argument if he had to bend the fabric of the universe in order to get his argument to work.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Do you really, honestly believe 2 billion people want to come here?! Oh man, you're funny.

Yes, I think at least that many would live in the USA if they could. People love the USA-they see the TV shows and movies and they want the 'American lifestyle.'

I'm sorry, but the U.S. isn't that great that almost 1/3rd of the global population would like to come here if they could.

Even if you were to make more lax immigration laws and a simpler immigration code you wouldn't see 2 billion people applying. Hell, we have 11 million illegal immigrants since the 1980s, so your argument is pretty much invalid.

[Freiheit Reich]

Before we get rid of the 11 million people we could make use of them. This is why I said we could put them on chain gangs and in work camps. We can get 1 year of work out of them and then deport them. The chain gang program could actually allow us to profit off of illegal immigrants because they could be used plus the punishment through labor will be a deterrent to those considering illegal immigration. Maybe they will choose to illegally enter Argentina or Chile or Brazil instead.

I wasn't sure if you were one of those people that think the USA streets are paved with gold and that everybody drives Cadillacs and lives in McMansions. Good to know that you don't. I imagine there are plenty of people in foreign countries that think poverty does not exist in the USA because of TV shows and movies. Some people seem to think the USA doesn't have any problems and that we can afford to take care of the world while ignoring the needs of our citizens. The UN seems to think this.

Many countries make it hard for Americans to get citizenship. We can't just walk in through a checkpoint these days (like you want to allow). Is this fair? You want to make it easy to get US citizenship when many other nations make it hard for Americans to get their citizenship. This doesn't sound too fair.

1. That is a horrendous idea and nobody would back this up. You and I both know that putting them in forced labor would be an outcry from several factions - including several members of the white population. It is just an idea that is impractical and it smacks of pre-civil war era.

2. The UN doesn't think this way because the U.S. is also part of the UN. Seriously, do your research.

3. And many other countries are not the U.S. that has a broken system. Their system is quite easy to understand, this system is just bollocks.

1. white illegal immigrants will be working on the chain gangs next to other races. I believe in punishing illegal immigrants of all races equally. Besides, they would be run in a humane way. 8 hours of labor per day, food and water breaks, etc. They would also get paid some money for their work.

2. an example of the UN asking rich countries to help the poor (and not the only example)

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26839643/ns/w ... 8gSmLF2kkY