Surge 2014: A debate on Illegal Immigration and US Policies.

[Blekksprutia]

They're KIDS, man! Have some empathy.

I don't care how much the US has to pay Central American child services, it is a bad idea for them to come unvetted into the US, even as slaves.

Please explain yourself, I'm really curious to hear this.

[ShadowDragons]

My Theme Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSrTnWDTdwI

Thank you for posting that nicely irrelevant link here?

Just replying to other irrelevant posts

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Illegal is used in the same sense and intensity people would have used wetback a few years ago. Notice how they both have the same connotation, adding to the fact that illegal actually actively dehumanizes people through painting them under the widely-repulsed label of "criminal".

They are criminals.

Criminal implies it is a criminal offense.

Crossing the border illegally is a civil offense, pretty much like jaywalking, so it really doesn't make sense to call them criminals.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

So is everyone who ever jaywalked, or everyone who ever tax evaded, or everyone who ever practiced "everyday corruption", and even lots of cases where people did not appropriately disposed of litter!

Your point?

It's very weird that in a country with pervasive historic and surviving structural racism and nativism, the only minor crime that gets you dehumanized and victim of an endless rain of targeting hate and exclusionary language is the one practiced by people who, guess what, have a different racial/national origin.

It's morally hypocritical to assert their criminality if you aren't going to bother as much of your time with other equally unlawful and more actually harmful ones. Actually, maybe you guys could use the strong force of your activism to prevent OTHER kinds of crimes, that are actually serious on both legal and ethical grounds! But no, clearly the world will collapse and Americans will be systematically annihilated because Central American children suddenly become refugees.

[Blakk Metal]

My Theme Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSrTnWDTdwI

he cant evn b bein sirius

Of course he can't, Sirius is an inanimate object.

I don't care how much the US has to pay Central American child services, it is a bad idea for them to come unvetted into the US, even as slaves.

Please explain yourself, I'm really curious to hear this.

I got banned for trolling the last time I tried.

[Blekksprutia]

Please explain yourself, I'm really curious to hear this.

I got banned for trolling the last time I tried.

Maybe it's because you were trolling?
Also, then why did you bring it up if you didn't want to explain yourself?

Your argument is invalid. In so many ways

[Soldati Senza Confini]

he cant evn b bein sirius

Of course he can't, Sirius is an inanimate object.

Please explain yourself, I'm really curious to hear this.

I got banned for trolling the last time I tried.

Because, hey, you can't claim you're superior than me just because of my genetics or that I am a barbaric ape simply because of my genes.

[Freiheit Reich]

Immigration is OK if they are legal. My great grandparents LEGALLY entered the USA through Ellis Island. They followed the rules. Immigrants today should also follow the rules.

Asking people to follow the law is not racist (people like to overuse the race card here). I don't care if they are from Germany, Japan, Honduras, or Mexico. They need to follow the rules and show respect to the country they want to move to. They would expect the same from US citizens.

This is rich. Everyone likes to come about and go "Oh my parents entered the U.S. through ELLIS ISLAND! Look, it can totally be done you guys!"

Difference: Ellis Island is a tiny island, the Southern border isn't. That was in the late 1800s to the mid-1950s and, you know, immigration law is more broken than what it was back then. It certainly isn't as fucking simple as to come to the border and have the process done right there, sometimes it takes more than a decade. If your great grandparents were alive today, I doubt they'd have any luck entering into the U.S. in less than a year like it was back in the 1890s.

Laws changed but we are still expected to follow the laws as they are now. They were lucky, they came when it was easier but now it is harder.

If you want to follow 1890's laws, does that mean you support child labor as well. This was more acceptable back then. You are OK with the foreigners entering the USA ignoring some laws. Which laws can they choose to ignore and which do they have to follow?

That is why I proposed selling US citizenship for $500,000. This would make the process fast and ensure people that can financially support themselves would be the ones entering the USA. We should make it easier for the wealthy people to enter. We could reduce this requirement for those with certain university degrees. Educated people are more likely to improve society as well.

The children entering the USA illegally probably don't have a university degree or much money in the bank. They are likely poor and undereducated. The USA has enough poor people, we don't need more. Visit East St. Louis or Flint, Michigan if you don't believe this.

[Blekksprutia]

This is rich. Everyone likes to come about and go "Oh my parents entered the U.S. through ELLIS ISLAND! Look, it can totally be done you guys!"

Difference: Ellis Island is a tiny island, the Southern border isn't. That was in the late 1800s to the mid-1950s and, you know, immigration law is more broken than what it was back then. It certainly isn't as fucking simple as to come to the border and have the process done right there, sometimes it takes more than a decade. If your great grandparents were alive today, I doubt they'd have any luck entering into the U.S. in less than a year like it was back in the 1890s.

Laws changed but we are still expected to follow the laws as they are now.

Young children aren't and shouldn't be expected to fill out complicated forms so they know they can be safe. Non-Anglophone children really aren't. People are expected to do this thing called acting decently and not just say "OMGERD ILLEGAL ILLEGAL," meanwhile these people have basically been cheated out of their childhood and a huge chunk of their life and livelihood.

[Scomagia]

What some of these people are saying, both on and off NS, is really infuriating.

'Gee, how dare these kids try to escape a life of poverty, crime and turmoil and seek refuge in our huge country that could support them?'

Firstly, how can someone be so narrow-minded that they can't realize that America is completely made up of immigrants? How can someone be so cold and inhospitable to turn young, innocent refuge-seekers away at the border to go back to a life of hardship and turmoil, so disgustingly, abhorrently cruel that they can't even recognize that they're humans, no different from the kids you have at home, just that they were born in a different place? How is it an invasion when some of the invaders still need people to heat their formula? How dare someone refuse these young people the fundamental human right of a decent life when they've just gone through more hardship and struggle than your first-world mind could ever imagine?

How could you shut out these poor kids?

I don't hate people who don't want to let them in. I hate their attitudes. And I hope that they can change them before it's too late.

/endrant

Most of those people you are talking about are therefore immigrants (considering most of America is composed of immigrants). Immigrants who know the hardships of making a living in America without illegals leeching off the welfare system, or not paying their taxes.

Undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes, a fact I pointed out on the second page.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometax ... es-Too.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/1 ... 87378.html

They also don't "leech" welfare, because government assistance is only available to citizens and, I believe, permanent residents.

[Freiheit Reich]

We have poor kids too.

They're kids who have dragged their asses across unfathomably huge expanses of desert, gone through more hardship than our minds could really comprehend, just to have a good life and escape terrible hardship in their home country... they're braver and tougher than we could probably ever be. Who the hell are we to turn them away?

China and Laos have turned away North Korean refugees that illegally entered their nations and deported them knowing they would face jail or death but NS people are not complaining about that. Is it because those governments are communist or because it is fun to pick on the USA? Why does the USA always have to be the nice guy?

The USA is a teddy bear. We have too much compassion for our own good sometimes.

[Scomagia]

And language is a weird thing you go to school and learn how to say things properly.

You call someone a mescan it doesn't matter if you meant it joking or not, it is still derogatory. Calling someone "You illegal" is still derogatory, if you call someone "you faggot" is still derogatory, if you say "you nigger" is still derogatory.

Things may or may not be offensive depending on who you talk to, it doesn't make it less derogatory.

Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words can never hurt you. I don't care about feelings, I care about facts, words can't hurt anyone.

Words distort facts.

[Blakk Metal]

Of course he can't, Sirius is an inanimate object.

I got banned for trolling the last time I tried.

Because, hey, you can't claim you're superior than me just because of my genetics or that I am a barbaric ape simply because of my genes.

I never said that.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

This is rich. Everyone likes to come about and go "Oh my parents entered the U.S. through ELLIS ISLAND! Look, it can totally be done you guys!"

Difference: Ellis Island is a tiny island, the Southern border isn't. That was in the late 1800s to the mid-1950s and, you know, immigration law is more broken than what it was back then. It certainly isn't as fucking simple as to come to the border and have the process done right there, sometimes it takes more than a decade. If your great grandparents were alive today, I doubt they'd have any luck entering into the U.S. in less than a year like it was back in the 1890s.

Laws changed but we are still expected to follow the laws as they are now. They were lucky, they came when it was easier but now it is harder.

If you want to follow 1890's laws, does that mean you support child labor as well. This was more acceptable back then. You are OK with the foreigners entering the USA ignoring some laws. Which laws can they choose to ignore and which do they have to follow?

That is why I proposed selling US citizenship for $500,000. This would make the process fast and ensure people that can financially support themselves would be the ones entering the USA. We should make it easier for the wealthy people to enter. We could reduce this requirement for those with certain university degrees. Educated people are more likely to improve society as well.

The children entering the USA illegally probably don't have a university degree or much money in the bank. They are likely poor and undereducated. The USA has enough poor people, we don't need more. Visit East St. Louis or Flint, Michigan if you don't believe this.

I know poverty, I had to go to a school for homeless children to volunteer so I've seen it with my own eyes. Again, before you begin to make assumptions about me is best if you try and keep it neutral.

Also, no. Citizenship is an honor, not something we can sell easily. Your idea literally mocks every U.S. Naturalized Citizen ever.

Also, yes, but you know what else? They're coming here for a better life, much like your great-grandparents did. They just don't have the luck your grandparents did to just be able to go through a checkpoint.

And I never said it was okay for them to disrespect our laws, but at the same time getting rid of 11 million people is just insane. You can't possibly expect me to believe, with a serious face, that we can get rid of 11 million people plus God knows how many immigrant children without hurting ourselves in the process. That implies ignorance at a level that is more than usual for American society.

[Blekksprutia]

They're kids who have dragged their asses across unfathomably huge expanses of desert, gone through more hardship than our minds could really comprehend, just to have a good life and escape terrible hardship in their home country... they're braver and tougher than we could probably ever be. Who the hell are we to turn them away?

China and Laos have turned away North Korean refugees that illegally entered their nations and deported them knowing they would face jail or death but NS people are not complaining about that. Is it because those governments are communist or because it is fun to pick on the USA? Why does the USA always have to be the nice guy?

The USA is a teddy bear. We have too much compassion for our own good sometimes.

It's because there are almost no NS'ers from China or Laos. A lot of us are American. So it's closer to home.

"The USA is a nice guy, the USA is a teddy bear..." Nice people, DECENT people, don't turn away poor children. The USA isn't a person anyway. The USA is a country, made up out of people who are 99% descended of immigrants. The USA does not have too much compassion. It doesn't have enough. Some Americans are xenophobic, racist, control-freak, empathy-lacking maniacs who can't recognize that there are people who need help that aren't Americans.

The USA is a teddy bear with a chainsaw.

[Threayce]

They're kids who have dragged their asses across unfathomably huge expanses of desert, gone through more hardship than our minds could really comprehend, just to have a good life and escape terrible hardship in their home country... they're braver and tougher than we could probably ever be. Who the hell are we to turn them away?

China and Laos have turned away North Korean refugees that illegally entered their nations and deported them knowing they would face jail or death but NS people are not complaining about that. Is it because those governments are communist or because it is fun to pick on the USA? Why does the USA always have to be the nice guy?

The USA is a teddy bear. We have too much compassion for our own good sometimes.

Because China and Laos are such good examples of how to run a government.

Never mind the terrible living conditions, blatant disregard for human rights, and non existent worker's rights.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Because, hey, you can't claim you're superior than me just because of my genetics or that I am a barbaric ape simply because of my genes.

I never said that.

Not what I got from your argument.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

-snip-

You see, we poor people without a college degree aren't this homogeneous mass of suffering, social problems, lack of education and intellectual/creative void, much on the contrary, some of the countries with comparatively a rather lack of capital resources and poor wealth distribution often home very innovative people, including those originated from the unusual income brackets (this is the case of my native Brazil and our ethnolinguistic cousin Portugal).

If anything, place the blame on how America became a corporate elitist dystopia that neglects people without a shadow of empathy just like you are arguing for now.

[Blekksprutia]

If anything, place the blame on how America became a corporate elitist dystopia that neglects people without a shadow of empathy just like you are arguing for now.

^^^

(it's not exactly dystopic, I think though... I mean I live here and it's pretty nice, but that's just cause I'm from a fairly well off family)

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Words distort facts.

In greater depth, words are the source for some 99% if only that of the basis of our subjective view and understanding of what surrounds us.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

They're kids who have dragged their asses across unfathomably huge expanses of desert, gone through more hardship than our minds could really comprehend, just to have a good life and escape terrible hardship in their home country... they're braver and tougher than we could probably ever be. Who the hell are we to turn them away?

China and Laos have turned away North Korean refugees that illegally entered their nations and deported them knowing they would face jail or death but NS people are not complaining about that. Is it because those governments are communist or because it is fun to pick on the USA? Why does the USA always have to be the nice guy?

The USA is a teddy bear. We have too much compassion for our own good sometimes.

No.

As an immigrant I can tell you you are full of shit. Americans claim to be compassionate and a teddy bear, and the world from the outside looks at you that way, but in reality, some of you guys are more racist, xenophobic, and generally ignorant of the world around you than you care to admit; and when someone points you wrong you tend to draw back to your own little subjectivity box and paranoia.

You're not teddy bears, more like wolves dressed like sheep from where I'm standing.

Also, we're not fucking talking about China, we're talking about the U.S.

[Blekksprutia]

To anybody who's not American and reading these posts:

I assure you that we're not all insane. The insane ones are just the loudest.

[Threayce]

To anybody who's not American and reading these posts:

I assure you that we're not all insane. The insane ones are just the loudest.

So much this.

[Freiheit Reich]

Laws changed but we are still expected to follow the laws as they are now.

Young children aren't and shouldn't be expected to fill out complicated forms so they know they can be safe. Non-Anglophone children really aren't. People are expected to do this thing called acting decently and not just say "OMGERD ILLEGAL ILLEGAL," meanwhile these people have basically been cheated out of their childhood and a huge chunk of their life and livelihood.

Imagine if the USA accepted 2 billion very poor people in the world in the next few years? The USA lifestyle would collapse. We would face overcrowded slums and couldn't financially support such a massive influx of poverty. What you want is to make the US legal citizens face a lower quality of life in order to make you feel good.

This is what the USA will look like if we continue to ignore illegal immigration:

http://artsytime.com/life-in-slums-of-mumbai/

[ShadowDragons]

It's not an issue of whether or not we want to help the kids, it's that we can't. Millions of poor people would jump at the chance to come to our country, but it would crush our health and education system, and cause huge amounts of crime and diseases. It would destroy what they came here for. Let those in who will work hard, stay out of crime, and push our country forward come in. But, we need to set up a simple path to becoming a citizen. Illegal immigration crushes us, but legal immigration is what we are founded upon.