Surge 2014: A debate on Illegal Immigration and US Policies.

[Fireye]

You can use "illegal alien". It is dehumanizing however when you just shorten it to "illegal".

Hopefully you understand the difference in wording.

Precisely, because the word "illegals" by itself implies that their existence itself is illegal, which is not as pejoritive as it is inaccurate, making the user of the term appear uneducated and uninformed (but it is still pejorative as well).

Bullshit. You're projecting.

Shortening "illegal alien(s)" to "illegal(s)" is not done to dehumanize, it's done in speech to HALVE the number of syllables said (6>3) and in type to HALVE the number of characters typed (14>7).

"Illegal(s)" is a shorthand. It is the shorthand because that's what makes the Illegal aliens different from legal aliens. if the difference were that they wore clown shoes, the shorthand would probably be "Clown Shoes." (Always plural because shoes come in a set)

You remind me of my mother when she would admonish me over using pronouns to refer to my teachers. "Not she, Ms. [so-and-so]."

[Freiheit Reich]

Farmers managed to pick fruit 100 years ago with little Mexican labor. Are Americans too stupid to know how to pick fruit these days? We don't need Mexicans to pick fruit. The wages would be well over $3 a day, even if minimum wage rules were ended (I am against the minimum wage laws).

Prisoners could be hired out to farmers to pick fruit with some of the wages going to their upkeep and some going to their victims (let them keep 15-20% though as incentive to work).

Yea, why don't we just also put guards in the farms? Those who want to leave their jobs, we shoot them on sight, no questions asked.

Prisoners could volunteer for the jobs. Many would volunteer because they would get fresh air and about $0.50-1 per hour which could be used to buy snacks and other goodies. If they are trying to escape-shoot them.

Your post is ridiculous. The USA did not need Mexican labor until recent years. How many Latin Americans were picking fruit in Maine or in Ohio in 1920? I am sure there were a couple but not many. If we didn't need to import them in that year, why do we need them now?

A solution is to give back the land we stole from Mexico during the war (we could get an agreement to ensure legal US citizens there would get duel citizenship). As a former co-worker said, 'we are just taking back the land stolen from us.' In a way, I agree with him.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

-snip-

We don't give a fuck about etymology.

If Romani people want to be Romani and not gypsy, you respect them. If gay people want to be gay and not sodomites, you respect them. If black people want to be black and not Negroes, you respect them.

It is widely known that illegal immigrant is an unfairly hated category of people who suffer dehumanization. Then you respect their protagonism in how they want to be respected, above citizens or not, human beings - and that enjoy the same Constitutional rights you do, mind you.

End of story.

[Kiruri]

-snip-

We don't give a fuck about etymology.

If Romani people want to be Romani and not gypsy, you respect them. If gay people want to be gay and not sodomites, you respect them. If black people want to be black and not Negroes, you respect them.

It is widely known that illegal immigrant is an unfairly hated category of people who suffer dehumanization. Then you respect their protagonism in how they want to be respected, above citizens or not, human beings - and that enjoy the same Constitutional rights you do, mind you.

End of story.

Exactly! This all the way. Call the group of people what they desire to be called. How's that hard to understand?

[Kiruri]

I see, so what you're saying is that we need a simplification of the process?

It also sounds to me that taking some military action and restoring order to Central America would curb illegal immigration.

Many of Central America's problems were worsened by American support of Cold War dictatorships. They won't be happy with intervention.

Perhaps you're right, but "they" will be quite happy with help in solving the crisis right at the root of it all. Many Central American governments are petitioning the US for more help within their own nations.

[Blakk Metal]

-snip-

We don't give a fuck about etymology.

If Romani people want to be Romani and not gypsy, you respect them. If gay people want to be gay and not sodomites, you respect them. If black people want to be black and not Negroes, you respect them.

It is widely known that illegal immigrant is an unfairly hated category of people who suffer dehumanization. Then you respect their protagonism in how they want to be respected, above citizens or not, human beings - and that enjoy the same Constitutional rights you do, mind you.

End of story.

No one is obliged to respect your feelings.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

No one is obliged to respect your feelings.

Well, legally so, indeed, but if I want this entire website to stop calling me a "he" because I feel like "they" is more proper tomorrow and make this clear to people addressing me, that will be it. Because we are in a social space supposed to have basic politeness rules. If you violate this, I'm not forced to just watch such a thing passively.

[Blekksprutia]

What some of these people are saying, both on and off NS, is really infuriating.

'Gee, how dare these kids try to escape a life of poverty, crime and turmoil and seek refuge in our huge country that could support them?'

Firstly, how can someone be so narrow-minded that they can't realize that America is completely made up of immigrants? How can someone be so cold and inhospitable to turn young, innocent refuge-seekers away at the border to go back to a life of hardship and turmoil, so disgustingly, abhorrently cruel that they can't even recognize that they're humans, no different from the kids you have at home, just that they were born in a different place? How is it an invasion when some of the invaders still need their formula heated? How dare someone refuse these young people the fundamental human right of a decent life when they've just gone through more hardship and struggle than your first-world mind could ever imagine?

How could you shut them out?

I don't hate people who don't want to let them in. I hate their attitudes. And I hope that they can change them before it's too late.

/endrant

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

-snip-

You were wonderful. Couldn't've said it better.

[Blekksprutia]

-snip-

You were wonderful. Couldn't've said it better.

Thanks, man

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yea, why don't we just also put guards in the farms? Those who want to leave their jobs, we shoot them on sight, no questions asked.

Prisoners could volunteer for the jobs. Many would volunteer because they would get fresh air and about $0.50-1 per hour which could be used to buy snacks and other goodies. If they are trying to escape-shoot them.

Your post is ridiculous. The USA did not need Mexican labor until recent years. How many Latin Americans were picking fruit in Maine or in Ohio in 1920? I am sure there were a couple but not many. If we didn't need to import them in that year, why do we need them now?

A solution is to give back the land we stole from Mexico during the war (we could get an agreement to ensure legal US citizens there would get duel citizenship). As a former co-worker said, 'we are just taking back the land stolen from us.' In a way, I agree with him.

Now you know how your posts read to me.

Also, nah, they don't need the money; clearly if prisoners are working we should break their backs until they try to escape. Make their life as miserable as possible and then, if they attempt to leave, we shoot them.

I mean, you were doing fine in the competition of "most awful ideas"; what stopped you now? Because they are Americans now you suddenly have a heart?

[ShadowDragons]

Try to hunt down the human smugglers and coyotes. Also fine families who sent their children here. If they came on their accord just send them back. Also use drones to patrol and survey the border if they see anyone send some rangers to intercept them. This makes it risky on everyone trying to get here illegally.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Precisely, because the word "illegals" by itself implies that their existence itself is illegal, which is not as pejoritive as it is inaccurate, making the user of the term appear uneducated and uninformed (but it is still pejorative as well).

Bullshit. You're projecting.

Shortening "illegal alien(s)" to "illegal(s)" is not done to dehumanize, it's done in speech to HALVE the number of syllables said (6>3) and in type to HALVE the number of characters typed (14>7).

"Illegal(s)" is a shorthand. It is the shorthand because that's what makes the Illegal aliens different from legal aliens. if the difference were that they wore clown shoes, the shorthand would probably be "Clown Shoes." (Always plural because shoes come in a set)

You remind me of my mother when she would admonish me over using pronouns to refer to my teachers. "Not she, Ms. [so-and-so]."

It is STILL derogatory. It'd also mean you get to call me "mescan" simply because "Mexican" is too fucking complicated for you.

Yea, try that on the street by the way, see how quickly you get looks and someone might bust your lip because of how racist you sound. Words and how you say them have a meaning, and "illegals" have a different meaning than "illegal immigrants".

[Spoder]

What some of these people are saying, both on and off NS, is really infuriating.

'Gee, how dare these kids try to escape a life of poverty, crime and turmoil and seek refuge in our huge country that could support them?'

Firstly, how can someone be so narrow-minded that they can't realize that America is completely made up of immigrants? How can someone be so cold and inhospitable to turn young, innocent refuge-seekers away at the border to go back to a life of hardship and turmoil, so disgustingly, abhorrently cruel that they can't even recognize that they're humans, no different from the kids you have at home, just that they were born in a different place? How is it an invasion when some of the invaders still need people to heat their formula? How dare someone refuse these young people the fundamental human right of a decent life when they've just gone through more hardship and struggle than your first-world mind could ever imagine?

How could you shut out these poor kids?

I don't hate people who don't want to let them in. I hate their attitudes. And I hope that they can change them before it's too late.

/endrant

Most of those people you are talking about are therefore immigrants (considering most of America is composed of immigrants). Immigrants who know the hardships of making a living in America without illegals leeching off the welfare system, or not paying their taxes.

[ShadowDragons]

We also need to make a clear path to citizenship. It should be, get checked for diseases, have a job lined up, and follow the law. Do this for the next 5 years and your a citizen. Also maybe shorten the wait time by a year if they pass a test on our language, history, and customs.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Try to hunt down the human smugglers and coyotes. Also fine families who sent their children here. If they came on their accord just send them back. Also use drones to patrol and survey the border if they see anyone send some rangers to intercept them. This makes it risky on everyone trying to get here illegally.

I got a better idea: let's just use those drones to invade the border towns and other shitholes. If we see an inhabited municipal dump, intercept it and kill everyone in there. Surely our efforts will be appreciated at cutting the problem from the root.

Using a drone is a bad idea, mostly because drones are used for military purposes; to repurpose a military tool into a civilian one is careful and a piece of engineering.

[Freiheit Reich]

What some of these people are saying, both on and off NS, is really infuriating.

'Gee, how dare these kids try to escape a life of poverty, crime and turmoil and seek refuge in our huge country that could support them?'

Firstly, how can someone be so narrow-minded that they can't realize that America is completely made up of immigrants? How can someone be so cold and inhospitable to turn young, innocent refuge-seekers away at the border to go back to a life of hardship and turmoil, so disgustingly, abhorrently cruel that they can't even recognize that they're humans, no different from the kids you have at home, just that they were born in a different place? How is it an invasion when some of the invaders still need their formula heated? How dare someone refuse these young people the fundamental human right of a decent life when they've just gone through more hardship and struggle than your first-world mind could ever imagine?

How could you shut them out?

I don't hate people who don't want to let them in. I hate their attitudes. And I hope that they can change them before it's too late.

/endrant

Immigration is OK if they are legal. My great grandparents LEGALLY entered the USA through Ellis Island. They followed the rules. Immigrants today should also follow the rules.

Asking people to follow the law is not racist (people like to overuse the race card here). I don't care if they are from Germany, Japan, Honduras, or Mexico. They need to follow the rules and show respect to the country they want to move to. They would expect the same from US citizens.

[ShadowDragons]

Bullshit. You're projecting.

Shortening "illegal alien(s)" to "illegal(s)" is not done to dehumanize, it's done in speech to HALVE the number of syllables said (6>3) and in type to HALVE the number of characters typed (14>7).

"Illegal(s)" is a shorthand. It is the shorthand because that's what makes the Illegal aliens different from legal aliens. if the difference were that they wore clown shoes, the shorthand would probably be "Clown Shoes." (Always plural because shoes come in a set)

You remind me of my mother when she would admonish me over using pronouns to refer to my teachers. "Not she, Ms. [so-and-so]."

It is STILL derogatory. It'd also mean you get to call me "mescan" simply because "Mexican" is too fucking complicated for you.

Yea, try that on the street by the way, see how quickly you get looks and someone might bust your lip because of how racist you sound. Words and how you say them have a meaning, and "illegals" have a different meaning than "illegal immigrants".

People choose to be insulted by certain words, just like people choose to say those words. Really it's just how you use the word. If you yell it, it's insulting. Language is a weird thing and you can't tell people the correct way to say things.

[Blekksprutia]

What some of these people are saying, both on and off NS, is really infuriating.

'Gee, how dare these kids try to escape a life of poverty, crime and turmoil and seek refuge in our huge country that could support them?'

Firstly, how can someone be so narrow-minded that they can't realize that America is completely made up of immigrants? How can someone be so cold and inhospitable to turn young, innocent refuge-seekers away at the border to go back to a life of hardship and turmoil, so disgustingly, abhorrently cruel that they can't even recognize that they're humans, no different from the kids you have at home, just that they were born in a different place? How is it an invasion when some of the invaders still need their formula heated? How dare someone refuse these young people the fundamental human right of a decent life when they've just gone through more hardship and struggle than your first-world mind could ever imagine?

How could you shut them out?

I don't hate people who don't want to let them in. I hate their attitudes. And I hope that they can change them before it's too late.

/endrant

Immigration is OK if they are legal. My great grandparents LEGALLY entered the USA through Ellis Island. They followed the rules. Immigrants today should also follow the rules.

Asking people to follow the law is not racist (people like to overuse the race card here). I don't care if they are from Germany, Japan, Honduras, or Mexico. They need to follow the rules and show respect to the country they want to move to. They would expect the same from US citizens.

...you do realize these are children.
You can't say to a non-English speaking young child, "If you're entering America from this country, fill out this form, if you have skills that would be valuable fill out this form, and then fill out this form and we'll get back to you in a month."

[Blekksprutia]

It is STILL derogatory. It'd also mean you get to call me "mescan" simply because "Mexican" is too fucking complicated for you.

Yea, try that on the street by the way, see how quickly you get looks and someone might bust your lip because of how racist you sound. Words and how you say them have a meaning, and "illegals" have a different meaning than "illegal immigrants".

People choose to be insulted by certain words, just like people choose to say those words. Really it's just how you use the word. If you yell it, it's insulting. Language is a weird thing and you can't tell people the correct way to say things.

...so if I just mutter the 'n' word, it's ok?

[ShadowDragons]

Try to hunt down the human smugglers and coyotes. Also fine families who sent their children here. If they came on their accord just send them back. Also use drones to patrol and survey the border if they see anyone send some rangers to intercept them. This makes it risky on everyone trying to get here illegally.

I got a better idea: let's just use those drones to invade the border towns and other shitholes. If we see an inhabited municipal dump, intercept it and kill everyone in there. Surely our efforts will be appreciated at cutting the problem from the root.

Using a drone is a bad idea, mostly because drones are used for military purposes; to repurpose a military tool into a civilian one is careful and a piece of engineering.

Most drones are for surveillance, and those are the ones we should use. I agree, using predator drones would just be ridiculous.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

People choose to be insulted by certain words, just like people choose to say those words. Really it's just how you use the word. If you yell it, it's insulting. Language is a weird thing and you can't tell people the correct way to say things.

And language is a weird thing you go to school and learn how to say things properly.

You call someone a mescan it doesn't matter if you meant it joking or not, it is still derogatory. Calling someone "You illegal" is still derogatory, if you call someone "you faggot" is still derogatory, if you say "you nigger" is still derogatory.

Things may or may not be offensive depending on who you talk to, it doesn't make it less derogatory.

[ShadowDragons]

People choose to be insulted by certain words, just like people choose to say those words. Really it's just how you use the word. If you yell it, it's insulting. Language is a weird thing and you can't tell people the correct way to say things.

...so if I just mutter the 'n' word, it's ok?

I don't care, although the mods might not like it. That word was used all the time when I was young ( the 70's) and that just shows how our language changes.

[Blekksprutia]

...so if I just mutter the 'n' word, it's ok?

I don't care, although the mods might not like it. That word was used all the time when I was young ( the 70's) and that just shows how our language changes.

Perhaps it's just my opinion, but if you speak hate softly, you're still speaking hate...

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

People choose to be insulted by certain words, just like people choose to say those words. Really it's just how you use the word. If you yell it, it's insulting. Language is a weird thing and you can't tell people the correct way to say things.

Illegal is used in the same sense and intensity people would have used wetback a few years ago. Notice how they both have the same connotation, adding to the fact that illegal actually actively dehumanizes people through painting them under the widely-repulsed label of "criminal".