Surge 2014: A debate on Illegal Immigration and US Policies.

[Rio Cana]

Seems the Guatemalan and Mexican government are coming to the rescue of the US.

Over a week ago both the President of Guatemala and Mexico talked about launching a program called "Frontera Sur" (Southern Border). Its aim is to better secure the border crossings between both nations. Also, for Mexico to give temporary Visas to Guatemalans to work in the Southern Mexican states near Guatemala. Remember, all Central Americans that go to the US via land must go via Guatemala and then Mexico.

This is an internet newsstory on it but its in Spanish but it shows the people and kids who were going to the US.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79aJMRzaPDY

This is a short article in English which mentions it
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication ... ontera-sur

[Gig em Aggies]

Seems the Guatemalan and Mexican government are coming to the rescue of the US.

Over a week ago both the President of Guatemala and Mexico talked about launching a program called "Frontera Sur" (Southern Border). Its aim is to better secure the border crossings between both nations. Also, for Mexico to give temporary Visas to Guatemalans to work in the Southern Mexican states near Guatemala. Remember, all Central Americans that go to the US via land must go via Guatemala and then Mexico.

This is an internet newsstory on it but its in Spanish but it shows the people and kids who were going to the US.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79aJMRzaPDY

This is a short article in English which mentions it
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication ... ontera-sur

This is how we can really secure our boarders.
1. Help nations down south with boarder security.
2. Create jobs that can give people more money without joining the cartels
3. Reduce cartels influence amount the poor

And then maybe we will start to really curb the tide of illegal immigration across the US Boarder

[Arkinesia]

They broke the law, and since they are illegal aliens, the Constitution doesn't apply to them. Only to taxpaying American citizens.

False

American Permanent Residents have Constitutional Rights
Worker Visa Holders have Constitutional Rights
Student Visa Holders have Constitutional Rights
TPS Visa Holders have Constitutional Rights
Refugees have Constitutional Rights
Illegal Immigrants don't have Constitutional Rights but Human Rights which are established by International Law; also, arguably, since they are now in the jurisdiction of the U.S. they are subject to obey the laws of the land, and that also means upholding the Constitution, which gives them the rights of said document.

Try harder to conceal your xenophobic bullshit.

Existing SCOTUS precedent states that constitutional rights apply to anyone in the territory of the United States of America.

[Scomagia]

Gotta love the clever use of the term "Surge", particularly after the regular use of the word during both the Iraq war and the war in Afghanistan.

[Arkinesia]

Seems the Guatemalan and Mexican government are coming to the rescue of the US.

Over a week ago both the President of Guatemala and Mexico talked about launching a program called "Frontera Sur" (Southern Border). Its aim is to better secure the border crossings between both nations. Also, for Mexico to give temporary Visas to Guatemalans to work in the Southern Mexican states near Guatemala. Remember, all Central Americans that go to the US via land must go via Guatemala and then Mexico.

This is an internet newsstory on it but its in Spanish but it shows the people and kids who were going to the US.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79aJMRzaPDY

This is a short article in English which mentions it
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication ... ontera-sur

This is how we can really secure our boarders.
1. Help nations down south with boarder security.
2. Create jobs that can give people more money without joining the cartels
3. Reduce cartels influence amount the poor

And then maybe we will start to really curb the tide of illegal immigration across the US Boarder

One thing that would help with border security is if native English speakers could start figuring out how the word “border” is spelled.

Another helpful thing would be to specify exactly how any of these proposals would look.

[The New Sea Territory]

There is nothing wrong with crossing a nonexistent line that is forced onto people by a regional monopoly of violence.

What world do you live in? A fantasy one?

National Borders are arbitrarily drawn on maps and enforced by the state monopoly of violence. That is objectively true. Whether you support forcing people to not cross lines or not is the issue here.

I'm saying that crossing the arbitrary state line is completely fine.

[Kraciva]

What world do you live in? A fantasy one?

National Borders are arbitrarily drawn on maps and enforced by the state monopoly of violence. That is objectively true. Whether you support forcing people to not cross lines or not is the issue here.

I'm saying that crossing the arbitrary state line is completely fine.

I was just at a round table today where there were NGOs and nonprofits from Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. Apparently many indigenous peoples in the area don't understand the concept of borders and face greater discrimination than other Central American migrants. So NST isn't entirely wrong to think that.

[United States of The One Percent]

Unaccompanied children can come here and go through the system legally?

While things have changed since I used to work granting visas to immigrants and visitors to the U.S. -- I recently heard that an alien spouse of a U.S. citizen had to reside overseas for ten years before gaining citizenship -- it used to be the case that one could "adjust status" while living in the U.S.

Permission to revise and extend my remarks.

In 1996 Congress passed and President Clinton signed an immigration bill providing that aliens who had come as undocumented migrants to the US needed to remain outside the US for 10 years before being admitted as legal migrants. Apparently, either this couple couldn't adjust status or decided to spend some time outside the country for other reasons. The Obama Administration managed to get this changed last year, so we no longer have ridiculous results such as the spouse of a US citizen not being able to live here.

[Thalsyer]

Why has 57,000 unaccompanied children suddenly appeared in the US within the last year? Anyone think it's suspicious or coincidental? They may be refugees from the Mexican drug war. A sign that we should intervene down there? It would be a better use of our troops than sending them to the middle east because it would affect us more at home.

[Kraciva]

Why has 57,000 unaccompanied children suddenly appeared in the US within the last year? Anyone think it's suspicious or coincidental? They may be refugees from the Mexican drug war. A sign that we should intervene down there? It would be a better use of our troops than sending them to the middle east because it would affect us more at home.

Its not like it was a sudden thing. This has been going on for a few years now. I think a couple of years ago the number of children intercepted at the border was in the 20,000s. Its been getting bigger gradually due to a number of issues. You did touch on one of the problems with the Mexican drug war, but that isn't it. Many of these children that have been interviewed by humanitarian groups and immigration courts say that they are afraid of gang violence in their home countries. In Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador, the gangs are perhaps the most powerful group there. If they come to a kid and say "We want you to join our gang" or "I think you're pretty, you're going to be a gift to the gang (i.e. forced to perform sexual favors)," many kids say no. The gangs down there are vicious. They've executed kids in cold blood simply for refusing to join them. That coupled with lack of economic opportunity, widespread corruption, domestic violence, sexual abuse, and for some, racial discrimination are huge factors. Another is that quite simply, they want to be reunified with any family members in the States.

[Salus Maior]

We really need to crack down on the illegal immigration problem. And send those who haven't crossed over legally back where they came from. Its a matter of security.

I'm not anti-immigration, far from it. I support any Mexican or whoever who wants to immigrate to the US, as long as they respect our laws and do it legally. While I realize a lot of illegal immigrants are just innocent people trying to find asylum away from the insanity that's Mexico, there's no way to ensure ALL those people are decent folk if we just hand out amnesty. And if we just leave our borders wide open, that's just making things easier for the people who hate us to infiltrate our country.'

For the sake of our security, we've gotta tighten up border control and throw whoever crosses illegally back where they came from.

[Great Argonia]

I don't want to appear racist, but it helps the economy when people work for a larger salary >.>

It also helps when you have a large amount of unskilled workiers that will do labor jobs (such as factory, agricultural, etc) for cheap.

[Kraciva]

We really need to crack down on the illegal immigration problem. And send those who haven't crossed over legally back where they came from. Its a matter of security.

I'm not anti-immigration, far from it. I support any Mexican or whoever who wants to immigrate to the US, as long as they respect our laws and do it legally. While I realize a lot of illegal immigrants are just innocent people trying to find asylum away from the insanity that's Mexico, there's no way to ensure ALL those people are decent folk if we just hand out amnesty. And if we just leave our borders wide open, that's just making things easier for the people who hate us to infiltrate our country.'

For the sake of our security, we've gotta tighten up border control and throw whoever crosses illegally back where they came from.

I'm glad you brought this up just now. First thing is first, doing that without considering all of the cases will make the problem much worse. Most of the people trying to migrate to the U.S. are doing so because of the violence, mostly because they and/or a family member has been targeted by the gangs. You say they should immigrate legally. That sounds all well and good, until you look at the process. If I am someone living in Honduras or southern Mexico or anywhere where gang activity is rampant and I decide to do it that way...I could be dead by the time they even consider my application. And then they could go after my family. There are quotas that limit immigration from Central America, so legal immigration is not a viable option for most of these people. "Alright," you might say, "so why don't they apply for asylum or refugee status?" Again, its about the process. The asylum proceedings are long and arduous, requires an expensive lawyer and many officials who deal with asylum cases view threats of gang activity as not being a viable reason for seeking asylum. Refugee status is the same thing.

So when you suggest throwing them back to where they came from, you are increasing the chances that they and their families will face threats, torture, and even death.

[Salus Maior]

I'm glad you brought this up just now. First thing is first, doing that without considering all of the cases will make the problem much worse. Most of the people trying to migrate to the U.S. are doing so because of the violence, mostly because they and/or a family member has been targeted by the gangs. You say they should immigrate legally. That sounds all well and good, until you look at the process. If I am someone living in Honduras or southern Mexico or anywhere where gang activity is rampant and I decide to do it that way...I could be dead by the time they even consider my application. And then they could go after my family. There are quotas that limit immigration from Central America, so legal immigration is not a viable option for most of these people. "Alright," you might say, "so why don't they apply for asylum or refugee status?" Again, its about the process. The asylum proceedings are long and arduous, requires an expensive lawyer and many officials who deal with asylum cases view threats of gang activity as not being a viable reason for seeking asylum. Refugee status is the same thing.

So when you suggest throwing them back to where they came from, you are increasing the chances that they and their families will face threats, torture, and even death.

I see, so what you're saying is that we need a simplification of the process?

It also sounds to me that taking some military action and restoring order to Central America would curb illegal immigration.

[Kraciva]

I'm glad you brought this up just now. First thing is first, doing that without considering all of the cases will make the problem much worse. Most of the people trying to migrate to the U.S. are doing so because of the violence, mostly because they and/or a family member has been targeted by the gangs. You say they should immigrate legally. That sounds all well and good, until you look at the process. If I am someone living in Honduras or southern Mexico or anywhere where gang activity is rampant and I decide to do it that way...I could be dead by the time they even consider my application. And then they could go after my family. There are quotas that limit immigration from Central America, so legal immigration is not a viable option for most of these people. "Alright," you might say, "so why don't they apply for asylum or refugee status?" Again, its about the process. The asylum proceedings are long and arduous, requires an expensive lawyer and many officials who deal with asylum cases view threats of gang activity as not being a viable reason for seeking asylum. Refugee status is the same thing.

So when you suggest throwing them back to where they came from, you are increasing the chances that they and their families will face threats, torture, and even death.

I see, so what you're saying is that we need a simplification of the process?

It also sounds to me that taking some military action and restoring order to Central America would curb illegal immigration.

Military action has been tried and failed. What one needs is to make plenty of economic opportunities. This would be a long-term investment, but one that, yes, would take down most of the causes of illegal immigration: you give opportunities to citizens besides gang jobs, you give them economic security in their home country so they don't have to look for it 1,500 miles away, and you make the whole country's economy stable. Simplification of the process and either increasing the number of Central Americans allowed to immigrate or getting rid of that quota would help as well. In fact, here are six other viable solutions that my organization handed to all 475 535 Members of Congress:
The 6 solutions are on the second page of the PDF, but the rest of the info is useful:
http://www.refugees.org/assets/images/our-work/uac-flyer.pdf
And here is the full report:
http://www.refugees.org/assets/images/our-work/uscri-full-uac-solutions.pdf

EDIT: I meant 535, I was very tired

[United Christian]

These illegals need to be sent right back where they came from. Lots of them come over here with diseases that the US is not capable of handling because we've never had it

Hold up wait a second if you want to send illegal immigrants back to where they came from you would have to send more than 80% of americans back where their ancestors came from and return the land back to the natives like be realistic you republicans and conservatives need to wake up most of the people in this country are illegals.

[New Bierstaat]

I see, so what you're saying is that we need a simplification of the process?

It also sounds to me that taking some military action and restoring order to Central America would curb illegal immigration.

Military action has been tried and failed. What one needs is to make plenty of economic opportunities. This would be a long-term investment, but one that, yes, would take down most of the causes of illegal immigration: you give opportunities to citizens besides gang jobs, you give them economic security in their home country so they don't have to look for it 1,500 miles away, and you make the whole country's economy stable. Simplification of the process and either increasing the number of Central Americans allowed to immigrate or getting rid of that quota would help as well. In fact, here are six other viable solutions that my organization handed to all 475 Members of Congress:
The 6 solutions are on the second page of the PDF, but the rest of the info is useful:
http://www.refugees.org/assets/images/our-work/uac-flyer.pdf
And here is the full report:
http://www.refugees.org/assets/images/our-work/uscri-full-uac-solutions.pdf

There are 535 members of Congress.

[Kraciva]

Military action has been tried and failed. What one needs is to make plenty of economic opportunities. This would be a long-term investment, but one that, yes, would take down most of the causes of illegal immigration: you give opportunities to citizens besides gang jobs, you give them economic security in their home country so they don't have to look for it 1,500 miles away, and you make the whole country's economy stable. Simplification of the process and either increasing the number of Central Americans allowed to immigrate or getting rid of that quota would help as well. In fact, here are six other viable solutions that my organization handed to all 475 Members of Congress:
The 6 solutions are on the second page of the PDF, but the rest of the info is useful:
http://www.refugees.org/assets/images/our-work/uac-flyer.pdf
And here is the full report:
http://www.refugees.org/assets/images/our-work/uscri-full-uac-solutions.pdf

There are 535 members of Congress.

Oh goodness, I'm sorry. I've been at work all day and just got home, I'm afraid I'm not at my best

[Great Argonia]

These illegals need to be sent right back where they came from. Lots of them come over here with diseases that the US is not capable of handling because we've never had it

Hold up wait a second if you want to send illegal immigrants back to where they came from you would have to send more than 80% of americans back where their ancestors came from and return the land back to the natives like be realistic you republicans and conservatives need to wake up most of the people in this country are illegals.

Well actually, in this country no, back when the natives had control yes.

[New Bierstaat]

There are 535 members of Congress.

Oh goodness, I'm sorry. I've been at work all day and just got home, I'm afraid I'm not at my best

It's all right. I'm just trying to help out a fellow NSG Senator!

[Geilinor]

Gotta love the clever use of the term "Surge", particularly after the regular use of the word during both the Iraq war and the war in Afghanistan.

It's completely intentional. We have people calling this an "existential threat".

[Geilinor]

I'm glad you brought this up just now. First thing is first, doing that without considering all of the cases will make the problem much worse. Most of the people trying to migrate to the U.S. are doing so because of the violence, mostly because they and/or a family member has been targeted by the gangs. You say they should immigrate legally. That sounds all well and good, until you look at the process. If I am someone living in Honduras or southern Mexico or anywhere where gang activity is rampant and I decide to do it that way...I could be dead by the time they even consider my application. And then they could go after my family. There are quotas that limit immigration from Central America, so legal immigration is not a viable option for most of these people. "Alright," you might say, "so why don't they apply for asylum or refugee status?" Again, its about the process. The asylum proceedings are long and arduous, requires an expensive lawyer and many officials who deal with asylum cases view threats of gang activity as not being a viable reason for seeking asylum. Refugee status is the same thing.

So when you suggest throwing them back to where they came from, you are increasing the chances that they and their families will face threats, torture, and even death.

I see, so what you're saying is that we need a simplification of the process?

It also sounds to me that taking some military action and restoring order to Central America would curb illegal immigration.

Many of Central America's problems were worsened by American support of Cold War dictatorships. They won't be happy with intervention.

[Freiheit Reich]

I say kick out all the Mexicans and find some american citizens that will work picking fruit for $3 a day.

Farmers managed to pick fruit 100 years ago with little Mexican labor. Are Americans too stupid to know how to pick fruit these days? We don't need Mexicans to pick fruit. The wages would be well over $3 a day, even if minimum wage rules were ended (I am against the minimum wage laws).

Prisoners could be hired out to farmers to pick fruit with some of the wages going to their upkeep and some going to their victims (let them keep 15-20% though as incentive to work).

[Salus Maior]

I see, so what you're saying is that we need a simplification of the process?

It also sounds to me that taking some military action and restoring order to Central America would curb illegal immigration.

Many of Central America's problems were worsened by American support of Cold War dictatorships. They won't be happy with intervention.

Neither are the Arabs, but hey, we're suddenly all concerned for them.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I say kick out all the Mexicans and find some american citizens that will work picking fruit for $3 a day.

Farmers managed to pick fruit 100 years ago with little Mexican labor. Are Americans too stupid to know how to pick fruit these days? We don't need Mexicans to pick fruit. The wages would be well over $3 a day, even if minimum wage rules were ended (I am against the minimum wage laws).

Prisoners could be hired out to farmers to pick fruit with some of the wages going to their upkeep and some going to their victims (let them keep 15-20% though as incentive to work).

Yea, why don't we just also put guards in the farms? Those who want to leave their jobs, we shoot them on sight, no questions asked.