SWAT flashbang versus an infants face

[Scomagia]

Boy, it's a good thing I never claimed they were.

Goat, it's a good thing I never said you did.

That made me smile.

[Viritica]

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

So, yeah. Again, your powers of perception suck.

Well. None of the information except the minivan in the driveway.

While conducting a raid, I doubt focusing on the minivan's bumper stickers is a priority.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Goat, it's a good thing I never said you did.

That made me smile.

Glad I could return the favor, as I've been smiling for some time now.

[Ifreann]

Strange thing to say, when people have been claiming that this use of a flashbang was SOP. So they did have a plan for what to do if they couldn't get in the door. It just didn't include finding out what's there before throwing in a flashbang.

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

Did I say they should have planned for there being a baby behind the door? No. I didn't. I suggested that they should have planned for trying to find out what was there.

[Shark pond]

Like any tool, they absolutely can be in certain situations, as even on a good day they are not a magic cure all.

Boy, it's a good thing I never claimed they were.

And what if they had a red zone or several?

Then it's even fucking better that they used the fiber optic because they know the room has potential hostiles.

so a fiber optic will magically reveal that a hallway, which may have cabinets on the sides, stuff in front of the door (as was the case here) or even doors to other rooms which can be opened the moment someone hears the police bashing open the door, is completely free of any guards and it will be safe when they try to open the door even if it's barricaded?
since that's what this reads like to me. a minicam helps, but it's by no means failproof.

[Scomagia]

That made me smile.

Glad I could return the favor, as I've been smiling for some time now.

For a much different reason, I imagine.

[Viritica]

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

So, yeah. Again, your powers of perception suck.

Had they spent more time gathering intelligence, they likely would have discovered the existence of the child.

They literally had a guy go and buy drugs from the place. How much more information do you expect them to gather?

[Occupied Deutschland]

Indeed.

Of course, it would seem that information was rather bad since there weren't actually armed men there. Or drugs...Or the person they were looking for.

In fact, they seem to have depended on a pretty unreliable informant.

Well, yeah. But the guy did purchase drugs from the place. So...

The guy CLAIMED to have purchased drugs from the place.

Much like he claimed to see men guarding the place (though I believe he didn't know if they were armed or not and the assumption they were was the polices).

I'd say we can't depend on the informant's information judging by the actual information and how inaccurate his/hers was.

[Scomagia]

Boy, it's a good thing I never claimed they were.

Then it's even fucking better that they used the fiber optic because they know the room has potential hostiles.

so a fiber optic will magically reveal that a hallway, which may have cabinets on the sides, stuff in front of the door (as was the case here) or even doors to other rooms which can be opened the moment someone hears the police bashing open the door, is completely free of any guards and it will be safe when they try to open the door even if it's barricaded?
since that's what this reads like to me. a minicam helps, but it's by no means failproof.

I said the room. Singular. Not hallway. Room.

[Viritica]

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

Did I say they should have planned for there being a baby behind the door? No. I didn't. I suggested that they should have planned for trying to find out what was there.

They believed there were drugs there. That's why they were raiding the place.

[Lavan Tiri]

None of the information they had suggested there was a child in there. They did, however, have information suggesting that there were armed men inside.

Did I say they should have planned for there being a baby behind the door? No. I didn't. I suggested that they should have planned for trying to find out what was there.

The baby and his parents could have arrived too late for the swat team to know about them? It's a possible scenario.

[Viritica]

Well, yeah. But the guy did purchase drugs from the place. So...

The guy CLAIMED to have purchased drugs from the place.

Much like he claimed to see men guarding the place (though I believe he didn't know if they were armed or not and the assumption they were was the polices).

I'd say we can't depend on the informant's information judging by the actual information and how inaccurate his/hers was.

Yes. They know that now.

[Ifreann]

Yes, they could be. That doesn't mean the police should abandon all concern for their own lives and the lives of any innocent bystanders.


Definitely one of the stranger insults I've heard...

They didn't abandon concern. They threw a flashbang inside.

And while they were doing that, the suspects could have been flushing drugs down the toilet or getting weapons ready.

Flashbangs are *gasp* nonlethal.

"Non-lethal"

[Camicon]

Well, yeah. But the guy did purchase drugs from the place. So...

The guy CLAIMED to have purchased drugs from the place.

Much like he claimed to see men guarding the place (though I believe he didn't know if they were armed or not and the assumption they were was the polices).

I'd say we can't depend on the informant's information judging by the actual information and how inaccurate his/hers was.

Which suggests that the operation shouldn't have taken place at all, in which case blame the judge that issued the warrant. Blame the officers that ordered the raid. But don't blame the men on the ground that did exactly as they were supposed to.

[Viritica]

They didn't abandon concern. They threw a flashbang inside.

And while they were doing that, the suspects could have been flushing drugs down the toilet or getting weapons ready.

Flashbangs are *gasp* nonlethal.

"Non-lethal"

A stun grenade, also known as a flash grenade or flashbang, is a non-lethal explosive device used to temporarily disorient an enemy's senses. It is designed to produce a blinding flash of light and loud noise without causing permanent injury. It was first developed by the British Army's SAS in the 1960s.[1]

[Ifreann]

Did I say they should have planned for there being a baby behind the door? No. I didn't. I suggested that they should have planned for trying to find out what was there.

They believed there were drugs there. That's why they were raiding the place.

I know. What are you getting at?

---

And while they were doing that, the suspects could have been flushing drugs down the toilet or getting weapons ready.

"Non-lethal"

A stun grenade, also known as a flash grenade or flashbang, is a non-lethal explosive device used to temporarily disorient an enemy's senses. It is designed to produce a blinding flash of light and loud noise without causing permanent injury. It was first developed by the British Army's SAS in the 1960s.[1]

Although stun grenades are usually designed to be non-lethal, several deaths have been attributed to their use. These include the following:

[Arkinesia]

Well. None of the information except the minivan in the driveway.

Care to point out where you're getting that information from?

Alecia Phonesavanh guest-wrote a piece about her ordeal over at Salon.

I normally wouldn't use Salon as a source but it is a primary source.

[Shark pond]

The guy CLAIMED to have purchased drugs from the place.

Much like he claimed to see men guarding the place (though I believe he didn't know if they were armed or not and the assumption they were was the polices).

I'd say we can't depend on the informant's information judging by the actual information and how inaccurate his/hers was.

Which suggests that the operation shouldn't have taken place at all, in which case blame the judge that issued the warrant. Blame the officers that ordered the raid. But don't blame the men on the ground that did exactly as they were supposed to.

And are probably horrified by what happened to the kid, as I said a page or two back.

[Occupied Deutschland]

The guy CLAIMED to have purchased drugs from the place.

Much like he claimed to see men guarding the place (though I believe he didn't know if they were armed or not and the assumption they were was the polices).

I'd say we can't depend on the informant's information judging by the actual information and how inaccurate his/hers was.

Yes. They know that now.

And the reason an informant's word was trusted so far is?

Informants aren't exactly reliable. Maybe the cops should've...you know...done their job a little bit more rather than depending on a criminal cooperating with them to give them accurate information.

[Viritica]

They believed there were drugs there. That's why they were raiding the place.

I know. What are you getting at?

You said they should have planned for trying to find out what was there. They were planning on finding out what was there. They had a warrant and they were executing that warrant.

[Viritica]

Yes. They know that now.

And the reason an informant's word was trusted so far is?

Informants aren't exactly reliable. Maybe the cops should've...you know...done their job a little bit more rather than depending on a criminal cooperating with them to give them accurate information.

Then blame the judge who gave them a search warrant. Blame the officers who ordered it in the first place.

[Viritica]

They believed there were drugs there. That's why they were raiding the place.

I know. What are you getting at?

---

Although stun grenades are usually designed to be non-lethal, several deaths have been attributed to their use. These include the following:

Less lethal.

[Occupied Deutschland]

And the reason an informant's word was trusted so far is?

Informants aren't exactly reliable. Maybe the cops should've...you know...done their job a little bit more rather than depending on a criminal cooperating with them to give them accurate information.

Then blame the judge who gave them a search warrant. Blame the officers who ordered it in the first place.

I do.

[Ifreann]

Which suggests that the operation shouldn't have taken place at all, in which case blame the judge that issued the warrant. Blame the officers that ordered the raid. But don't blame the men on the ground that did exactly as they were supposed to.

And are probably horrified by what happened to the kid, as I said a page or two back.

What does their being horrified or not matter?

---

I know. What are you getting at?

You said they should have planned for trying to find out what was there. They were planning on finding out what was there. They had a warrant and they were executing that warrant.

By "there" I was referring to behind the door. As in, what was it that was keeping it from being smashed in.

---

I know. What are you getting at?

---

Less lethal.

*gasp*

[United Allied Earth Federation]

Wow, you guys must REALLY care about this forum for it stay popular this long.