I.V.F- Yes or no?

[The Flood]

1. It is completely possible not to kill any of them...
2. No, they are human beings in their earliest stage of life, and have all the same rights as all other humans.
3. So what? We will eventually reach that point.

1. No, it's not, and if you think it is then you really need to take a goddamn course in biology.
2. First of all, it's not even an embryo at the latest time of freezing, it's a blastocyst. And you would rather it go in the trash than to be frozen to be placed in a woman's uterus late in hopes that it can become a child? It's not treating it as "food stock or valueless commodities," it is keeping it safe so that it might be born.
3. Irrelevant.

1. It is not impossible to not actively kill them.
2. A blastocyst is human. A human comes into existence at conception, fact. No, obviously it ought not be killed, or frozen. It must be implanted and given a chance at life when it is created.

[Atlanticatia]

I'm worried about social mobility slowly eroding away to zero over several generations until we have a self-perpetuating ruling class of transhumans.

This is sort of.. laughable.

I think that genetic modification causing some sort of ultraintelligent oppressive ruling class is the least likely impediment to social mobility. What about, uh, income inequality? Poor education? Poverty?

I don't think an uprising of genetically superior transhumanism conspiring to oppress us all are that big of a threat.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Ok, so we can't have incredibly intelligent people because, maybe, just maybe, one of them will be both a sociopath and born into the proper environment to rise to power and then - after having never been diagnosed with psychopathy and remaining incognito their entire lives - oppress people. It all makes sense now. We can't have smart people because of mecha-hitler.

Because of mechahitler. Your rationale has no other conclusion.

It must be fun to continuously substitute caricature for actual argument.

My point is that if we increase the variance in useful genetic characteristics within the human species, we will almost certainly also increase the variance in the amount of power that different people have. Many useful genetic characteristics (including, but not limited to, intelligence) correlate with power and status in human society, and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.

Was Einstein a rich man? No? Then you can try to be less disingenuous next time.

[Tekania]

2. None of the embryos are frozen, however sperm and ovums do at times until the couple is ready to have children.
3. I can see where you're coming from, but I'd prefer more genetic engineering on humans to be such that defective genes could be detected and corrected across the medical field, not necessarily for a few individuals. It'd help with preventing severe deforming mutations like spina bifida.

If the sperm and the egg have merged, then it is a human being and it is not moral to kill or freeze it.

Correcting diseases could be acceptable, if it is achieved by actually fixing the genetic flaws of the embryo, and not by simply killing them.

You're either killing it or you're freezing it..... there is no middle ground. Not doing one is doing the other, as you will need to freeze it for storage till it is ready for implanting. And I really fail to see what is immoral about freezing it.

[The Flood]

1. It is completely possible not to kill any of them...
2. No, they are human beings in their earliest stage of life, and have all the same rights as all other humans.
3. So what? We will eventually reach that point.

Are you one of those "masturbation is murder" types? Cause eggs and sperm aren't people.

Eggs and sperm are not human, they are haploid cells. A fertilized egg, or zygote, is human.

[Constantinopolis]

Why must all genetically modified humans be sociopaths?

Not all. Just some. And if their enhancements are enough to make it impossible for ordinary humans to stop them from amassing power for themselves, we would be at the mercy of the transhumans and would have to just hope that the "good" ones outweigh the "bad" ones.

To reiterate:

My point is that if we increase the variance in useful genetic characteristics within the human species, we will almost certainly also increase the variance in the amount of power that different people have. Many useful genetic characteristics (including, but not limited to, intelligence) correlate with power and status in human society, and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.

If we increase the differences between people we will increase the distance between the powerful and the powerless. The rich will get comparatively richer and the poor will get comparatively poorer. Political power will be even more concentrated at the top. Democracy will be further eroded, or cease to exist.

I'm not worried about any single dictator. I'm not worried about "mechahitler". I'm worried about social mobility slowly eroding away to zero over several generations until we have a self-perpetuating ruling class of transhumans.

Was Einstein a rich man? No? Then you can try to be less disingenuous next time.

There is a correlation between intelligence and wealth. That doesn't mean all smart people get rich, it means smart people have a statistically higher chance of getting rich.

Make them smart enough, and that chance becomes 100%.

[New haven america]

Are you one of those "masturbation is murder" types? Cause eggs and sperm aren't people.

Eggs and sperm are not human, they are haploid cells. A fertilized egg, or zygote, is human.

No, a zygote is a zygote.

It's not human.

[The Flood]

2. It's a human. Scientific fact, it's literally not open to debate, do not argue the point again.
3. Refusing to think about these things in advance is utter foolishness. We should be prepared and think forwardly, not just let shit happen and deal with it when it's already too late.

It is a human, is it a matured human being? No, stop being, yet again, disingenuous.
And again, we don't know because it has not happened before, right now all it is is paranoia and wishful thinking. When we get to it then we worry about it. It's literally how even businesses work.

Human rights apply to all humans, not just the ones someone arbitrarily chooses. Every form of discrimination, genocide, injustice in all of history has been caused by someone deciding x group is less human, or not human.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Are you one of those "masturbation is murder" types? Cause eggs and sperm aren't people.

Eggs and sperm are not human, they are haploid cells. A fertilized egg, or zygote, is human.

The fertilized eggs are frozen, not killed. Please, stop saying that the IVF procedure is murder. It isn't.

[Constantinopolis]

I'm worried about social mobility slowly eroding away to zero over several generations until we have a self-perpetuating ruling class of transhumans.

This is sort of.. laughable.

I think that genetic modification causing some sort of ultraintelligent oppressive ruling class is the least likely impediment to social mobility. What about, uh, income inequality? Poor education? Poverty?

I don't think an uprising of genetically superior transhumanism conspiring to oppress us all are that big of a threat.

Yeah, about income inequality... how much worse do you think it will be when rich parents can literally pay to have their kids be smarter than poor kids?

I'm not worried about any kind of uprising. On the contrary. I'm worried about the people already at the top using genetic enhancements to ensure that no one could ever unseat them or compete with them.

[Condunum]

Ok, so we can't have incredibly intelligent people because, maybe, just maybe, one of them will be both a sociopath and born into the proper environment to rise to power and then - after having never been diagnosed with psychopathy and remaining incognito their entire lives - oppress people. It all makes sense now. We can't have smart people because of mecha-hitler.

Because of mechahitler. Your rationale has no other conclusion.

It must be fun to continuously substitute caricature for actual argument.

I'm going to invite you to review your own posts in this thread, and then consider the immense irony of this statement. I am, of course, fighting fire with fire.

My point is that [i]if we increase the variance in useful genetic characteristics within the human species, we will almost certainly also increase the variance in the amount of power that different people have. Many useful genetic characteristics (including, but not limited to, intelligence) correlate with power and status in human society, and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.

I don't suggest otherwise, quite the contrary. You're the one at fault by suggesting it has a significant influence on status, and I will identify two ways why. One, intelligence is determined by a mixture of one's birth and upbringing. Two (linked with one), financial stability has far more influence on success than intelligence does, and a lack of such makes full potential a pipe dream. You causally ignore this and forget to actually prove how genetic enhancement will harm us in the long run. All you do is offer sound bites and hollow platitudes.

If we increase the differences between people we will increase the distance between the powerful and the powerless. The rich will get comparatively richer and the poor will get comparatively poorer. Political power will be even more concentrated at the top. Democracy will be further eroded, or cease to exist.

Baseless fear mongering until given a base to stand on. Platitudes will not help.

I'm not worried about any single dictator. I'm not worried about "mechahitler". I'm worried about social mobility slowly eroding away to zero over several generations until we have a self-perpetuating ruling class of transhumans.

Which is already happening completely absent of transhumanism. Funny how your reason for fearing transhumanism is an already occurring problem in our society that has no links to transhumanism.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

It is a human, is it a matured human being? No, stop being, yet again, disingenuous.
And again, we don't know because it has not happened before, right now all it is is paranoia and wishful thinking. When we get to it then we worry about it. It's literally how even businesses work.

Human rights apply to all humans, not just the ones someone arbitrarily chooses. Every form of discrimination, genocide, injustice in all of history has been caused by someone deciding x group is less human, or not human.

Would you rather it die or would you rather it be frozen?
You can only choose one.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It is a human, is it a matured human being? No, stop being, yet again, disingenuous.
And again, we don't know because it has not happened before, right now all it is is paranoia and wishful thinking. When we get to it then we worry about it. It's literally how even businesses work.

Human rights apply to all humans, not just the ones someone arbitrarily chooses. Every form of discrimination, genocide, injustice in all of history has been caused by someone deciding x group is less human, or not human.

Does it have a brain, a heart, a kidney, spleen, lungs, skeletomucular systems? No? Then it's not deplorable to do anything to them.

[The Flood]

I'm worried about social mobility slowly eroding away to zero over several generations until we have a self-perpetuating ruling class of transhumans.

This is sort of.. laughable.
I think that genetic modification causing some sort of ultraintelligent oppressive ruling class is the least likely impediment to social mobility. What about, uh, income inequality? Poor education? Poverty?
I don't think an uprising of genetically superior transhumanism conspiring to oppress us all are that big of a threat.

They wouldn't have to perform any kind of coup, they would have inherited all their wealth and power from their parents, who had them genetically engineered to be superior using the wealth they had.

[The Flood]

If the sperm and the egg have merged, then it is a human being and it is not moral to kill or freeze it.
Correcting diseases could be acceptable, if it is achieved by actually fixing the genetic flaws of the embryo, and not by simply killing them.

You're either killing it or you're freezing it..... there is no middle ground. Not doing one is doing the other, as you will need to freeze it for storage till it is ready for implanting. And I really fail to see what is immoral about freezing it.

Is it moral to freeze your new born baby until you're ready to take care of it? No, it isn't.

And there is a middle ground; you implant it now rather then freezing or killing it, and let it develop as it is meant to.

[Condunum]

This is sort of.. laughable.

I think that genetic modification causing some sort of ultraintelligent oppressive ruling class is the least likely impediment to social mobility. What about, uh, income inequality? Poor education? Poverty?

I don't think an uprising of genetically superior transhumanism conspiring to oppress us all are that big of a threat.

Yeah, about income inequality... how much worse do you think it will be when rich parents can literally pay to have their kids be smarter than poor kids?

Not much, because the more intelligent offspring would see the benefit in a well-fed, well-paid, well-managed workforce in whatever business you're assuming they'd be in.

Oh, were you going to try and claim he'd behave like a factory baron in 1847?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Human rights apply to all humans, not just the ones someone arbitrarily chooses. Every form of discrimination, genocide, injustice in all of history has been caused by someone deciding x group is less human, or not human.

Does it have a brain, a heart, a kidney, spleen, lungs, skeletomucular systems? No? Then it's not deplorable to do anything to them.

Can it survive on it's own? No? Then it is up to the person in charge of it t make decisions for it.

[Constantinopolis]

[redacted]

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

You're either killing it or you're freezing it..... there is no middle ground. Not doing one is doing the other, as you will need to freeze it for storage till it is ready for implanting. And I really fail to see what is immoral about freezing it.

Is it moral to freeze your new born baby until you're ready to take care of it? No, it isn't.

And there is a middle ground; you implant it now rather then freezing or killing it, and let it develop as it is meant to.

Wow, you don't understand biology or IVF or the fact that a born baby is not the same as a blastocyst.

[Constantinopolis]

Yeah, about income inequality... how much worse do you think it will be when rich parents can literally pay to have their kids be smarter than poor kids?

Not much, because the more intelligent offspring would see the benefit in a well-fed, well-paid, well-managed workforce in whatever business you're assuming they'd be in.

Oh, were you going to try and claim he'd behave like a factory baron in 1847?

Your trust in the benevolence of the powerful would be sweet and touching, if it weren't so stupid and dangerous.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

And you wonder why people like me turn their backs on Christianity. It is because of people like you, who say they love their neighbor but when it comes down to it you don't

I do love my neighbor, which is why I hate people who say that they just want to live a life of luxury and not give a fuck about their poorer neighbors, as you did.

I have a deep, burning hatred for people who don't care about others. I think they are vile scum. And yes, I know this hatred is a sin. Probably my greatest one.

Again, this has nothing to do with IVF.

But pontificate away.

[The Flood]

This is sort of.. laughable.
I think that genetic modification causing some sort of ultraintelligent oppressive ruling class is the least likely impediment to social mobility. What about, uh, income inequality? Poor education? Poverty?
I don't think an uprising of genetically superior transhumanism conspiring to oppress us all are that big of a threat.

Yeah, about income inequality... how much worse do you think it will be when rich parents can literally pay to have their kids be smarter than poor kids?
I'm not worried about any kind of uprising. On the contrary. I'm worried about the people already at the top using genetic enhancements to ensure that no one could ever unseat them or compete with them.

Seriously. It's this simple, how are people not getting this?

The rest of you guys need to give Gattaca a watch.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You're either killing it or you're freezing it..... there is no middle ground. Not doing one is doing the other, as you will need to freeze it for storage till it is ready for implanting. And I really fail to see what is immoral about freezing it.

Is it moral to freeze your new born baby until you're ready to take care of it? No, it isn't.

And there is a middle ground; you implant it now rather then freezing or killing it, and let it develop as it is meant to.

The problem is what if, what if they just want to have that embryo there sitting until the time they are ready to go through with it?

You are arguing for not prolonging their life. Why do we have refrigerators and freezers then? Why do we have cryogenesis? So we can have them sitting there looking pretty, or to preserve food, beverages (in the case of refrigerators and freezers) and people (in the case of cryogenesis)?

[Condunum]

Not much, because the more intelligent offspring would see the benefit in a well-fed, well-paid, well-managed workforce in whatever business you're assuming they'd be in.

Oh, were you going to try and claim he'd behave like a factory baron in 1847?

Your trust in the benevolence of the powerful would be sweet and touching, if it weren't so stupid and dangerous.

Your fear of intelligence would be cute and innocent, if it weren't so harmful and insulting. We can all play platitudes, but eventually you have to try and support your claims.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yeah, about income inequality... how much worse do you think it will be when rich parents can literally pay to have their kids be smarter than poor kids?
I'm not worried about any kind of uprising. On the contrary. I'm worried about the people already at the top using genetic enhancements to ensure that no one could ever unseat them or compete with them.

Seriously. It's this simple, how are people not getting this?

The rest of you guys need to give Gattaca a watch.

And you guys need to cut back on the sci-fi. Seriously.