I.V.F- Yes or no?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

If people do not want it to be implanted at the last minute, freezing it is the best alternative to it dying because it prolongs the life of the embryo because - and this is important - every function of the human cell stops at a certain temperature without going into cellular death.

If you leave an embryo at room temperature it will invariably die because it doesn't have the environment to exist at room temperature.

If they don't want it implanted, then don't make it.

You don't understand IVF

[The Flood]

If they don't want it implanted, then don't make it.

And how would you know that? Are you the couple?!
There's several reasons why "not yet" and freezing it is a better alternative than not freezing it.

Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

[Atlanticatia]

You're saying things and your not backing them up.

Explain yourself.

1. You said that we can't knowingly kill them. Every time IVF occurs we know full and well that most or all of them will not implant at all and there is no chance that they will carry to term. Every time, a woman will lose those embryos and they will die and we know full and goddamn well that is going to happen. So, we can't have IVF at all if you say we can't "kill them" because we are sending them to die every time.
2. You cannot implant it straight away. It will die if you do not freeze it. It takes time, meaning it's not just an "oh, take out and egg, throw some sperm on it, and pop it back in in five minutes. They take the eggs and the sperm. The parents go home. The IVF technician uses high powered microscopes and specialized tools to put a sperm and egg together. They do it over and over, and then figure out which ones have combined if any at all have. They then have to call the parents and make an appointment with them, often times weeks in the future but at the very least several days later. The technician HAS TO FREEZE THEM OR ELSE THEY WILL DIE.
3. A Z/E/F is not a newborn. A newborn thinks, feels, has a heartbeat, etc etc etc and can survive outside of the womb "independently*" and thus there is no reason to cryogenically freeze it - if you can't care for them you can find someone who can.
4. Cryogenic freezing for born humans or even fetuses is not currently possible. That's science-fiction at the moment so it's fucking irrelevant anyway

I'm going to get ice cream
*Independence is NOT about whether or not the child can survive on it's own, it's about whether the child can survive in the care of ANYONE, i.e. it is not attached to only one person.

[Constantinopolis]

I'm honestly trying to persuade you here, so if you feel that any of my questions are loaded, please explain why and I will retract them.

So, all characteristics play a part in one's standing in human society. Then, if we could manipulate the genetic characteristics of our children, could we give them a statistically higher chance of achieving higher standing in human society?

Sure, if you were so inclined.

Ok, now assuming that (a) the rich have greater access to genetic enhancements than the poor, and (b) the rich want their children to also be rich - both of which are perfectly reasonable assumptions, I hope you agree - doesn't that mean that the children of the rich will be given genetic enhancements that will make them statistically even more likely to be rich and powerful than they already are?

[Condunum]

And how would you know that? Are you the couple?!
There's several reasons why "not yet" and freezing it is a better alternative than not freezing it.

Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

Go and actually do some research on the topic before you try to lecture about it.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You know, the pro-life camp is a piece of work.

If the woman seeks an abortion, she's a murderer. If she seeks IVF and has her zygotes frozen, she's a murderer. Make up your damn minds already. It's ridiculous.

Welcome to whining and bitching 101 and contrarianism 120; where nothing, absolutely nothing you do will please people.

It's why stopped giving a shit. If they want to bitch and bitch and bitch I rather let them do their act. I'll argue because it's fun but at the end of the day I can care less because they will always find a way to judge me or someone else. It's their modus operandi, can't avoid it.

[Condunum]

Sure, if you were so inclined.

Ok, now assuming that (a) the rich have greater access to genetic enhancements than the poor, and (b) the rich want their children to also be rich - both of which are perfectly reasonable assumptions, I hope you agree - doesn't that mean that the children of the rich will be given genetic enhancements that will make them statistically even more likely to be rich and powerful than they already are?

Yes, and?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

Go and actually do some research on the topic before you try to lecture about it.

Here's why cryopreservation is done:

The aim of zygote cryopreservation is to give couples the best chances of conceiving whilst limiting multiple pregnancies and associated complications. The zygotes can, in fact, be thawed and subsequently transferred if conception fails occurs during the first cycle. In this case, there is no need to repeat the ovarian stimulation and follicular needle biopsy stages.

Now, bullshit claims of murder dispelled.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And how would you know that? Are you the couple?!
There's several reasons why "not yet" and freezing it is a better alternative than not freezing it.

Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

Like SAT pointed out (May Allah bless you, SAT) there's other things at work other than just something quick and easy.

The fact you don't know these is you arguing from ignorance. Not that I can say much from my end, I just know the basics of the procedure.

[Tekania]

The problem is what if, what if they just want to have that embryo there sitting until the time they are ready to go through with it?
You are arguing for not prolonging their life. Why do we have refrigerators and freezers then? Why do we have cryogenesis? So we can have them sitting there looking pretty, or to preserve food, beverages (in the case of refrigerators and freezers) and people (in the case of cryogenesis)?

You people need to explain why the zygote either has to be frozen or die. It doesn't. It can be implanted when it is created along with any others, it doesn't need to be frozen or killed.

because it can only survive for a very short period of time in ambient conditions and implantation takes time..... many implantations takes lots of time..... time that it does not have before it will die unless protective measures (cryonic suspension) are used.

[The Flood]

You're saying things and your not backing them up.
Explain yourself.

1. You said that we can't knowingly kill them. Every time IVF occurs we know full and well that most or all of them will not implant at all and there is no chance that they will carry to term. Every time, a woman will lose those embryos and they will die and we know full and goddamn well that is going to happen. So, we can't have IVF at all if you say we can't "kill them" because we are sending them to die every time.
2. You cannot implant it straight away. It will die if you do not freeze it. It takes time, meaning it's not just an "oh, take out and egg, throw some sperm on it, and pop it back in in five minutes. They take the eggs and the sperm. The parents go home. The IVF technician uses high powered microscopes and specialized tools to put a sperm and egg together. They do it over and over, and then figure out which ones have combined if any at all have. They then have to call the parents and make an appointment with them, often times weeks in the future but at the very least several days later. The technician HAS TO FREEZE THEM OR ELSE THEY WILL DIE.
3. A Z/E/F is not a newborn. A newborn thinks, feels, has a heartbeat, etc etc etc and can survive outside of the womb "independently*" and thus there is no reason to cryogenically freeze it - if you can't care for them you can find someone who can.
4. Cryogenic freezing for born humans or even fetuses is not currently possible. That's science-fiction at the moment so it's fucking irrelevant anyway
I'm going to get ice cream
*Independence is NOT about whether or not the child can survive on it's own, it's about whether the child can survive in the care of ANYONE, i.e. it is not attached to only one person.

Okay, fine. Freeze it for a day if you have to. But freezing it for years like a commodity does not respect human dignity and is not okay.

Also I don't like ice cream.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You know, the pro-life camp is a piece of work.

If the woman seeks an abortion, she's a murderer. If she seeks IVF and has her zygotes frozen, she's a murderer. Make up your damn minds already. It's ridiculous.

Welcome to whining and bitching 101 and contrarianism 120; where nothing, absolutely nothing you do will please people.

It's why stopped giving a shit. If they want to bitch and bitch and bitch I rather let them do their act. I'll argue because it's fun but at the end of the day I can care less because they will always find a way to judge me or someone else. It's their modus operandi, can't avoid it.

It's fucking ridiculous.

[Condunum]

1. You said that we can't knowingly kill them. Every time IVF occurs we know full and well that most or all of them will not implant at all and there is no chance that they will carry to term. Every time, a woman will lose those embryos and they will die and we know full and goddamn well that is going to happen. So, we can't have IVF at all if you say we can't "kill them" because we are sending them to die every time.
2. You cannot implant it straight away. It will die if you do not freeze it. It takes time, meaning it's not just an "oh, take out and egg, throw some sperm on it, and pop it back in in five minutes. They take the eggs and the sperm. The parents go home. The IVF technician uses high powered microscopes and specialized tools to put a sperm and egg together. They do it over and over, and then figure out which ones have combined if any at all have. They then have to call the parents and make an appointment with them, often times weeks in the future but at the very least several days later. The technician HAS TO FREEZE THEM OR ELSE THEY WILL DIE.
3. A Z/E/F is not a newborn. A newborn thinks, feels, has a heartbeat, etc etc etc and can survive outside of the womb "independently*" and thus there is no reason to cryogenically freeze it - if you can't care for them you can find someone who can.
4. Cryogenic freezing for born humans or even fetuses is not currently possible. That's science-fiction at the moment so it's fucking irrelevant anyway
I'm going to get ice cream
*Independence is NOT about whether or not the child can survive on it's own, it's about whether the child can survive in the care of ANYONE, i.e. it is not attached to only one person.

Okay, fine. Freeze it for a day if you have to. But freezing it for years like a commodity does not respect human dignity and is not okay.

Also I don't like ice cream.

There is no dignity being disrespected.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Why did they spend 10,000 dollars or more to create a zygote and then decide, nah, lets implant it later? You had it made, so implant it now, or don't have it made until you are ready for it.

Like SAT pointed out (May Allah bless you, SAT) there's other things at work other than just something quick and easy.

The fact you don't know these is you arguing from ignorance. Not that I can say much from my end, I just know the basics of the procedure.

mashallah

[Constantinopolis]

Ok, now assuming that (a) the rich have greater access to genetic enhancements than the poor, and (b) the rich want their children to also be rich - both of which are perfectly reasonable assumptions, I hope you agree - doesn't that mean that the children of the rich will be given genetic enhancements that will make them statistically even more likely to be rich and powerful than they already are?

Yes, and?

Ok, so we agree that genetic enhancements will most likely lead to a situation where the statistical chances for the children of the rich and powerful to retain control of wealth and power are increased.

In other words, social mobility will be reduced, right?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Welcome to whining and bitching 101 and contrarianism 120; where nothing, absolutely nothing you do will please people.

It's why stopped giving a shit. If they want to bitch and bitch and bitch I rather let them do their act. I'll argue because it's fun but at the end of the day I can care less because they will always find a way to judge me or someone else. It's their modus operandi, can't avoid it.

It's fucking ridiculous.

It's ridiculous but yet is the way certain people act out of ignorance, paranoia, you call it is there.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

1. You said that we can't knowingly kill them. Every time IVF occurs we know full and well that most or all of them will not implant at all and there is no chance that they will carry to term. Every time, a woman will lose those embryos and they will die and we know full and goddamn well that is going to happen. So, we can't have IVF at all if you say we can't "kill them" because we are sending them to die every time.
2. You cannot implant it straight away. It will die if you do not freeze it. It takes time, meaning it's not just an "oh, take out and egg, throw some sperm on it, and pop it back in in five minutes. They take the eggs and the sperm. The parents go home. The IVF technician uses high powered microscopes and specialized tools to put a sperm and egg together. They do it over and over, and then figure out which ones have combined if any at all have. They then have to call the parents and make an appointment with them, often times weeks in the future but at the very least several days later. The technician HAS TO FREEZE THEM OR ELSE THEY WILL DIE.
3. A Z/E/F is not a newborn. A newborn thinks, feels, has a heartbeat, etc etc etc and can survive outside of the womb "independently*" and thus there is no reason to cryogenically freeze it - if you can't care for them you can find someone who can.
4. Cryogenic freezing for born humans or even fetuses is not currently possible. That's science-fiction at the moment so it's fucking irrelevant anyway
I'm going to get ice cream
*Independence is NOT about whether or not the child can survive on it's own, it's about whether the child can survive in the care of ANYONE, i.e. it is not attached to only one person.

Okay, fine. Freeze it for a day if you have to. But freezing it for years like a commodity does not respect human dignity and is not okay.

Also I don't like ice cream.

Ah so you prefer them to die than to be born excellent

Also I didn't fucking say you could touch my ice cream

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Welcome to whining and bitching 101 and contrarianism 120; where nothing, absolutely nothing you do will please people.

It's why stopped giving a shit. If they want to bitch and bitch and bitch I rather let them do their act. I'll argue because it's fun but at the end of the day I can care less because they will always find a way to judge me or someone else. It's their modus operandi, can't avoid it.

It's fucking ridiculous.

Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It's fucking ridiculous.

Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

I wish you weren't right but, you are.

[The Flood]

Okay, fine. Freeze it for a day if you have to. But freezing it for years like a commodity does not respect human dignity and is not okay.
Also I don't like ice cream.

Ah so you prefer them to die than to be born excellent
Also I didn't fucking say you could touch my ice cream

No, none of them can be killed. As soon as any are implanted, all must be.

No bullshit indefinite freezing until someone wants it, it must be implanted as soon as possible and not treated like a commodity, because human beings are not commodities.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's fucking ridiculous.

Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

Let's not forget the joke of the day: that they base transhumanism and their fear of technology out of fucking Gattaca.

[The Flood]

It's fucking ridiculous.

Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

You just described the pro-choice movement to a tea.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Ah so you prefer them to die than to be born excellent
Also I didn't fucking say you could touch my ice cream

No, none of them can be killed. As soon as any are implanted, all must be.

No bullshit indefinite freezing until someone wants it, it must be implanted as soon as possible and not treated like a commodity, because human beings are not commodities.

You continue to not understand IVF
Or logic
Or biology

[Condunum]

Yes, and?

Ok, so we agree that genetic enhancements will most likely lead to a situation where the statistical chances for the children of the rich and powerful to retain control of wealth and power are increased.

In other words, social mobility will be reduced, right?

There is a statistical chance that genetic enhancements can reduce social mobility. There is also a (likely much higher) statistical chance that genetic enhancements can wipe out disease and famine, and universally increase human intelligence at a rate not ever seen in human history, just like how genetically modifying food stuffs brought enhancement to the food stuffs at a faster rate than the entire history of artificial selection.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Welcome to the Pro-Life movement, where the logic is made up and the truth doesn't matter.

You just described the pro-choice movement to a tea.

She knows how IVF works... you, on the other hand...