I.V.F- Yes or no?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Oh ye of little faith. If prayer has not worked it is because you did not BELIEVE it would. You have to TRUST in the Lord. Prayer without Faith is nothing but noise. "By FAITH you have been made well" "By GRACE we are saved"

Bullshit.

If you pray for your child before taking them to a doctor with a 104F fever you should be fucking ashamed as a parent and Child Protective Services called on your ass. I don't give a fuck who you are, you don't use faith healing at the expense of a child's life.

People who think faith healing works and let their children die because of it disgust me.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Oh ye of little faith. If prayer has not worked it is because you did not BELIEVE it would. You have to TRUST in the Lord. Prayer without Faith is nothing but noise. "By FAITH you have been made well" "By GRACE we are saved"

Bullshit.

If you pray for your child before taking them to a doctor with a 104F fever you should be fucking ashamed as a parent and Child Protective Services called on your ass. I don't give a fuck who you are, you don't use faith healing at the expense of a child's life.

People who think faith healing works and let their children die because of it disgust me.

Christian Scientist and faith healing. People like that make me physically ill.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

1. It is completely possible not to kill any of them...
2. No, they are human beings in their earliest stage of life, and have all the same rights as all other humans.
3. So what? We will eventually reach that point.

1. no, it's not, because several things can go wrong.

2. They don't, they're just embryos, not humans. Stop being the most disingenuous person ever, again.

3. And when we do we'll cross the river when we get to it. Stop worrying about things that haven't even happened.

[Condunum]

Odd that someone who's opposed to scientific discovery on the grounds of "BUT THE EVIL PEOPLE" would have Einstein in their signature.

Actually I'm a strong advocate of space exploration, nuclear energy, and genetically improved crops, among other things. I consider myself a supporter of scientific advancement.

I just oppose human genetic enhancements.

Because of mechahitler. Your rationale has no other conclusion.

[Constantinopolis]

Yes, spending money on luxuries while people around you are hungry (note: I didn't say while they don't have the same things you do, I said while they are hungry) is indeed an evil, despicable thing to do, and anyone who does that is filthy scum.

Then get rid of your computer, internet connection, television, lights, nice clothes, food other than the bare minimum...
Either put up or shut up.

Those aren't luxuries. If you'll recall, my example of luxuries was having caviar and champagne flown in directly from France. I am talking about things on that level.

You don't get to decide what I do and not do with my life, you don't get to call me evil simply because I like to spend my money how I see fit, and you don't get to choose who I invest my money on. I'm really glad we got that covered, and I am really, really unconcerned about what you think of me because it's my life I am living, you're not living my life for me so back off of your judgemental high horse and your holier-than-thou attitude towards me. Are we clear on that?

Yeah, actually, I do get to judge you, I'm not going to back off of my "judgemental high horse" or "holier-than-thou attitude", I will continue to consider you an evil bastard, and since you're "really, really unconcerned" about what I think of you, I expect that we won't have any problems at all. Wonderful.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Christian Scientist and faith healing. People like that make me physically ill.

I mean at least anti-vaxxers are more or less into natural stuff (albeit that doesn't excuse what they do) so they are slightly less deplorable than faith healers and witch doctors.

[Condunum]

Then get rid of your computer, internet connection, television, lights, nice clothes, food other than the bare minimum...
Either put up or shut up.

Those aren't luxuries. If you'll recall, my example of luxuries was having caviar and champagne flown in directly from France. I am talking about things on that level.

And that has nothing to do with I.V.F.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

1. That's impossible
2. They are just eggs and sperm
3. We haven't even reached that level what the fuck are you talking about

1. It is completely possible not to kill any of them...
2. No, they are human beings in their earliest stage of life, and have all the same rights as all other humans.
3. So what? We will eventually reach that point.

1. No, it's not, and if you think it is then you really need to take a goddamn course in biology.
2. First of all, it's not even an embryo at the latest time of freezing, it's a blastocyst. And you would rather it go in the trash than to be frozen to be placed in a woman's uterus late in hopes that it can become a child? It's not treating it as "food stock or valueless commodities," it is keeping it safe so that it might be born.
3. Irrelevant.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Those aren't luxuries. If you'll recall, my example of luxuries was having caviar and champagne flown in directly from France. I am talking about things on that level.

And that has nothing to do with I.V.F.

I told him already but, you know, denial protects.

[The Flood]

2. None of the embryos are frozen, human beings are not food stock or valueless commodities and have a right not to be treated as such.
3. There is no genetic tampering with the offspring, designer babies are a terrible idea that will increase the wealth gap because the rich will engineer all their children to be superhuman, thus increasing their advantage to absurd levels and dooming the poor forever.

2. None of the embryos are frozen, however sperm and ovums do at times until the couple is ready to have children.
3. I can see where you're coming from, but I'd prefer more genetic engineering on humans to be such that defective genes could be detected and corrected across the medical field, not necessarily for a few individuals. It'd help with preventing severe deforming mutations like spina bifida.

If the sperm and the egg have merged, then it is a human being and it is not moral to kill or freeze it.

Correcting diseases could be acceptable, if it is achieved by actually fixing the genetic flaws of the embryo, and not by simply killing them.

[Condunum]

And that has nothing to do with I.V.F.

I told him already but, you know, denial protects.

Maybe if we say it enough. Like throwing pasta.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

[redacted]

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Christian Scientist and faith healing. People like that make me physically ill.

I mean at least anti-vaxxers are more or less into natural stuff (albeit that doesn't excuse what they do) so they are slightly less deplorable than faith healers and witch doctors.

I don't find anything commendable about anti-vaxxers either. By adopting such idiocy, they expose their children to catch severe illnesses, just from not administering to them the immunities they need.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I told him already but, you know, denial protects.

Maybe if we say it enough. Like throwing pasta.

Maybe. Shall we try?

[Scomagia]

Christian Scientist and faith healing. People like that make me physically ill.

I mean at least anti-vaxxers are more or less into natural stuff (albeit that doesn't excuse what they do) so they are slightly less deplorable than faith healers and witch doctors.

In the end it's the same; useless wishful thinking.

[Viritica]

1. That's impossible
2. They are just eggs and sperm
3. We haven't even reached that level what the fuck are you talking about

1. It is completely possible not to kill any of them...
2. No, they are human beings in their earliest stage of life, and have all the same rights as all other humans.
3. So what? We will eventually reach that point.

Are you one of those "masturbation is murder" types? Cause eggs and sperm aren't people.

[The Flood]

1. It is completely possible not to kill any of them...
2. No, they are human beings in their earliest stage of life, and have all the same rights as all other humans.
3. So what? We will eventually reach that point.

1. no, it's not, because several things can go wrong.
2. They don't, they're just embryos, not humans. Stop being the most disingenuous person ever, again.
3. And when we do we'll cross the river when we get to it. Stop worrying about things that haven't even happened.

1. If it was unintentional it wasn't 'killing'
2. It's a human. Scientific fact, it's literally not open to debate, do not argue the point again.
3. Refusing to think about these things in advance is utter foolishness. We should be prepared and think forwardly, not just let shit happen and deal with it when it's already too late.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I mean at least anti-vaxxers are more or less into natural stuff (albeit that doesn't excuse what they do) so they are slightly less deplorable than faith healers and witch doctors.

In the end it's the same; useless wishful thinking.

Indeed, it is the same, but I at least find not protecting someone from a disease and exposing them directly to diseases and then taking care of them slightly, a tiny sliver less deplorable than someone who sees their child sick and don't have the dignity to call 911 or take them to the doctor. Those people do not deserve any sympathy from me as parents.

[Scomagia]

In the end it's the same; useless wishful thinking.

Indeed, it is the same, but I at least find not protecting someone from a disease and exposing them directly to diseases and then taking care of them slightly, a tiny sliver less deplorable than someone who sees their child sick and don't have the dignity to call 911 or take them to the doctor. Those people do not deserve any sympathy from me as parents.

I view them with equal amounts of disgust and incredulity.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

2. It's a human. Scientific fact, it's literally not open to debate, do not argue the point again.
3. Refusing to think about these things in advance is utter foolishness. We should be prepared and think forwardly, not just let shit happen and deal with it when it's already too late.

It is a human, is it a matured human being? No, stop being, yet again, disingenuous.

And again, we don't know because it has not happened before, right now all it is is paranoia and wishful thinking. When we get to it then we worry about it. It's literally how even businesses work.

[Condunum]

2. None of the embryos are frozen, however sperm and ovums do at times until the couple is ready to have children.
3. I can see where you're coming from, but I'd prefer more genetic engineering on humans to be such that defective genes could be detected and corrected across the medical field, not necessarily for a few individuals. It'd help with preventing severe deforming mutations like spina bifida.

If the sperm and the egg have merged, then it is a human being and it is not moral to kill or freeze it.

Correcting diseases could be acceptable, if it is achieved by actually fixing the genetic flaws of the embryo, and not by simply killing them.

Nothing hurts science more than a couple of fundamentalists who heard someone reduce a procedure down to a few platitudes that completely eliminate all contextual understanding of any of it, and then runs with those platitudes because they fit the bill.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Indeed, it is the same, but I at least find not protecting someone from a disease and exposing them directly to diseases and then taking care of them slightly, a tiny sliver less deplorable than someone who sees their child sick and don't have the dignity to call 911 or take them to the doctor. Those people do not deserve any sympathy from me as parents.

I view them with equal amounts of disgust and incredulity.

Same here. Small pox, chicken pox, mumps, polio... why expose a child to them when you can vaccinate.

But we digress.

[Constantinopolis]

No no, people are definitely not dumb enough to be manipulated by brilliant sociopaths who crave power. We can totally rest easy knowing that there is no way anyone would ever be dumb enough to tolerate, let alone support, power-grabs by such types.

I mean, it's not like any smart sociopaths within the normal range of human intelligence have ever risen to power. We definitely don't have anything to fear from hyper-intelligent ones.

Ok, so we can't have incredibly intelligent people because, maybe, just maybe, one of them will be both a sociopath and born into the proper environment to rise to power and then - after having never been diagnosed with psychopathy and remaining incognito their entire lives - oppress people. It all makes sense now. We can't have smart people because of mecha-hitler.

Actually I'm a strong advocate of space exploration, nuclear energy, and genetically improved crops, among other things. I consider myself a supporter of scientific advancement.

I just oppose human genetic enhancements.

Because of mechahitler. Your rationale has no other conclusion.

It must be fun to continuously substitute caricature for actual argument.

My point is that if we increase the variance in useful genetic characteristics within the human species, we will almost certainly also increase the variance in the amount of power that different people have. Many useful genetic characteristics (including, but not limited to, intelligence) correlate with power and status in human society, and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.

If we increase the differences between people we will increase the distance between the powerful and the powerless. The rich will get comparatively richer and the poor will get comparatively poorer. Political power will be even more concentrated at the top. Democracy will be further eroded, or cease to exist.

I'm not worried about any single dictator. I'm not worried about "mechahitler". I'm worried about social mobility slowly eroding away to zero over several generations until we have a self-perpetuating ruling class of transhumans.

[Condunum]

Maybe if we say it enough. Like throwing pasta.

Maybe. Shall we try?

It's worth a shot, I think

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Maybe. Shall we try?

It's worth a shot, I think

Ok, you start.