The Confederate battle flag

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

He said that the immediate cause of the secession was slavery. Therefore, the flag was a symbol of those fighting for the right to maintain ownership of black slaves (the only form of slavery explicitly protected in the Constitution of the C.S.A.).

So the Cornerstone speech, the secession documents of several states, and the Confederate Constitution itself have all been manipulated and changed?

Gosh, that's a funny thing to believe. A funny and very illogical thing at that. The flag of the Confederacy was not sewn together to solely say, "fuck niggers! yeehaw," but it was to defend their rights as men in the south to live their lives the way their fathers and their grandfathers lived. They fought for States' Rights most of all, and slavery was a secondary goal that wished to maintain as it was what made their economy function.

The more you speak the less you seem to say. It's evident at this point that you're either denying evidence or willfully ignorant of the facts, and I see no reason to continue until you actually just look up the cornerstone speech and read the contents. Or just look a few pages back where I clipped out the important bits.

[Llamalandia]

Well, adjusting for inflation...
But seriously, the taxes were actually super unreasonable tariffs and sales taxes that were used to pay for a war the colonies didn't choose to join but were instead forced to, without any say in the matter.

Dude, five bucks is with inflation.

I do agree on tariffs. And all tariffs. Their bull.

Actually Wikipedia says the tariff of abominations was the worst tarriff ever smoot hawley wasn't as bad, so it's safe to say it was more onerous than $5 a year with or without an adjustment for inflation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_Abominations

[Dyakovo]

He said that the immediate cause of the secession was slavery. Therefore, the flag was a symbol of those fighting for the right to maintain ownership of black slaves (the only form of slavery explicitly protected in the Constitution of the C.S.A.).

So the Cornerstone speech, the secession documents of several states, and the Confederate Constitution itself have all been manipulated and changed?

Gosh, that's a funny thing to believe. A funny and very illogical thing at that. The flag of the Confederacy was not sewn together to solely say, "fuck niggers! yeehaw," but it was to defend their rights as men in the south to live their lives the way their fathers and their grandfathers lived. They fought for States' Rights most of all, and slavery was a secondary goal that wished to maintain as it was what made their economy function.

Absolute bullshit again. The only "states' right" they cared about was the continuation of racially-based slavery.
They were all for the federal government being able to boss states around when it was in protection of their 'right' to own people.

[Getrektistan]

He said that the immediate cause of the secession was slavery. Therefore, the flag was a symbol of those fighting for the right to maintain ownership of black slaves (the only form of slavery explicitly protected in the Constitution of the C.S.A.).

So the Cornerstone speech, the secession documents of several states, and the Confederate Constitution itself have all been manipulated and changed?

Gosh, that's a funny thing to believe. A funny and very illogical thing at that. The flag of the Confederacy was not sewn together to solely say, "fuck niggers! yeehaw," but it was to defend their rights as men in the south to live their lives the way their fathers and their grandfathers lived.

Putting men in chains, forcing them to serve people who thought they were wholly superior to them? Making innocent people relentlessly picking cotton in the blazing heat? Raping their mothers, wives, and daughters, whipping and murdering their sons? Is that the lifestyle you want to defend?

[-The West Coast-]

Gosh, that's a funny thing to believe. A funny and very illogical thing at that. The flag of the Confederacy was not sewn together to solely say, "fuck niggers! yeehaw," but it was to defend their rights as men in the south to live their lives the way their fathers and their grandfathers lived.

Putting men in chains, forcing them to serve people who thought they were wholly superior to them? Making innocent people relentlessly picking cotton in the blazing heat? Raping their mothers, wives, and daughters, whipping and murdering their sons? Is that the lifestyle you want to defend?

I'm not defending the institution of slavery. I'm defending the meaning of the Confederate flag.

[Getrektistan]

Putting men in chains, forcing them to serve people who thought they were wholly superior to them? Making innocent people relentlessly picking cotton in the blazing heat? Raping their mothers, wives, and daughters, whipping and murdering their sons? Is that the lifestyle you want to defend?

I'm not defending the institution of slavery. I'm defending the meaning of the Confederate flag.

To many people, myself included, that's exactly what the Confederate flag represents, and it's hardly an unfair assessment given that the primary right the CSA fought for was the right to own slaves.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Putting men in chains, forcing them to serve people who thought they were wholly superior to them? Making innocent people relentlessly picking cotton in the blazing heat? Raping their mothers, wives, and daughters, whipping and murdering their sons? Is that the lifestyle you want to defend?

I'm not defending the institution of slavery. I'm defending the meaning of the Confederate flag.

The Confederate flag is a symbol of the defense of the institution of slavery. This has been established repeatedly in this thread through numerous sources, including the founding documents of the Confederacy.

[Llamalandia]

Gosh, that's a funny thing to believe. A funny and very illogical thing at that. The flag of the Confederacy was not sewn together to solely say, "fuck niggers! yeehaw," but it was to defend their rights as men in the south to live their lives the way their fathers and their grandfathers lived. They fought for States' Rights most of all, and slavery was a secondary goal that wished to maintain as it was what made their economy function.

The more you speak the less you seem to say. It's evident at this point that you're either denying evidence or willfully ignorant of the facts, and I see no reason to continue until you actually just look up the cornerstone speech and read the contents. Or just look a few pages back where I clipped out the important bits.

Very well allow me then to quote from Cornerstone as well:

Allow me briefly to allude to some of these improvements. The question of building up class interests, or fostering one branch of industry to the prejudice of another under the exercise of the revenue power, which gave us so much trouble under the old constitution, is put at rest forever under the new. We allow the imposition of no duty with a view of giving advantage to one class of persons, in any trade or business, over those of another. All, under our system, stand upon the same broad principles of perfect equality. Honest labor and enterprise are left free and unrestricted in whatever pursuit they may be engaged. This old thorn of the tariff, which was the cause of so much irritation in the old body politic, is removed forever from the new.

Seems pretty clear that the speech was as much about trade and tarriff and taxation as it was about the "peculiar southern institution of African slavery".

[Llamalandia]

I'm not defending the institution of slavery. I'm defending the meaning of the Confederate flag.

The Confederate flag is a symbol of the defense of the institution of slavery. This has been established repeatedly in this thread through numerous sources, including the founding documents of the Confederacy.

True, however it's also been shown throughout this thread not to be exclusively a symbol of slavery.

[-The West Coast-]

I'm not defending the institution of slavery. I'm defending the meaning of the Confederate flag.

To many people, myself included, that's exactly what the Confederate flag represents, and it's hardly an unfair assessment given that the primary right the CSA fought for was the right to own slaves.

They actually fought a war for their independence from a government they no longer believed in, which was supported by precedence four score and seven years before.

[Getrektistan]

To many people, myself included, that's exactly what the Confederate flag represents, and it's hardly an unfair assessment given that the primary right the CSA fought for was the right to own slaves.

They actually fought a war for their independence from a government they no longer believed in, which was supported by precedence four score and seven years before.

And the primary drive for their lack of support in the federal government was their way of life (i.e. owning slaves) was being threatened.

[Revanchism]

He said that the immediate cause of the secession was slavery. Therefore, the flag was a symbol of those fighting for the right to maintain ownership of black slaves (the only form of slavery explicitly protected in the Constitution of the C.S.A.).

So the Cornerstone speech, the secession documents of several states, and the Confederate Constitution itself have all been manipulated and changed?

Gosh, that's a funny thing to believe. A funny and very illogical thing at that. The flag of the Confederacy was not sewn together to solely say, "fuck niggers! yeehaw," but it was to defend their rights as men in the south to live their lives the way their fathers and their grandfathers lived. They fought for States' Rights most of all, and slavery was a secondary goal that wished to maintain as it was what made their economy function.

Yes, states rights. States rights to own slaves.

[Dynasty of Dalliances]

To many people, myself included, that's exactly what the Confederate flag represents, and it's hardly an unfair assessment given that the primary right the CSA fought for was the right to own slaves.

They actually fought a war for their independence from a government they no longer believed in, which was supported by precedence four score and seven years before.

They wanted their independence so they could continue to have the right to own other human beings. Slightly different from the American Revolution.

[Revanchism]

To many people, myself included, that's exactly what the Confederate flag represents, and it's hardly an unfair assessment given that the primary right the CSA fought for was the right to own slaves.

They actually fought a war for their independence from a government they no longer believed in, which was supported by precedence four score and seven years before.

I believe you meant to say "that the rich landowners/slaveholders couldn't manipulate as effectively anymore".

[-The West Coast-]

They actually fought a war for their independence from a government they no longer believed in, which was supported by precedence four score and seven years before.

And the primary drive for their lack of support in the federal government was their way of life (i.e. owning slaves) was being threatened.

And the fact that there had been previous engagements between Southern states and the federal government that gave the citizens of the South a bad taste when Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860.

[Getrektistan]

And the primary drive for their lack of support in the federal government was their way of life (i.e. owning slaves) was being threatened.

And the fact that there had been previous engagements between Southern states and the federal government that gave the citizens of the South a bad taste when Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860.

Those previous engagements were mostly about slavery as well. Bloody Kansas, for instance.

[Genivaria]

To many people, myself included, that's exactly what the Confederate flag represents, and it's hardly an unfair assessment given that the primary right the CSA fought for was the right to own slaves.

They actually fought a war for their independence from a government they no longer believed in, which was supported by precedence four score and seven years before.

And what horrible tyrannies did the government push upon them? They elected a pro-abolition president.
Cry me a fucking river.

[Genivaria]

And the primary drive for their lack of support in the federal government was their way of life (i.e. owning slaves) was being threatened.

And the fact that there had been previous engagements between Southern states and the federal government that gave the citizens of the South a bad taste when Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860.

Source them.

And the fact that there had been previous engagements between Southern states and the federal government that gave the citizens of the South a bad taste when Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860.

Those previous engagements were mostly about slavery as well. Bloody Kansas, for instance.

Even Bloody Kansas was only between civilians.

[-The West Coast-]

And the fact that there had been previous engagements between Southern states and the federal government that gave the citizens of the South a bad taste when Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860.

Those previous engagements were mostly about slavery as well. Bloody Kansas, for instance.

Andrew Jackson invaded the southern state of South Carolina during his presidency concerning tariffs and taxes. Not concerning slavery.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The Confederate flag is a symbol of the defense of the institution of slavery. This has been established repeatedly in this thread through numerous sources, including the founding documents of the Confederacy.

True, however it's also been shown throughout this thread not to be exclusively a symbol of slavery.

Sure, and the Nazi flag was not exclusively used as a symbol of anti-Semitism.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

The more you speak the less you seem to say. It's evident at this point that you're either denying evidence or willfully ignorant of the facts, and I see no reason to continue until you actually just look up the cornerstone speech and read the contents. Or just look a few pages back where I clipped out the important bits.

Very well allow me then to quote from Cornerstone as well:

Allow me briefly to allude to some of these improvements. The question of building up class interests, or fostering one branch of industry to the prejudice of another under the exercise of the revenue power, which gave us so much trouble under the old constitution, is put at rest forever under the new. We allow the imposition of no duty with a view of giving advantage to one class of persons, in any trade or business, over those of another. All, under our system, stand upon the same broad principles of perfect equality. Honest labor and enterprise are left free and unrestricted in whatever pursuit they may be engaged. This old thorn of the tariff, which was the cause of so much irritation in the old body politic, is removed forever from the new.

Seems pretty clear that the speech was as much about trade and tarriff and taxation as it was about the "peculiar southern institution of African slavery".

That's "alluding to some of the improvements". Those were certainly present, yes. However, "African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." That makes it the most important thing. That makes it the cause. The corner stone, one could say. One DID say, as a matter of fact.
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
That's bold, clear speech from one of the founders of the csa saying that it was, for all intents and purpose, founded because the north was threatening slavery as an institution, and also the new federal government had fewer tariffs. I don't see how much clearer it could be, really.

[-The West Coast-]

True, however it's also been shown throughout this thread not to be exclusively a symbol of slavery.

Sure, and the Nazi flag was not exclusively used as a symbol of anti-Semitism.

The swastika has been used for centuries prior to WW2 as a symbol of peace.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Sure, and the Nazi flag was not exclusively used as a symbol of anti-Semitism.

The swastika has been used for centuries prior to WW2 as a symbol of peace.

That's his point. Everyone immediately thinks "atrocity" when they see it, though, and that's why his comparison stands.

[Genivaria]

Those previous engagements were mostly about slavery as well. Bloody Kansas, for instance.

Andrew Jackson invaded the southern state of South Carolina during his presidency concerning tariffs and taxes. Not concerning slavery.

Wait, did you just say INVADED? Andrew Jackson was President between March 4, 1829 – March 4, 1837, the Civil War didn't start until 1861.
When the fuck was South Carolina its own country?

[Llamalandia]

Gosh, that's a funny thing to believe. A funny and very illogical thing at that. The flag of the Confederacy was not sewn together to solely say, "fuck niggers! yeehaw," but it was to defend their rights as men in the south to live their lives the way their fathers and their grandfathers lived. They fought for States' Rights most of all, and slavery was a secondary goal that wished to maintain as it was what made their economy function.

The more you speak the less you seem to say. It's evident at this point that you're either denying evidence or willfully ignorant of the facts, and I see no reason to continue until you actually just look up the cornerstone speech and read the contents. Or just look a few pages back where I clipped out the important bits.

Or how about this part of the cornerstone speech detailing a term limit for the CSA president. Limiting executive overreach is kinda relevant to today too come to think of it.

Another change in the constitution relates to the length of the tenure of the presidential office. In the new constitution it is six years instead of four, and the President rendered ineligible for a re-election. This is certainly a decidedly conservative change. It will remove from the incumbent all temptation to use his office or exert the powers confided to him for any objects of personal ambition. The only incentive to that higher ambition which should move and actuate one holding such high trusts in his hands, will be the good of the people, the advancement, prosperity, happiness, safety, honor, and true glory of the confederacy.

And of course it's interesting to note that the USA would later adopt a term limit of 2 four year presidential terms as well.