The Confederate battle flag

[Utceforp]

Lol

Good enough?

No. Not good enough. The pyramids served as the tombs of the pharaohs of the Egyptians made by Egyptian slaves who didn't benefit from them in any way.

Lol

Good enough?

Um, no. I don't agree that the blood, sweat, and tears of an enormous number of forced laborers working under the threat of death is worth some nice sightseeing. Again, I don't think you really understand what it means to be a slave at all.

Err, um...

Lol

Good enough?

*ahem*

[Scholmeria]

I agree entirely that the ownership of slaves by any individual is immoral, be they Union, Confederate, or otherwise.

So, why does nobody want to ban the Union flag yet the Confederate flag must be? Doube standards, eh?

[Arkinesia]

Don't forget, a rebellion that shot first, no less.

When they were asked nicely to leave? And were guaranteed cotton trade even with the hostilities?

You don't get special favors when you secede unless the original power grants those.

[Dyakovo]

So you don't see a very big moral difference between somebody who wants to own other people because they think they're inferior and somebody who wants them to be free? I recognize the influence of geography here, but I don't see how that changes the ethics of the situation.

Slavery (the non racist kind) is not a bad thing.

So how much do you cost?

[Dyakovo]

You can show me some evidence that slavery is somehow a great thing if you like, since at the moment I have absolutely zero faith in that claim. Do you really mean to say there's some sort of international conspiracy to cover up how nice American slavery was? Or any sort of slavery, for that matter?

Lol

Good enough?

The pyramids were built using skilled labor, i.e. not slaves.

[Getrektistan]

It might be, but I also think it's an enormous leap from a little bit of bias to the South becoming defensible.

Ok, but the Union history is official, the Southern version has any chance to go the public without being declared as racist by the establishment. It is in a much inferior position.

Well that's because they were racist. It's not as if that accusation came from nowhere. I'm well aware of the Southern version, and it hasn't convinced me.

Maybe the Native Americans thought that. Maybe it was actually true. Maybe they were simply abiding by 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. Either way, it doesn't negate the racism of the CSA.

But still the Natives though the Northerers were much more racist.

I disagree since they didn't own slaves, but even if they were, it doesn't make them any more immoral than the CSA, because the CSA was still a slave state.

Oh, I see what you mean now. No, it doesn't tell me something. I don't base my moral decisions on how a third party feels. I don't particularly know the motivation of those Native Americans, although I can certainly imagine a number of plausible possibilities that disagree with your conclusion. In any case, there is nothing that can negate the Confederate's fight to hold other people as property.

I rather hear opinion of Native Americans from them personally rather to have some mediators who think they think they know what is better for them.

Like I said, nothing can negate the abhorrent practice of slavery. If some Native Americans think that the CSA was an alright nation, they can think that, but it will only bring down my opinion of those individuals. Unless they or anybody else can explain to me exactly why I should defend a slave state, their opinion on the matter will not sway mine.

I doubt that, since many abolitionists were themselves black, but in any case, they fought against slavery while the Confederacy defended it.

So were slave owners.

True. But they owned slaves, and the abolitionists didn't, so again, I support the abolitionists.

I don't know that he said that, but whether or not he was racist is inconsequential.

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.

This is not racist to you?

That sounds very racist, yes. Lincoln also made declarations to the contrary, so his exact feelings on the matter are unclear, but in any case, racism is not the ultimate issue here, slavery is. Racism is terrible, but slavery is horrendous.

[West Afrika]

No. It represents hatred if you are wearing a white hood and saying "Down with n*ggers." NOT, if it's flying in a southern town's Founder's Parade.

It's a part of history, and our heritage.

[Getrektistan]

I agree entirely that the ownership of slaves by any individual is immoral, be they Union, Confederate, or otherwise.

So, why does nobody want to ban the Union flag yet the Confederate flag must be? Doube standards, eh?

The Union flag has significantly more history behind the Confederate flag. The CSA was created in the name of slavery, so it's much more understandable to want to ban their flag (not that I support banning their flag).

[Farnhamia]

I agree entirely that the ownership of slaves by any individual is immoral, be they Union, Confederate, or otherwise.

So, why does nobody want to ban the Union flag yet the Confederate flag must be? Doube standards, eh?

That's the thing, see, no one is seriously proposing the Confederate flag be banned. The discussion is whether it represents racism and hate. I personally think using it to symbolize "southern pride" (whatever that is) is misguided considering the racist uses to which the flag has been put.

And saying, "Yes, maybe the CSA was bad but so was the USA" doesn't invalidate the argument that the CSA flag is bad symbol. It's the tu quoque logical fallacy.

[Dyakovo]

No. It represents hatred if you are wearing a white hood and saying "Down with n*ggers." NOT, if it's flying in a southern town's Founder's Parade.

It's a part of history, and our heritage...

...of racism and treason.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I agree entirely that the ownership of slaves by any individual is immoral, be they Union, Confederate, or otherwise.

So, why does nobody want to ban the Union flag yet the Confederate flag must be? Doube standards, eh?

Because, as has been repeatedly stated (and I know this, since I've been the one stating it), the Union flag was not flown by people who were rebelling against England because they thought that their right to own slaves might be threatened at some point in the future.

Also, show me who in this thread is proposing that it be banned.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

I was half-joking when I mentioned the crusades! "Hurt by the truth"? Really? Though this isn't the thread to debate whether the crusades were justified, I think it's entirely reasonable to say that the Crusaders acted like barbarians and monsters all the while.

So were Muslims toward infidels but you hardly mention to demonize them in the same manner as the crusaders, instead there is this myth about the islamic Golden Age. That is the hypocricy of you left-wingers/liberals that I despise.

Oh good lord. Let's drop this. It's off-topic,and I'm not going to explain to you that in the real world you don't sink to the level of people you consider horrible without also being horrible.
(And you're really one to be talking about myths, mr. "The south didn't secede because of slavery")

[Roski]

When they were asked nicely to leave? And were guaranteed cotton trade even with the hostilities?

[citation needed]

During the four years of its existence under trial by war, the Confederate States of America asserted its independence and appointed dozens of diplomatic agents abroad. The United States government regarded the southern states in rebellion and so refused any formal recognition of their status.

Even before Fort Sumter, U.S. Secretary of State William H. Seward issued formal instructions to the American minister to the United Kingdom: Make "no expressions of harshness or disrespect, or even impatience concerning the seceding States, their agents, or their people, [those States] must always continue to be, equal and honored members of this Federal Union, [their citizens] still are and always must be our kindred and countrymen."[86]

The Confederacy started its existence as an agrarian economy with exports, to a world market, of cotton, and, to a lesser extent, tobacco and sugarcane

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America)

[Dyakovo]

I agree entirely that the ownership of slaves by any individual is immoral, be they Union, Confederate, or otherwise.

So, why does nobody want to ban the Union flag yet the Confederate flag must be? Doube standards, eh?

Who's suggesting it be banned?
I'm fine with it being flown. It is a quick and easy way to identify people I don't want to associate with.

[West Afrika]

No. It represents hatred if you are wearing a white hood and saying "Down with n*ggers." NOT, if it's flying in a southern town's Founder's Parade.

It's a part of history, and our heritage...

...of racism and treason.

So, pictures of Ed Snowden should be seen as symbols of "treason?"

The Unioners were also prejudiced a-holes.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

So, why does nobody want to ban the Union flag yet the Confederate flag must be? Doube standards, eh?

Who's suggesting it be banned.
I'm fine with it being flown. It is a quick and easy way to identify people I don't want to associate with.

One of the many unforeseen side benefits of freedom of speech.

[Dyakovo]

...of racism and treason.

So, pictures of Ed Snowden should be seen as symbols of "treason?"

Yes.

[Roski]

So, why does nobody want to ban the Union flag yet the Confederate flag must be? Doube standards, eh?

Because, as has been repeatedly stated (and I know this, since I've been the one stating it), the Union flag was not flown by people who were rebelling against England because they thought that their right to own slaves might be threatened at some point in the future.

You are right.

They started a fucking war over tea. Don't even try to explain that shit with morals.

[Farnhamia]

[citation needed]

During the four years of its existence under trial by war, the Confederate States of America asserted its independence and appointed dozens of diplomatic agents abroad. The United States government regarded the southern states in rebellion and so refused any formal recognition of their status.

Even before Fort Sumter, U.S. Secretary of State William H. Seward issued formal instructions to the American minister to the United Kingdom: Make "no expressions of harshness or disrespect, or even impatience concerning the seceding States, their agents, or their people, [those States] must always continue to be, equal and honored members of this Federal Union, [their citizens] still are and always must be our kindred and countrymen."[86]

The Confederacy started its existence as an agrarian economy with exports, to a world market, of cotton, and, to a lesser extent, tobacco and sugarcane

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America)

Name one country that recognized the Confederacy diplomatically.

[Dyakovo]

[citation needed]

During the four years of its existence under trial by war, the Confederate States of America asserted its independence and appointed dozens of diplomatic agents abroad. The United States government regarded the southern states in rebellion and so refused any formal recognition of their status.

Even before Fort Sumter, U.S. Secretary of State William H. Seward issued formal instructions to the American minister to the United Kingdom: Make "no expressions of harshness or disrespect, or even impatience concerning the seceding States, their agents, or their people, [those States] must always continue to be, equal and honored members of this Federal Union, [their citizens] still are and always must be our kindred and countrymen."[86]

The Confederacy started its existence as an agrarian economy with exports, to a world market, of cotton, and, to a lesser extent, tobacco and sugarcane

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America)

Your source doesn't support your claim.

[Farnhamia]

Because, as has been repeatedly stated (and I know this, since I've been the one stating it), the Union flag was not flown by people who were rebelling against England because they thought that their right to own slaves might be threatened at some point in the future.

You are right.

They started a fucking war over tea. Don't even try to explain that shit with morals.

Nice try. It was the tax on the tea, and other goods, and you know it.

[-The West Coast-]

No, it does not. The Confederate flag does not resemble hatred, racism or slavery. Ignoramuses without an understanding of intricate political affairs and historical events have managed to change the perception of the flag and the southern movement itself and they have convinced the world that the Civil War was solely founded on racism, hatred and slavery.

[Dyakovo]

Because, as has been repeatedly stated (and I know this, since I've been the one stating it), the Union flag was not flown by people who were rebelling against England because they thought that their right to own slaves might be threatened at some point in the future.

You are right.

They started a fucking war over tea.

No, they didn't.

[Getrektistan]

Because, as has been repeatedly stated (and I know this, since I've been the one stating it), the Union flag was not flown by people who were rebelling against England because they thought that their right to own slaves might be threatened at some point in the future.

You are right.

They started a fucking war over tea. Don't even try to explain that shit with morals.

They didn't start a war over tea, they started a war over the right to be represented; this is evidenced by the fact that they protested all sorts of things other than tea whose only common link was political representation.

The CSA, on the other hand, started a war over their ability to own slaves, and everything points to it.

[Farnhamia]

You are right.

They started a fucking war over tea. Don't even try to explain that shit with morals.

They didn't start a war over tea, they started a war over the right to be represented; this is evidenced by the fact that they protested all sorts of things other than tea whose only common link was political representation.

The CSA, on the other hand, started a war over their ability to own slaves, and everything points to it.

Points to it? They said so, over and over, in secession declaration after secession declaration.