The Confederate battle flag

[Aurora Novus]

Actually, I've always said that there is honor in fighting and dying for your beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs are. I wouldn't see a problem with laying the flag that symbolizes the ideals someone fought for on their coffin as you bury them, or laying it on their grave, or whatever.

Honoring someone for their sacrifice in battle isn't to say you support what they were fighting for. Rather, you're honoring their strength of will, their willingness to die for a belief they held so strongly. That is an honorable characteristic, regardless of the side it finds itself on.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Actually, I've always said that there is honor in fighting and dying for your beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs are. I wouldn't see a problem with laying the flag that symbolizes the ideals someone fought for on their coffin as you bury them, or laying it on their grave, or whatever.

Honoring someone for their sacrifice in battle isn't to say you support what they were fighting for. Rather, you're honoring their strength of will, their willingness to die for a belief they held so strongly. That is an honorable characteristic, regardless of the side it finds itself on.

CSA's next post will just be going "yeah, what he said" to this post. I'm calling it.

[TheConfederate States of America]

No and it's a group of flags.

The flags where put there by confederate veterans in the 30's in the memory of Lee.
Not permitting the flags to be displayed there is just like not alowing flags to be displayed at a confederate soldier's grave.

The people that wanted the flags gone have gotten their way for now.
But later on they'll want something else and then something else.
But there is going to be a protest there and even HK will be there.



Here's something that made me.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jSqt39vFM


http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/he ... o-stay.ece

How would you feel about German veterans putting Nazi flags on Rommel's grave?

Well that's a entirely different story.
One must think about why they are puting it there first.
And think "Are they saying Heil Hitler?" or are they saying "Rommel: a great general in our history"

But I think it's WAY different with the confederate battle flag.

[Vettrera]

How would you feel about German veterans putting Nazi flags on Rommel's grave?

Well that's a entirely different story.
One must think about why they are puting it there first.
And think "Are they saying Heil Hitler?" or are they saying "Rommel: a great general in our history"

But I think it's WAY different with the confederate battle flag.

Because they only advocated for denying the rights of a group of people and treating them as though they were less than human rather than killing them?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

How would you feel about German veterans putting Nazi flags on Rommel's grave?

Well that's a entirely different story.
One must think about why they are puting it there first.
And think "Are they saying Heil Hitler?" or are they saying "Rommel: a great general in our history"

But I think it's WAY different with the confederate battle flag.

Yes, because that's your ox getting gored.

(That's a metaphor, by the way. I know that you sometimes have trouble with them.)

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Actually, I've always said that there is honor in fighting and dying for your beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs are. I wouldn't see a problem with laying the flag that symbolizes the ideals someone fought for on their coffin as you bury them, or laying it on their grave, or whatever.

Honoring someone for their sacrifice in battle isn't to say you support what they were fighting for. Rather, you're honoring their strength of will, their willingness to die for a belief they held so strongly. That is an honorable characteristic, regardless of the side it finds itself on.

CSA's next post will just be going "yeah, what he said" to this post. I'm calling it.

How would you feel about German veterans putting Nazi flags on Rommel's grave?

Well that's a entirely different story.
One must think about why they are puting it there first.
And think "Are they saying Heil Hitler?" or are they saying "Rommel: a great general in our history"

But I think it's WAY different with the confederate battle flag.

Damn.

[Dakini]

Oh, well, now we're being particular about our "foreigners" are we?

I can go survey some Japanese people if you want.

No, I am suspicious of the claim that the view of one "foriegner", especially from a neighboring country, can adequetely express the view of "all foriegners"- Though I am sure that they would hold the same opinion in Western Europe, and most other foriegn nations.

I'm far from the only foreigner to express this opinion on the flag.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

No, I am suspicious of the claim that the view of one "foriegner", especially from a neighboring country, can adequetely express the view of "all foriegners"- Though I am sure that they would hold the same opinion in Western Europe, and most other foriegn nations.

I'm far from the only foreigner to express this opinion on the flag.

What matters is that the first guy said "any foreigner". Dakini, despite being not just any foreigner (you're a very specific foreigner), is a foreigner nonetheless, invalidating his point.

[Ifreann]

No, I am suspicious of the claim that the view of one "foriegner", especially from a neighboring country, can adequetely express the view of "all foriegners"- Though I am sure that they would hold the same opinion in Western Europe, and most other foriegn nations.

I'm far from the only foreigner to express this opinion on the flag.

Bloody foreigners. Staying where they are, expressing their opinions.

[Nazi Flower Power]

*shrugs* your loss.

Don't think Lee cares anymore.

The Cult of Lee is interesting.

So would the same logic apply to an ex-Nazi soldier buried in the US?

To be fair, that depends on whether the ex-Nazi was formerly a US soldier, surrendered his troops to the Allied forces and then spoke of setting aside differences and refused to abide the presence of anyone who spoke poorly of Eisenhower.

Granted, those last two parts are almost always forgotten by modern Lee fans. He wanted the surrendered southerners to show pride in the country they had rejoined, and was rather protective of Grant after the two had met and he had come to understand his opponent and his motivations.

I saw a quote from him from after the war -- I don't remember the exact phrasing, but he basically said it was in the South's best interest that they lost the war. I think he did learn from the experience of the war and dealing with the Confederate government and seeing the way Grant handled the surrender. Grant was so much more reasonable than the Confederate politicians.

What's funny is Johnston and Sherman hit it off too. Makes you wonder why Lee and Johnston waited so long to surrender if they liked Union generals so much...

[Nazi Flower Power]

No and it's a group of flags.

The flags where put there by confederate veterans in the 30's in the memory of Lee.
Not permitting the flags to be displayed there is just like not alowing flags to be displayed at a confederate soldier's grave.

The people that wanted the flags gone have gotten their way for now.
But later on they'll want something else and then something else.
But there is going to be a protest there and even HK will be there.



Here's something that made me.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jSqt39vFM


http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/he ... o-stay.ece

From that article

Doggett, a descendant of Confederate veterans, said last week he can honor his “ancestors and our Texas heritage without adopting displays that are divisive and hurtful to many of our neighbors.”

I like you, US rep. Lloyd Dogget!

Good for him.

[The Black Forrest]

From that article

Doggett, a descendant of Confederate veterans, said last week he can honor his “ancestors and our Texas heritage without adopting displays that are divisive and hurtful to many of our neighbors.”

I like you, US rep. Lloyd Dogget!

Good for him.

There are ways to work it out. Say replace the flags with crossed US and confederate flags as you see in books.

I suspect the "stonewall brigade" would be offended by that.....

[Dracoria]

To be fair, that depends on whether the ex-Nazi was formerly a US soldier, surrendered his troops to the Allied forces and then spoke of setting aside differences and refused to abide the presence of anyone who spoke poorly of Eisenhower.

Granted, those last two parts are almost always forgotten by modern Lee fans. He wanted the surrendered southerners to show pride in the country they had rejoined, and was rather protective of Grant after the two had met and he had come to understand his opponent and his motivations.

I saw a quote from him from after the war -- I don't remember the exact phrasing, but he basically said it was in the South's best interest that they lost the war. I think he did learn from the experience of the war and dealing with the Confederate government and seeing the way Grant handled the surrender. Grant was so much more reasonable than the Confederate politicians.

What's funny is Johnston and Sherman hit it off too. Makes you wonder why Lee and Johnston waited so long to surrender if they liked Union generals so much...

It's kind of weird reading about Confederate politics. They were virulently anti-party, so avoided the creation of opposing political parties. The result? No one could stand up to the existing politicians, so those who were in control just plain stayed in control. As a result, there was no tendency toward change, just a bull-headed attempt at doing things the same way that was doomed to failure. Davis had no competition, nor did the state governors or pretty much anyone in charge.

And on the other hand, yeah. Grant and Sherman were both dedicated toward ending the war as quickly as possible and didn't really care any for punishing those who had stopped fighting. You can see it in Sherman's field orders to not destroy anything in territories that offered no resistance. If there were no guerillas or bushwackers, then they'd just do light damage to railways and continue on, not touching the buildings, livestock or anything except as needed to secure provisions.

It's still rather touching to read of Johnston's cause of death. He had respect for Sherman, that's for sure.

[Nazi Flower Power]

It's kind of weird reading about Confederate politics. They were virulently anti-party, so avoided the creation of opposing political parties. The result? No one could stand up to the existing politicians, so those who were in control just plain stayed in control. As a result, there was no tendency toward change, just a bull-headed attempt at doing things the same way that was doomed to failure. Davis had no competition, nor did the state governors or pretty much anyone in charge.

They also didn't have elections as often, so even if there had been an opposition party, it's not something Davis would have had to worry about.

I actually hadn't realized they had such an anti-party thing until you brought it up in this thread. It kind of goes against the idea that there would be more freedom in the Confederacy than the Union, even for white people.

It's still rather touching to read of Johnston's cause of death. He had respect for Sherman, that's for sure.

I know.

It's hard not to admire the way a lot of these guys, on both sides, would stick to what they thought was right and proper even when it was dangerous, uncomfortable, etc. I am not a great admirer of Confederate generals, but Johnston was one of the more respectable ones.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Just wanted to say that during my sig edit, I noticed that my most posted-in thread changed from my own creation of "What Is The Republican Path To Victory?" (a contentious but good-natured thread that contained an astonishing amount of highly educational sources) to this one.

To quote Charlton Heston in his greatest role, "Damn you. Damn you all to hell."

[Dracoria]

Just wanted to say that during my sig edit, I noticed that my most posted-in thread changed from my own creation of "What Is The Republican Path To Victory?" (a contentious but good-natured thread that contained an astonishing amount of highly educational sources) to this one.

To quote Charlton Heston in his greatest role, "Damn you. Damn you all to hell."

Quite pleased to assist in drag you, kicking and screaming, into the fiery pits of arguing over a flag and its roots in slavery and treason!

[JesusOfNazareth]

It's kind of weird reading about Confederate politics. They were virulently anti-party, so avoided the creation of opposing political parties. The result? No one could stand up to the existing politicians, so those who were in control just plain stayed in control. As a result, there was no tendency toward change, just a bull-headed attempt at doing things the same way that was doomed to failure. Davis had no competition, nor did the state governors or pretty much anyone in charge.

They also didn't have elections as often, so even if there had been an opposition party, it's not something Davis would have had to worry about.

I actually hadn't realized they had such an anti-party thing until you brought it up in this thread. It kind of goes against the idea that there would be more freedom in the Confederacy than the Union, even for white people.

It's still rather touching to read of Johnston's cause of death. He had respect for Sherman, that's for sure.

I know.

It's hard not to admire the way a lot of these guys, on both sides, would stick to what they thought was right and proper even when it was dangerous, uncomfortable, etc. I am not a great admirer of Confederate generals, but Johnston was one of the more respectable ones.

Union or Confederate, what makes a civil war General, to use your term, "respectable"?

[Master Shake]

It's kind of weird reading about Confederate politics. They were virulently anti-party, so avoided the creation of opposing political parties. The result? No one could stand up to the existing politicians, so those who were in control just plain stayed in control. As a result, there was no tendency toward change, just a bull-headed attempt at doing things the same way that was doomed to failure. Davis had no competition, nor did the state governors or pretty much anyone in charge.

They also didn't have elections as often, so even if there had been an opposition party, it's not something Davis would have had to worry about.

I actually hadn't realized they had such an anti-party thing until you brought it up in this thread. It kind of goes against the idea that there would be more freedom in the Confederacy than the Union, even for white people.

Makes you wonder if the CSA would have become a dictatorship?

[Nazi Flower Power]

Just wanted to say that during my sig edit, I noticed that my most posted-in thread changed from my own creation of "What Is The Republican Path To Victory?" (a contentious but good-natured thread that contained an astonishing amount of highly educational sources) to this one.

To quote Charlton Heston in his greatest role, "Damn you. Damn you all to hell."

Does this mean CSA can call me a "damn Yankee" and it'll be accurate now?

Quite pleased to assist in drag you, kicking and screaming, into the fiery pits of arguing over a flag and its roots in slavery and treason!

At least nobody got shot. Last time we argued about that flag a bunch of people got shot.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

They also didn't have elections as often, so even if there had been an opposition party, it's not something Davis would have had to worry about.

I actually hadn't realized they had such an anti-party thing until you brought it up in this thread. It kind of goes against the idea that there would be more freedom in the Confederacy than the Union, even for white people.



I know.

It's hard not to admire the way a lot of these guys, on both sides, would stick to what they thought was right and proper even when it was dangerous, uncomfortable, etc. I am not a great admirer of Confederate generals, but Johnston was one of the more respectable ones.

Union or Confederate, what makes a civil war General, to use your term, "respectable"?

Hmmm. Honor, maybe? Showing respect to his enemies as well as his men? The things that would make any person respectable, I suppose. Owning a pocket watch?

[Nazi Flower Power]

They also didn't have elections as often, so even if there had been an opposition party, it's not something Davis would have had to worry about.

I actually hadn't realized they had such an anti-party thing until you brought it up in this thread. It kind of goes against the idea that there would be more freedom in the Confederacy than the Union, even for white people.



I know.

It's hard not to admire the way a lot of these guys, on both sides, would stick to what they thought was right and proper even when it was dangerous, uncomfortable, etc. I am not a great admirer of Confederate generals, but Johnston was one of the more respectable ones.

Union or Confederate, what makes a civil war General, to use your term, "respectable"?

Not a rabid Confederate ideologue who refused to accept defeat, competent at leading their troops, not in the habit of committing war crimes.

[Nazi Flower Power]

They also didn't have elections as often, so even if there had been an opposition party, it's not something Davis would have had to worry about.

I actually hadn't realized they had such an anti-party thing until you brought it up in this thread. It kind of goes against the idea that there would be more freedom in the Confederacy than the Union, even for white people.

Makes you wonder if the CSA would have become a dictatorship?

It wouldn't surprise me, especially with the popularity of fascism in the early 20th century.

[Dracoria]

They also didn't have elections as often, so even if there had been an opposition party, it's not something Davis would have had to worry about.

I actually hadn't realized they had such an anti-party thing until you brought it up in this thread. It kind of goes against the idea that there would be more freedom in the Confederacy than the Union, even for white people.

Makes you wonder if the CSA would have become a dictatorship?

I have a feeling Davis wouldn't have pulled a Cincinattus, and they didn't legislate any term limits, so...

[Master Shake]

Well if the South won we wouldn't have songs like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGVfW7i6Qyo

Unknown Hinson - A Smart Ass Yankee (In A Rebel Court)

[Roski]

Can this die pls?