The Confederate battle flag

[Gaelic Celtia]

But....but because he wasn't going to war to free the slaves as the main reason. Means the north was as bad as the south!

oh thats not the point youre trying to make? Because thats what it looks like to everyone else. If only someone actually formed an argument and expressed it well....ah one can dream.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

But....but because he wasn't going to war to free the slaves as the main reason. Means the north was as bad as the south!

Trust me, if a facepalm were an adequate reply, I'd be giving you entire posts of nothing but that. Actually stand your ground and argue your point, so long as your point is actually relevant to the conversation (Hint: "Lincoln didn't care about the slaves" is not relevant).

[Albul]

The South also fought to maintain its society, which changed radically after the South lost.

By the way, this is merely the battle flag.

The Stars and Bars (1st)

The Stainless Banner (2nd)

The Blood-Stained Banner (3rd)

For some reason, people do not attack the Stars and Bars or the Bonnie Blue flag, when they stood for the same institution of the old South (the somewhat feudalistic, agricultural society that depended on slavery).

[Edlichbury]

The South also fought to maintain its society, which changed radically after the South lost.

By the way, this is merely the battle flag.

The Stars and Bars (1st)
(Image)
The Stainless Banner (2nd)
(Image)
The Blood-Stained Banner (3rd)
(Image)

For some reason, people do not attack the Stars and Bars or the Bonnie Blue flag, when they stood for the same institution of the old South (the somewhat feudalistic, agricultural society that depended on slavery).

Its society of slavery.

[Port John]

I can't support a group that to defend the institution of slavery*, fought a brutal war over it, let somewhere upwards of six hundred thousand be killed, and then complained for eternity over their loss. Their is a point where a war is just too brutal to be allowed to continue, and the Confederacy obviously didn't care**. Especially considering your supporting the side that uses slaves, whilst the North had no love for slavery***.


*Even if you make your claims for states rights, I would argue that it was still not worth it
**Their was a full two years between Gettysburg and Appomattox court house
***Yes the North made no attempt to stop it while the South held congress, when the South lost its voting power they swiftly voted in the 13th amendment.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The South also fought to maintain its society, which changed radically after the South lost.

By the way, this is merely the battle flag.

The Stars and Bars (1st)
(Image)
The Stainless Banner (2nd)
(Image)
The Blood-Stained Banner (3rd)
(Image)

For some reason, people do not attack the Stars and Bars or the Bonnie Blue flag, when they stood for the same institution of the old South (the somewhat feudalistic, agricultural society that depended on slavery).

What aspect or aspects of this society were under threat?

[Dracoria]

Is anyone besides me that's been arguing with CSA actually a Yankee? I hadn't really thought about this, but now that you mention it, it does seem like a lot of the thread is him arguing with people who aren't even Yankees.

Delawarean. Slave state pre-war, went with the North because we knew who had the money and if there's one thing Delaware wants, it's your money. As far as breeding, as of the ACW it would've been a mix of nutty southwestern and western pioneers, some Virginians, some New Englanders and a Cherokee or two. Maybe some others, I don't know, family tree's all over the place.

[Dracoria]

True. And I'd be more sympathetic if the South's attempts to do so weren't based upon enslavement of their fellow man.

I would as well but after living in the South for so long you can't help but grow to love some parts of its culture.

The food. It's all about the food. If there's some way to fry something, any way at all, you can have it down there.

Really? Lincoln was a dictator? I thought for sure he was democratically elected and the south just threw a bitch fit over it.
And the secession was not peaceful when the south goes and occupies federal forts with their militias.

To be fair, dictator does not necessarily mean the same as modern despot (see: Roman Republic). Lincoln did take extraordinary measures, suspending Habeus Corpus and the like. However, one has to take into account the fact that the Union, which was not nearly as tightly bound as it is today, was in the process of quite literally falling to pieces and more than a handful of pro-secessionist leaders remained in what was left. Plus, it isn't like the Cofederacy did any better in maintaining the Constitution.

Plus, the attack on Fort Sumter was an idiotic, idiotic move. The more intelligent Southern leaders wanted to wait for the Federals to shoot first, Lincoln and his best advisors wanted to wait for the Secessionists to shoot first. They both knew whoever threw the first cannon shell would lose some of their moral high ground (not that the Secessionists had a lot of other high ground to work with). South Carolina shot first. Their loss.

There is this guy called Napoleon or King George if your hardcore American in the 1800s...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III ... ed_Kingdom

We're aware of both. People stopped caring about George once he died, and Napoleon's antics didn't really hit the United States too hard.

Napolean sold us the Louisiana Purchase, which opened up the space for plenty of new states. As a matter of fact, these new states' role as free or slave is what led to the Missouri Compromise and eventually such incidents as Bleeding Kansas and can be thought of as half of the reason for the American Civil War.

[Dakini]

How about the Japanese Flag? People under that banner killed millions in the rest of Asia in an attempt to unite the Asian people under one banner?

You do know that the Japanese imperial flag (the one with all the rays coming out of it) is no longer used and kinda forbidden (or at least severely frowned upon) to wave in Japan for precisely that reason, right?

How about the Hammer and Sickel. Stalin under that flag killed more than Hitler and created the gulag, an inhumane jail that has caused medical complications and arguably caused the death of millions. How about the British Flag? The British ruled half of Africa and India. They discriminated the people there and violently put down many people? Why aren't you calling the British Flag racist? Every flag has something ugly under it, and we should accept that as a fact and realize that the Confederate Flag is not a symbol of hate, but of many things.

The Confederate Flag is much more like the Swastika than it is like any of those other flags you listed. It only existed while this part of the USA was having a tantrum because they maybe weren't going to get to own people with a different skin colour. The British have done many things (and not all of them under the Union Jack) and the USSR existed for quite a long time, doing many things. The Confederacy only existed for a short period of time and it only existed for racist reasons.

[Gaelic Celtia]

The South also fought to maintain its society, which changed radically after the South lost.

By the way, this is merely the battle flag.

The Stars and Bars (1st)
(Image)
The Stainless Banner (2nd)
(Image)
The Blood-Stained Banner (3rd)
(Image)

For some reason, people do not attack the Stars and Bars or the Bonnie Blue flag, when they stood for the same institution of the old South (the somewhat feudalistic, agricultural society that depended on slavery).

What aspect or aspects of this society were under threat?

Aristocratic slave ownership of course. And their agricultural society, which was, shocker, dependent on slavery.

[Xsyne]

The OP did..at least as far as we can tell. When we state that it is a horrid rebellion all we have gotten is copy pasta of Northern racism and criticisms of Lincoln.

Saying the north had its own problems doesnt mean the south is now good.

The shit the Yankees did to the south makes the Nazis look like 8 year school girls.
If I was a confederate officer I would have KILLED EVERY yankee soldier I could get my hands on.

Kid, if we what we did to the South made the Nazis look like eight year old girls, you wouldn't be posting this because we wouldn't have left a goddamn soul alive.

[Dracoria]

The OP did..at least as far as we can tell. When we state that it is a horrid rebellion all we have gotten is copy pasta of Northern racism and criticisms of Lincoln.

Saying the north had its own problems doesnt mean the south is now good.

The shit the Yankees did to the south makes the Nazis look like 8 year school girls.
If I was a confederate officer I would have KILLED EVERY yankee soldier I could get my hands on.

If you were a Confederate officer who did that, your own commanders and subordinates would have done you in. There was still a sense of kinship between Northern and Southern officers and soldiers in those days, especially any time one or the other didn't have a gun in their hands. You don't seem to be aware of that.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I would as well but after living in the South for so long you can't help but grow to love some parts of its culture.

The food. It's all about the food. If there's some way to fry something, any way at all, you can have it down there.

Really? Lincoln was a dictator? I thought for sure he was democratically elected and the south just threw a bitch fit over it.
And the secession was not peaceful when the south goes and occupies federal forts with their militias.

To be fair, dictator does not necessarily mean the same as modern despot (see: Roman Republic). Lincoln did take extraordinary measures, suspending Habeus Corpus and the like. However, one has to take into account the fact that the Union, which was not nearly as tightly bound as it is today, was in the process of quite literally falling to pieces and more than a handful of pro-secessionist leaders remained in what was left. Plus, it isn't like the Cofederacy did any better in maintaining the Constitution.

Plus, the attack on Fort Sumter was an idiotic, idiotic move. The more intelligent Southern leaders wanted to wait for the Federals to shoot first, Lincoln and his best advisors wanted to wait for the Secessionists to shoot first. They both knew whoever threw the first cannon shell would lose some of their moral high ground (not that the Secessionists had a lot of other high ground to work with). South Carolina shot first. Their loss.

We're aware of both. People stopped caring about George once he died, and Napoleon's antics didn't really hit the United States too hard.

Napolean sold us the Louisiana Purchase, which opened up the space for plenty of new states. As a matter of fact, these new states' role as free or slave is what led to the Missouri Compromise and eventually such incidents as Bleeding Kansas and can be thought of as half of the reason for the American Civil War.

Hadn't thought about it from that perspective. Damn you, Napoleon!

[Gaelic Celtia]

You show major bratish contempt by calling those who do not agree with you Yankees and brainwashed. Your debate strategy is running in circles and repeating things that people have already shot down, and when evidence is presented you go "Nuh-uh, Bias!" Or "No, you". While at the same time ignoring historical facts people from other countries and even your very own precious South acknowledge as true. Until you learn to act like a grownup and how to debate, our words shall fall on ears plugged by immaturity, slave-picked cotton, and a flag of a nation founded by violence on disgusting ideals.

Is anyone besides me that's been arguing with CSA actually a Yankee? I hadn't really thought about this, but now that you mention it, it does seem like a lot of the thread is him arguing with people who aren't even Yankees.

Im half european and my american mothers half of the family fought for the south. And I live in Missouri, so nope.

[Dracoria]

Napolean sold us the Louisiana Purchase, which opened up the space for plenty of new states. As a matter of fact, these new states' role as free or slave is what led to the Missouri Compromise and eventually such incidents as Bleeding Kansas and can be thought of as half of the reason for the American Civil War.

Hadn't thought about it from that perspective. Damn you, Napoleon!

Not that Napolean was some supervillain (or superantihero) who knew that was going to occur and was gleefully following the gradual news from the US during his remaining years in exile with an eye toward what would come even after his death. Although I'm copyrighting this and selling it to the History Channel now.

[Port John]

Is anyone besides me that's been arguing with CSA actually a Yankee? I hadn't really thought about this, but now that you mention it, it does seem like a lot of the thread is him arguing with people who aren't even Yankees.

Im half european and my american mothers half of the family fought for the south. And I live in Missouri, so nope.

I'm a North Virginian born in Georgia, North Virginia was also where all the big battles were. It of course joined the South.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Hadn't thought about it from that perspective. Damn you, Napoleon!

Not that Napolean was some supervillain (or superantihero) who knew that was going to occur and was gleefully following the gradual news from the US during his remaining years in exile with an eye toward what would come even after his death. Although I'm copyrighting this and selling it to the History Channel now.

Toss in the possibility of extraterrestrial origins and call it NapALIEN just to ensure the sale.

[Dracoria]

Not that Napolean was some supervillain (or superantihero) who knew that was going to occur and was gleefully following the gradual news from the US during his remaining years in exile with an eye toward what would come even after his death. Although I'm copyrighting this and selling it to the History Channel now.

Toss in the possibility of extraterrestrial origins and call it NapALIEN just to ensure the sale.

Nah, saving that part for if I really need a little bit more to make the sale. Can't show them all the cards up front.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Toss in the possibility of extraterrestrial origins and call it NapALIEN just to ensure the sale.

Nah, saving that part for if I really need a little bit more to make the sale. Can't show them all the cards up front.

Fine, but if they use it, I get points.

[Distruzio]

Correct. Absolutely.



I have minor quibbles with this... but they aren't necessary and don't jeopardize your overall point.



I saw a quote yesterday at the doctor that comes to mind (as a pro-Confederate sympathizer):

The trick to acceptance is the realization that those [horrible things you've done] may be a part of your history but they never define your destiny.

The Confederacy lost. It's high time folks let her die.

I'm pretty sure more then just one percent of the south had slaves.If it was only one percent I don't think the south would have rebelled because it wouldn't have impacted their economy as much...What people forget is that the south was primarily an agrarian society that had some factories, but nothing close to what the North had...

Also I think it is a good thing to remember the past so we don't repeat it. It is also good to remember that the southerners ancestors fought for what they believed in. If America ever falls into an Authoritarian style goverment you will want the South to stand up and fight since people in California and New York probably wont do shit because how we really don't care anymore. All the OC cares about is the size of your wallet and if you have the newest Iphone 6 or 7 or whatever the kids have nowadays...

... the "OC"?

Is that younger generation slang for something? I may be too old to get it.

Aside from that, I rather doubt the rest of the nation needs the South as much as southerners like to pretend they do. Of course, I also believe that about the rest of the world - that the US citizens have convinced themselves of their value so much so that it legitimates asshattery at every turn.

[Distruzio]

Again, read my response above.

You're smarter than this. I know it. The secession documents were declarations by individual states outlining their reasons for secession. The cornerstone speech was delivered by an anti-confederate pro-union slaver - thus it's obvious why he would make that a part of his lecture. He was a part of that which was threatened by the Lincoln administration yet felt his livelihood was more secure within the Union. Regardless, the actual participants in the war never once cited slavery as a cause for war between them. Never once.

Slavery was the reason the northern states rejected appeals to constitutional law when the southern held union attempted to coerce them into perpetuating the institution. Frustration with this repeated rejection of the supreme law brought the argument to a head when despite southern domination of the government itself, public opinion upheld the northern states interpretation of the proper foundation of law - Union law. Thus secession followed.

I mean, if I were to follow your logic of A leads to B followed by C; there for A causes C, then I must assume that northern appeal to a law higher than the Constitution caused the way. After all, northern states were making the states rights argument as late as 1859. Therefore, states rights caused the war.

Right?

But shall we take this further? I mean, since the Founders were each slavers then it's obvious that the Founders caused the war, right? Have to appeal to that lowest denominator.

Whatever Alexander Stephens might have been in the run up to the war, at the time that he gave the speech, he was the Vice-President of the Confederate States of America, and their official representative. Not only did he state that slavery was the immediate cause of the war, he thoroughly defended the institution.

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.] This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North who still cling to these errors with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics.

At any rate, the logic is straightforward: The South not only wished to preserve the institution of slavery, they wished to expand it westward. Popular opinion, as you state, was against slavery. This led to the election of Lincoln, who was less willing than his predecessors to bend over backwards to appease the South, but was willing to find a more workable compromise than the Missouri Compromise. When Lincoln was elected, the south bolted due to his anti-slavery views despite his protests that he had no desire to end it.


Also, while I'm touched by your confidence in my intelligence, I make no claim to any great insight. I do, however, believe that both The Cat Tribe and Alien Space Bats have rather remarkable insight into this matter. The Cat Tribe in particular has some interesting points regarding what those who were actually fighting the war thought that it was all about.

EDIT: Some more from ASB

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=88157&p=4251648&hilit=slavery#p4251648

And, of course, what may be seen as his magnum opus.

viewtopic.php?p=9299134#p9299134

Indeed, I've butted heads with both of them. And they're wonderful debaters. They're each quite aware of my affection for them and have admitted that my perspective leads one to immense degrees of frustration. Why? Because I adhere to the strictest definition of words. This leads one to admit repeatedly what the Confederacy was and was not - what she did and did not. Thus my statements, despite the accuracy of your quotation about the Vice President and his views, stands true and justified. After all.... when was the last time you considered the words of Biden or Cheney before him appropriately representative of the United States? You never have. No one has. In the history of ever except when it becomes convenient to placate those too stupid to understand that war is never between good guys and bad guys.

I know you better than that. You're sticking to this whole theme because it may just lead someone to question the morality of the war on the part of the Union in the first place (which would, truth be told, be silly as the Union was completely justified morally). The fact that someone might stop and think about a thing is frightening when that thing involves America's sordid history with slavery. It might challenge the understanding that the country is great.

It ain't. You know this. I know this. But the common denominator?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I'm pretty sure more then just one percent of the south had slaves.If it was only one percent I don't think the south would have rebelled because it wouldn't have impacted their economy as much...What people forget is that the south was primarily an agrarian society that had some factories, but nothing close to what the North had...

Also I think it is a good thing to remember the past so we don't repeat it. It is also good to remember that the southerners ancestors fought for what they believed in. If America ever falls into an Authoritarian style goverment you will want the South to stand up and fight since people in California and New York probably wont do shit because how we really don't care anymore. All the OC cares about is the size of your wallet and if you have the newest Iphone 6 or 7 or whatever the kids have nowadays...

... the "OC"?

Is that younger generation slang for something? I may be too old to get it.

Aside from that, I rather doubt the rest of the nation needs the South as much as southerners like to pretend they do. Of course, I also believe that about the rest of the world - that the US citizens have convinced themselves of their value so much so that it legitimates asshattery at every turn.

I believe that "The OC" stands for "Orange County", and to be fair, his characterization isn't entirely incorrect.

[Dracoria]

Nah, saving that part for if I really need a little bit more to make the sale. Can't show them all the cards up front.

Fine, but if they use it, I get points.

Sure. Little do you know I'll use my alternate plans of linking him to the rise of the Nazis to make the sale instead.

[Dakini]

I'm pretty sure more then just one percent of the south had slaves.If it was only one percent I don't think the south would have rebelled because it wouldn't have impacted their economy as much...What people forget is that the south was primarily an agrarian society that had some factories, but nothing close to what the North had...

Also I think it is a good thing to remember the past so we don't repeat it. It is also good to remember that the southerners ancestors fought for what they believed in. If America ever falls into an Authoritarian style goverment you will want the South to stand up and fight since people in California and New York probably wont do shit because how we really don't care anymore. All the OC cares about is the size of your wallet and if you have the newest Iphone 6 or 7 or whatever the kids have nowadays...

... the "OC"?

Is that younger generation slang for something? I may be too old to get it.

Aside from that, I rather doubt the rest of the nation needs the South as much as southerners like to pretend they do. Of course, I also believe that about the rest of the world - that the US citizens have convinced themselves of their value so much so that it legitimates asshattery at every turn.

OC = Orange County


Don't mind Master Shake, she's just annoyed with other teenagers and assumes that adults in her area (and NY, because those are totally the only places in the USA that aren't in the South) are all the same as the teenagers, but that adults in other places are totally not annoying at all.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Whatever Alexander Stephens might have been in the run up to the war, at the time that he gave the speech, he was the Vice-President of the Confederate States of America, and their official representative. Not only did he state that slavery was the immediate cause of the war, he thoroughly defended the institution.



At any rate, the logic is straightforward: The South not only wished to preserve the institution of slavery, they wished to expand it westward. Popular opinion, as you state, was against slavery. This led to the election of Lincoln, who was less willing than his predecessors to bend over backwards to appease the South, but was willing to find a more workable compromise than the Missouri Compromise. When Lincoln was elected, the south bolted due to his anti-slavery views despite his protests that he had no desire to end it.


Also, while I'm touched by your confidence in my intelligence, I make no claim to any great insight. I do, however, believe that both The Cat Tribe and Alien Space Bats have rather remarkable insight into this matter. The Cat Tribe in particular has some interesting points regarding what those who were actually fighting the war thought that it was all about.

EDIT: Some more from ASB

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=88157&p=4251648&hilit=slavery#p4251648

And, of course, what may be seen as his magnum opus.

viewtopic.php?p=9299134#p9299134

Indeed, I've butted heads with both of them. And they're wonderful debaters. They're each quite aware of my affection for them and have admitted that my perspective leads one to immense degrees of frustration. Why? Because I adhere to the strictest definition of words. This leads one to admit repeatedly what the Confederacy was and was not - what she did and did not. Thus my statements, despite the accuracy of your quotation about the Vice President and his views, stands true and justified. After all.... when was the last time you considered the words of Biden or Cheney before him appropriately representative of the United States? You never have. No one has. In the history of ever except when it becomes convenient to placate those too stupid to understand that war is never between good guys and bad guys.

I know you better than that. You're sticking to this whole theme because it may just lead someone to question the morality of the war on the part of the Union in the first place (which would, truth be told, be silly as the Union was completely justified morally). The fact that someone might stop and think about a thing is frightening when that thing involves America's sordid history with slavery. It might challenge the understanding that the country is great.

It ain't. You know this. I know this. But the common denominator?

You could have used a better example than Cheney, as he largely directed U.S. foreign policy for Bush's first term and most of his second term, but I'll let that go. I consider the statements of fact on the part of Biden when he is discussing official matters to reflect White House policy unless he specifically states that he is expressing a personal view (as he did in the marriage equality debate), or if the White House issues a statement to the contrary.

The morality of the United States regarding our involvement in the Civil War is not in question. The topic was whether or not the Confederate battle flag could be fairly seen as a racist symbol, and I stated that due to the motivations of the South when it came to secession being that of a desire to continue the practice of slavery in the face of what they saw as an administration hostile to their viewpoints, it could fairly be seen as a racist symbol. I would say that if the motivation of the South regarding secession was NOT the desire to maintain (and eventually expand) slavery, then the flag would fairly not be seen as a racist symbol. However, that was their greatest motivation, and the flag is therefore a racist symbol.