The Confederate battle flag

[Republic of Coldwater]

The Confederate Battle Flag was the flag used by the CSA during the American Civil War. They fought for numerous reasons. While the flag we all know now (the cross with the star) was only used by 1/3rd of the Confederate Troops, while the other 2/3 used the Bars and Stars or the Blood Stained Flag, not the Cross flag, the Cross flag has been the most iconic. This has generated some controversy however. Some say that it is a flag of hate against blacks, while others say that it represents States Right, the culture and Heritage of the South or other things.

My opinion

Note: I am not a racist, I have friends of many races

I honestly don't find it as an overly racist symbol. Sure, some racist organizations like the KKK use the Confederate Flag, but they also use the American Flag, and we aren't trying to ban the American flag. The cross meant that the federal government isn't intruding on them, and the stars represent the Confederate States. The meaning by just looking at the flag means that the federal government won't intrude on the rights of Confederate States, it has no references to slavery or racism. This makes a good flag to represent States Rights and rebellion. The South is also culturally different than the north, with different kinds of food, accents, slang, wear, industry. It would make sense for a flag to represent the south, which is distinctly different than the north. The South fought for numerous reasons, not just slavery. We have exaggerated the importance of slavery in the South's Cause to fight the war to the point where people think that slavery was the only reason why. Many Southerners were not happy with the Tariffs Lincoln set in (the South was agrarian, and newer, non-agrarian stuff had to be imported, and tariffs made them more expensive, some, yes, did want the continuation of slavery and did fight for that reason, while others were fighting because they want a different nation. I am not trying to say that the Confederates were not fighting to keep slavery, I am saying that slavery wasn't the only reason why the Confederates fought, there were numerous reasons.

Do you think the Confederate Flag, is it a symbol of Southern Pride and Heritage? Or States Rights? Or does it mean racism and slavery?

[United commonwealth of ayrshire]

The Confederate Battle Flag was the flag used by the CSA during the American Civil War. They fought for numerous reasons. While the flag we all know now (the cross with the star) was only used by 1/3rd of the Confederate Troops, while the other 2/3 used the Bars and Stars or the Blood Stained Flag, not the Cross flag, the Cross flag has been the most iconic. This has generated some controversy however. Some say that it is a flag of hate against blacks, while others say that it represents States Right, the culture and Heritage of the South or other things.

My opinion

Note: I am not a racist, I have friends of many races

I honestly don't find it as an overly racist symbol. Sure, some racist organizations like the KKK use the Confederate Flag, but they also use the American Flag, and we aren't trying to ban the American flag. The cross meant that the federal government isn't intruding on them, and the stars represent the Confederate States. The meaning by just looking at the flag means that the federal government won't intrude on the rights of Confederate States, it has no references to slavery or racism. This makes a good flag to represent States Rights and rebellion. The South is also culturally different than the north, with different kinds of food, accents, slang, wear, industry. It would make sense for a flag to represent the south, which is distinctly different than the north. The South fought for numerous reasons, not just slavery. We have exaggerated the importance of slavery in the South's Cause to fight the war to the point where people think that slavery was the only reason why. Many Southerners were not happy with the Tariffs Lincoln set in (the South was agrarian, and newer, non-agrarian stuff had to be imported, and tariffs made them more expensive, some, yes, did want the continuation of slavery and did fight for that reason, while others were fighting because they want a different nation. I am not trying to say that the Confederates were not fighting to keep slavery, I am saying that slavery wasn't the only reason why the Confederates fought, there were numerous reasons.

Do you think the Confederate Flag, is it a symbol of Southern Pride and Heritage? Or States Rights? Or does it mean racism and slavery?

We've already had this discussion on this forum

[Seaxeland]

No, it represents treachery. It should be destroyed.

[Lindengau]

It's a symbol of Southern heritage and states' rights. The racism is secondary nonsense that got tacked on later.

[Tel]

It's a symbol of Southern heritage and states' rights. The racism is secondary nonsense that got tacked on later.

It's an outdated emblem of a pathetic bureaucratic regime that ran on bigotry and the suffering of other human beings, it should be burned for what it flew for and forgotten for the cowards that flew it.

[Papait]

Well if the Confederate Flag represents hate adn rcsim.
Then the flag of the union must represent genocide.
And i guess the flag of the United states too, along with oppression and racism.
And the soviet flag represents killing political opponents and oppression right?
The belgian flag represents plundering the Congo?

Flags do not represent what a country does bad, but what it does good.
Otherwise it would be pretty weird to wave an american flag around, or hoist the israeli flag.
All countries have done bad things (some more than others, im looking at you India, United States, Saudi Arabia and Israel)
but saying that the flag represents a countries crimes is just silly

[Iron Confederation]

Is the flag itself racist? I would say no. It's just a symbol.

However, like any symbol it can easily be a rallying point for a cause, including racism. So... yes?

I would say that most of the time I see it used in the rural South, it's not really trying to promote racism. It's generally more of a regional pride thing. Even if it is used by racists a lot, that wouldn't be its primary symbolic message. The primary message would be about Southern pride and Southern values.

[Iron Confederation]

It's a symbol of Southern heritage and states' rights. The racism is secondary nonsense that got tacked on later.

It's an outdated emblem of a pathetic bureaucratic regime that ran on bigotry and the suffering of other human beings, it should be burned for what it flew for and forgotten for the cowards that flew it.

Rebelling against the government is cowardice?

I guess the entire United States are cowards then for revolting against the British Empire.

[Hotel Moskva]

The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.

[The New Lowlands]

The flag carries severe connotations of racism, as it was used in the defence and representation of a régime which quite explicitly advocated not just segregation but slavery in the face of industrial developments that were rendering slave labour obsolete as well as despite the fact that just about any reasonable person could see they were in the wrong. It is not inherently representative of hate- to grant such characteristics to a (in my opinion) uninspiring collection of patterned colours would be odd- but context, as always, matters.

The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.

The Hammer and Sickle was not exclusively in use by the Soviet Union. The Confederate Flag was exclusively in use by the Confederate States.

[Tel]

The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.

A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.

Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?

The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.

[Papait]

The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.

A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.

Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?

The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.

so you wanna say that the union is better?

[The New Lowlands]

A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.

Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?

The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.

so you wanna say that the union is better?

You want to say it wasn't?

[Appalachian United]

I'm from Eastern Kentucky and see the flag everywhere. In my opinion, I believe that it represents the South and it's values as a whole and is a staple of Southern Culture. I'm not a racist person as well and I'm completely against it, but racism still lingers where I live, and at times, it can be very annoying, but very few racist people from where I live actually use it as a symbol of racism. So I guess it can be whatever you want it to be.

[Hotel Moskva]

The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.

A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.

Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?

The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.

Every nation has done bad things and endorsed horrid philosophies. Do you want to fly the American flag, when it was the one that murdered so many Indians? Do you wish to fly a Belgian flag when so many Congolese were killed under it? Same applies to the British, French, and the list goes on and on. The flag represents veterans and ancestors who died fighting for what they believed in, Southerners have the right to fly it in respect to their ancestors and heritage, regardless of what policies the nation endorsed.

[Papait]

so you wanna say that the union is better?

You want to say it wasn't?

i think betraying the natives that allied with you by killing them after they outlived their use.
Forcing thesouth to expensive bad quality stuff from you, when they want to buy good quality and heap products from england.
And acting like the savior of the black, while you don't really care about slavery.
They only opposed slavery to attract freemen (only those in the north, cause most freemen in the south had farms and even held slaves sometimes themselves) to fight at their side, in the war to force the south to buy stuff from them. Thats basicly why the north was fighting, not because of "freedom"

Thats in my opinion about as bad as slavery.
Because while some slave owners were absolutely terrible, there were also cases of plantations where slaves had it much better than the average worker.

[The New Lowlands]

A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.

Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?

The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.

Every nation has done bad things and endorsed horrid philosophies. Do you want to fly the American flag, when it was the one that murdered so many Indians? Do you wish to fly a Belgian flag when so many Congolese were killed under it? Same applies to the British, French, and the list goes on and on. The flag represents veterans and ancestors who died fighting for what they believed in, Southerners have the right to fly it in respect to their ancestors and heritage, regardless of what policies the nation endorsed.

To be fair to the Belgians, most of the killed Congolese were murdered under the flag of the Roi des Belges, not of the Kingdom.

They have the 'right' to fly it, by all means. It just means that we'll assume they're bigots.

[Sulania]

The Hammer and Sickle led to murder, genocide, and violation of basic human rights yet it is flown around worldwide today without complaint. I believe that the Confederate Flag, which was a rallying cause for state's rights and liberties, is hardly a messenger of hate. It is an integral part of Southern History and Heritage, and if they wish to fly it around as a symbol of that history and heritage, that is perfectly fine with me.

A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.

Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?

The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.

Why is it that you seem to think that just because a culture did bad things means we must destroy everything that represents it?

No one is saying that slavery was good, and that's why we should keep the flag. No people are saying we should keep it because it represents a culture. All cultures did good and bad things. I could sit here and say that we should burn the American Flag because America is a hypocritical imperialistic nation. But, no.

We could sit here and say that what the South did was bad, but that is not proper cause for destroying a symbol which is meant to represent States Rights and an entire culture.

[Ifreann]

People wanting to publicly associate themselves with the Confederacy are obviously pro-slavery racists.

[Papait]

Every nation has done bad things and endorsed horrid philosophies. Do you want to fly the American flag, when it was the one that murdered so many Indians? Do you wish to fly a Belgian flag when so many Congolese were killed under it? Same applies to the British, French, and the list goes on and on. The flag represents veterans and ancestors who died fighting for what they believed in, Southerners have the right to fly it in respect to their ancestors and heritage, regardless of what policies the nation endorsed.

To be fair to the Belgians, most of the killed Congolese were murdered under the flag of the Roi des Belges, not of the Kingdom.

They have the 'right' to fly it, by all means. It just means that we'll assume they're bigots.

altright diffrent example, dutch flag for plundering what would one day become new York

[Hotel Moskva]

Every nation has done bad things and endorsed horrid philosophies. Do you want to fly the American flag, when it was the one that murdered so many Indians? Do you wish to fly a Belgian flag when so many Congolese were killed under it? Same applies to the British, French, and the list goes on and on. The flag represents veterans and ancestors who died fighting for what they believed in, Southerners have the right to fly it in respect to their ancestors and heritage, regardless of what policies the nation endorsed.

To be fair to the Belgians, most of the killed Congolese were murdered under the flag of the Roi des Belges, not of the Kingdom.

They have the 'right' to fly it, by all means. It just means that we'll assume they're bigots.

Yes, yes, you got me on the Belgian one but what about all the other examples?

You have the right to fly the American flag, but since you do that means I am going to assume you are an Anti-Native American bigot.
Perfect logic indeed.

[Iron Confederation]

I have to ask this question: how many of you are from the South and actually see the flag in use?

It's easy to dismiss it as racist evil when you're from a different region of the US.

[The New Lowlands]

You want to say it wasn't?

i think betraying the natives that allied with you by killing them after they outlived their use.
Forcing thesouth to expensive bad quality stuff from you, when they want to buy good quality and heap products from england.
And acting like the savior of the black, while you don't really care about slavery.
They only opposed slavery to attract freemen (only those in the north, cause most freemen in the south had farms and even held slaves sometimes themselves) to fight at their side, in the war to force the south to buy stuff from them. Thats basicly why the north was fighting, not because of "freedom"

Thats in my opinion about as bad as slavery.
Because while some slave owners were absolutely terrible, there were also cases of plantations where slaves had it much better than the average worker.

The union also fought to free Europe and much of Asia from tyranny, alleviated the hunger and poverty of millions, and pushed the boundaries of science for the world's benefit. You take the good with the bad. It just so happens that the Confederacy's "bad" outweighs their "good" by a far, far, far greater margin than that of the Union's "bad" outweighs the Union's "good."

[Alyakia]

A heritage of the selling of human beings, forced labor, rape, murder and bigotry.

Yes, that's a heritage you want flying over your head, isn't it?

The Hammer and Sickle is no better. That much you're right on.

Why is it that you seem to think that just because a culture did bad things means we must destroy everything that represents it?

No one is saying that slavery was good, and that's why we should keep the flag. No people are saying we should keep it because it represents a culture. All cultures did good and bad things. I could sit here and say that we should burn the American Flag because America is a hypocritical imperialistic nation. But, no.

We could sit here and say that what the South did was bad, but that is not proper cause for destroying a symbol which is meant to represent States Rights and an entire culture.

if a culture decided they wanted to adopt the flag of "that one state that couldn't shut up about slavery" as their symbol then that is quite dodgy and i'm not sure why i should care that much, perhaps they should choose a new symbol or question precisely why they choose and continue to choose that one in the first place. if someone decided they wanted to adopt the nazi flag and say it represents them then shouted DRESDEN everytime you called them out on it i'd be just as sympathetic.

[The New Lowlands]

To be fair to the Belgians, most of the killed Congolese were murdered under the flag of the Roi des Belges, not of the Kingdom.

They have the 'right' to fly it, by all means. It just means that we'll assume they're bigots.

Yes, yes, you got me on the Belgian one but what about all the other examples?

You have the right to fly the American flag, but since you do that means I am going to assume you are an Anti-Native American bigot.
Perfect logic indeed.

You have the right to make that assumption. It wouldn't make sense, because unlike the Confederate flag, which as I've mentioned carries connotations of racism/bigotry, the Union flag (at least on this side of the atlantic) only carries connotations of patriotism and poor public education.