Diskusi Berbahasa Indonesia | Indonesian Thread

[Oceasia]

Indonesia is confusing to me. On one hand they have a history of tolerance with hundreds of cultures and religions living side-by-side. But on the other hand it has a history of xenophobia and racial violence.
So how tolerant are the Indonesians? I live in Belgium (Indonesia hardly ever comes up in the news over here) so I don't know an awful lot about the country, but I have read about it, and I am interested in other cultures.

We're proud of our diversity because we had to unite to fight the colonists.

Nowadays groups such as FPI (who managed to cancel a Lady Gaga concert and is considered by many the Indonesian equivalent to the Westboro Baptist Church) want Indonesia to be a state running on Sharia law - I don't think I would mind if we were an entirely Muslim population, but we have a sizeable population of non-Muslims - Christians (both Protestant and Catholic), Buddhists, a Hindu-majority island (Bali), and other small religious groups. The government only recognizes 5 religions (6 if we differ between Protestants and Catholics) (also apparently it's possible to have your religion listed as 'Other'), and unfortunately there are Muslims who aren't tolerant towards Christians - there are even Muslims who don't tolerate Muslims of different sects (the Shiite minority in some areas face persecution yet the authorities fail to do anything about it). I haven't even mentioned xenophobia yet.

Indonesia is a united nation of many cultures and diverse groups. But do they tolerate each other's existence? Not entirely.

^ Sums it up pretty much.

[Arkinesia]

Pakai Bahasa Indonesia di NS rasanya agak aneh.

I'm quite fixed in my opinion that Prabowo is a left-leaning fascist with a dubious past.

A…left-leaning fascist? Wot?

Indonesia is confusing to me. On one hand they have a history of tolerance with hundreds of cultures and religions living side-by-side. But on the other hand it has a history of xenophobia and racial violence.
So how tolerant are the Indonesians? I live in Belgium (Indonesia hardly ever comes up in the news over here) so I don't know an awful lot about the country, but I have read about it, and I am interested in other cultures.

It is complicated.

If you live in an urban area, most people are pretty tolerant. Now, that didn't prevent me from living next door to one of the Bali bombers, but, even in a sort of “rube” city like Bandar Lampung most people are pretty tolerant.

That said, there is an underlying religious (and occasionally ethno-religious) conflict ongoing in Indonesia, one that isn't necessarily violent but is leading to a lot of segregation. It's gotten to the point where, when I was back in Indonesia (Jambi, since that's where my parents are now) this past December, I would go to KFC every couple of days since I was out in the city so much and read the Jakarta Post, and there would be another article clamoring for better protection for religious minorities and appeals to calm among the Islamic religious majority to please stop attacking non-Muslims.

I'll stop here and note that generally when it comes to Indonesian news, I read the Jakarta Post, Kompas, or Tempo. All of these are great sources though they work best for different purposes—the Post has an English version, Kompas is good for simple Indonesian, and Tempo is probably the best news source in the country, but you need a pretty firm grasp on the language to follow it. Of course, Bloomberg Asia and the like frequently have stories on Indonesia, so if something like that is already part of your digest, just expand to one of the regional variants. Al Jazeera also has pretty consistent coverage from Indonesia.

At any rate…

Obviously, there is a lot of tension right now, you see cities denying churches building permits for increasingly stupid reasons (in December, there was a city who barred a church permit because it would be “disrespectful to Muslims” on account of the permit being for a street “named for a great Muslim figure”), there are occasional bursts of violence, etc. Indonesia would benefit greatly from a strong secular party but that doesn't really seem to exist. PDI-Perjuangan is sort of secular (they have many Christian candidates as well as Muslim candidates) but they are not really a political force aside from Widodo.

Eventually, though, I think there will be a secular wave that pushes Indonesia to the forefront of global affairs, that is really all that is needed at this point. Hopefully that will come sooner rather than later.

[Senyosu]

Apa kabar, apa kabar~

Maaf dulu, saya asli dari Malaysia~ /kena sepak

Jokowi seems the best choice btw

[Senyosu]

What about Jokowi?

Jokowi is mostly known for visiting villages to hear directly from the people their complaints and what they want.

Both sides are religious and conservative imo. But (as someone who hasn't put too much effort in following the elections) I feel that Jokowi wants to build Indonesia directly from the wishes of the people, while Prabowo wants to build Indonesia as a bold independent country who don't need no ally.

Prabowo from what I have heard was one of the masterminds of the 1997 incident. Is this true?

[Kapilana]

Prabowo from what I have heard was one of the masterminds of the 1997 incident. Is this true?

This seems to be true. However the conditions are very different now and it's unlikely the pogroms would recur.

The most serious danger with Prabowo is that business doesn't like him. Indonesia will lose out on FDI.

The most serious danger with Jokowi is that Aceh first, then other regions, will separate fully from Indonesia because he only cares about ASEAN.

In both cases, democracy isn't the solution to Indonesia's problems. It even holds the country back. The real issues that need dealing with are justice, infrastructure and education.

[Senyosu]

Prabowo from what I have heard was one of the masterminds of the 1997 incident. Is this true?

This seems to be true. However the conditions are very different now and it's unlikely the pogroms would recur.

The most serious danger with Prabowo is that business doesn't like him. Indonesia will lose out on FDI.

The most serious danger with Jokowi is that Aceh first, then other regions, will separate fully from Indonesia because he only cares about ASEAN.

In both cases, democracy isn't the solution to Indonesia's problems. It even holds the country back. The real issues that need dealing with are justice, infrastructure and education.

Jokowi appears to be the type that does focus on infrastructure and education. Prabowo, however, seems far too nationalistic for Indonesia to stand as an emerging economic powerhouse. In this case, such nationalism is more dangerous than the perceived 'internationalism' that Jokowi may favour. And such nationalistic tendencies may put foreign trade at a severe risk as well.

[Senyosu]

Pakai Bahasa Indonesia di NS rasanya agak aneh.

I'm quite fixed in my opinion that Prabowo is a left-leaning fascist with a dubious past.

A…left-leaning fascist? Wot?

He is very nationalistic and very militaristic (qualifier for 'fascist) while managing to piss off private businesses (left leaning?) as well...

I dunno?

[Oceasia]

This make me think about a secular Indonesia. Wonder what it would look like.

[Kalosia]

Obviously, there is a lot of tension right now, you see cities denying churches building permits for increasingly stupid reasons (in December, there was a city who barred a church permit because it would be “disrespectful to Muslims” on account of the permit being for a street “named for a great Muslim figure”), there are occasional bursts of violence, etc. Indonesia would benefit greatly from a strong secular party but that doesn't really seem to exist. PDI-Perjuangan is sort of secular (they have many Christian candidates as well as Muslim candidates) but they are not really a political force aside from Widodo.

Now that you mention it, wasn't there that one time a local group managed to temporarily close a KFC because they were "anti-American"?
Anyway, addressing the quote above, if I'm not mistaken there is (at least) a Christian party if I'm not mistaken?

A…left-leaning fascist? Wot?

He is very nationalistic and very militaristic (qualifier for 'fascist) while managing to piss off private businesses (left leaning?) as well...

I dunno?

So this artist (Ahmad Dhani, who coincidentally has Jewish ancestry) recorded a cover video of a popular song with the lyrics changed to support Prabowo. The suit he wore in the video resembled a Nazi uniform (it was even pointed out by a German newspaper).
Additionally:

As the candidate who it was made for, Prabowo Subianto, once said, "Do I have the guts, am I ready to be called a fascist dictator?"

[Source]

This make me think about a secular Indonesia. Wonder what it would look like.

Like the USA, probably, but with more angry letters and protests from conservative religious groups. Technically speaking we're actually supposed to be secular.

[Oceasia]

Well, screw the conservative religious groups, man.

[Arkinesia]

Now that you mention it, wasn't there that one time a local group managed to temporarily close a KFC because they were "anti-American"?
Anyway, addressing the quote above, if I'm not mistaken there is (at least) a Christian party if I'm not mistaken?

Dunno about KFC. There is a Christian party though. Partai Kristen Demokrat.

He is very nationalistic and very militaristic (qualifier for 'fascist) while managing to piss off private businesses (left leaning?) as well...

I dunno?

So, a garden-variety radical leftist.

[Senyosu]

Now that you mention it, wasn't there that one time a local group managed to temporarily close a KFC because they were "anti-American"?
Anyway, addressing the quote above, if I'm not mistaken there is (at least) a Christian party if I'm not mistaken?

Dunno about KFC. There is a Christian party though. Partai Kristen Demokrat.

He is very nationalistic and very militaristic (qualifier for 'fascist) while managing to piss off private businesses (left leaning?) as well...

I dunno?

So, a garden-variety radical leftist.

Probably only gets votes from the western provinces, yes?

Eh, maybe. An authoritarian leftist, at that.

[Arkinesia]

Dunno about KFC. There is a Christian party though. Partai Kristen Demokrat.


So, a garden-variety radical leftist.

Probably only gets votes from the western provinces, yes?

Eh, maybe. An authoritarian leftist, at that.

One of Lampung's districts nearly sent a local businessman to DPR in 2004 from Partai Damai Sejahtera, the old Christian Democrat Party. But usually any Christian Democrats come from traditionally Batak areas.

[Kapilana]

Jokowi appears to be the type that does focus on infrastructure and education. Prabowo, however, seems far too nationalistic for Indonesia to stand as an emerging economic powerhouse. In this case, such nationalism is more dangerous than the perceived 'internationalism' that Jokowi may favour. And such nationalistic tendencies may put foreign trade at a severe risk as well.

I agree with you Jokowi is the lesser evil and the only sensible choice. However a lot of Indonesia's economic success under Yudhoyono has been a result of its unwillingness to always conform with WTO rules. It shares that trait in common with China. Indonesia has also shown a certain autonomy in its dealings over the mining controversy - going back on the terms of contracts with private businesses. I doubt Jokowi, an anti-corruption figurehead, will be as willing to bend the rules of the game as much as the present government. There are many signs he values the growth in importance of ASEAN and wants to play a part in it. Right now ASEAN isn't an important player - it's almost nothing. In addition Aceh looks certain to secede, and he won't come down on that with the brutal military force that Prabowo would. Probably that's a good thing. However, other regions beginning with Papua will see Aceh and press for much more autonomy, on the same basis that they don't share much in common with Java. The government of the archipelago will look begin to look unique and strange under Jokowi. He will make sense of it by regionalism (ASEAN) only.

Whoever wins, I don't know how effective the government will be when it's so divided. The Muslim parties will have disproportionate influence because the leading party will have such a small number of votes it will need them to pass any legislation at all. That's not a good sign.

[Murkwood]

I find it hilarious that someone who is related to a dictator and is anti-democracy is running in the election.

[Kuzestan]

I find it hilarious that someone who is related to a dictator and is anti-democracy is running in the election.

It has only been 16 years since the New Order was toppled in the 1998 Reformation. So yeah, quite a few old regime supporters are still hanging around in the parliament.

Hell, the party that got the 2nd most seat during the legislative elections even campaigned about the greatness of the New Order, which is just sick.

[Murkwood]

I find it hilarious that someone who is related to a dictator and is anti-democracy is running in the election.

It has only been 16 years since the New Order was toppled in the 1998 Reformation. So yeah, quite a few old regime supporters are still hanging around in the parliament.

Hell, the party that got the 2nd most seat during the legislative elections even campaigned about the greatness of the New Order, which is just sick.

How would anyone want a repeat of that?

I know why, it's rhetorical. Hopefully Indonesia makes the right choice.

[Kalosia]

I find it hilarious that someone who is related to a dictator and is anti-democracy is running in the election.

It has only been 16 years since the New Order was toppled in the 1998 Reformation. So yeah, quite a few old regime supporters are still hanging around in the parliament.

Hell, the party that got the 2nd most seat during the legislative elections even campaigned about the greatness of the New Order, which is just sick.

Which party?

[Kuzestan]

It has only been 16 years since the New Order was toppled in the 1998 Reformation. So yeah, quite a few old regime supporters are still hanging around in the parliament.

Hell, the party that got the 2nd most seat during the legislative elections even campaigned about the greatness of the New Order, which is just sick.

Which party?

Partai Golongan Karya (Party of the Functional Groups)

Not a really appealing name if you ask me.

[Altito Asmoro]

Is Prabowo a liberal and secular figure? I kinda grew a sympathy towards him after seeing that he took Ataturk as a role model.

He's not a secular and liberal figure. Mind you, he also took de Gaulle and Napoleon as his role models as well. Both have military background and then became the leader of France in their own times.

[Murkwood]

It has only been 16 years since the New Order was toppled in the 1998 Reformation. So yeah, quite a few old regime supporters are still hanging around in the parliament.

Hell, the party that got the 2nd most seat during the legislative elections even campaigned about the greatness of the New Order, which is just sick.

Which party?

Partai Golongan Karya, usually called Golkar.

[Kuzestan]

Which party?

Partai Golongan Karya, usually called Golkar.

New Order's ruling party that won every elections from 1966-1998.

They still occupy a good chunk of seats in the parliament after the reformation. Not to mention, often being part of the largest coalition in the government. One tough party they are

[Murkwood]

Partai Golongan Karya, usually called Golkar.

New Order's ruling party that won every elections from 1966-1998.

They still occupy a good chunk of seats in the parliament after the reformation. Not to mention, often being part of the largest coalition in the government. One tough party they are

Because they did such a good job from 1966-1998.

[Altito Asmoro]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/indonesia/berita_i ... arto.shtml

In New Order, at least the people of Indonesia have food on table and stable jobs.

[Oceasia]

Which is good. Today is the day, folks!