Christian Discussion Thread IV

[The Orson Empire]

or you could just pray to god directly for forgiveness.

It is not un-viable, but it is too easy. Are you truly sorry for your sins if you aren't even willing to confess to a priest, to do something that may go a bit out of your comfort zone?

Admitting it to a priest doesn't necessarily mean you will stop doing it.

[The Archregimancy]

Ugh

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28686998

By coincidence, I'm currently reading an excellent history of the Church of the East, so I'm finding this news even more depressing than usual.


And yes, I'm concerned for the Yazidis, too - but they're not really the topic of this thread.

[Czechanada]

Ugh

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28686998

By coincidence, I'm currently reading an excellent history of the Church of the East, so I'm finding this news even more depressing than usual.


And yes, I'm concerned for the Yazidis, too - but they're not really the topic of this thread.

In all fairness, the Yazidis do have some syncretic elements of Christianity within.

[Draica]

To all who consider themselves a Christian, catholic or whatever:

Do you consider this to be a Christian/gospel song?

[The Archregimancy]

In all fairness, the Yazidis do have some syncretic elements of Christianity within.

Yazidis have syncretic elements from just about everyone who ever outlined a religious belief system somewhere in the Middle East.

[Czechanada]

In all fairness, the Yazidis do have some syncretic elements of Christianity within.

Yazidis have syncretic elements from just about everyone who ever outlined a religious belief system somewhere in the Middle East.

The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't seem very Christian like to ignore the plight of another grouo on the basis of religious differejces, especially since Christianity emphasizes love and charity and all that, not to mention liberation theology.

As an organized religion, Christianity had the strength of being a potent member of civil society to affect change for the better.

Thus, the plight of the oppressed in the Middle East should be the discussion and duty of the Christians in this thread.

[Albicia]

Ugh

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28686998

By coincidence, I'm currently reading an excellent history of the Church of the East, so I'm finding this news even more depressing than usual.


And yes, I'm concerned for the Yazidis, too - but they're not really the topic of this thread.

It's so awful... the Church of the East will survive though, in the south of Iraq and overseas. We have one of their churches in my city, actually. But the Yazidi's.... I have an absolute fascination with them. They are not going to survive this war; another hundred years and they'll be gone.

[Conscentia]

Ugh
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28686998
By coincidence, I'm currently reading an excellent history of the Church of the East, so I'm finding this news even more depressing than usual.
And yes, I'm concerned for the Yazidis, too - but they're not really the topic of this thread.

It's so awful... the Church of the East will survive though, in the south of Iraq and overseas. We have one of their churches in my city, actually. But the Yazidi's.... I have an absolute fascination with them. They are not going to survive this war; another hundred years and they'll be gone.

You believe the war will last 100 years?

[Benuty]

It's so awful... the Church of the East will survive though, in the south of Iraq and overseas. We have one of their churches in my city, actually. But the Yazidi's.... I have an absolute fascination with them. They are not going to survive this war; another hundred years and they'll be gone.

You believe the war will last 100 years?

Clearly not.

[Robanov]

You believe the war will last 100 years?

Clearly not.

Who knows. Maybe it won’t even take 100 years if the ISIS take over.

[The Sanguinian Islands]

Ugh

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28686998

By coincidence, I'm currently reading an excellent history of the Church of the East, so I'm finding this news even more depressing than usual.


And yes, I'm concerned for the Yazidis, too - but they're not really the topic of this thread.

It's so awful... the Church of the East will survive though, in the south of Iraq and overseas. We have one of their churches in my city, actually. But the Yazidi's.... I have an absolute fascination with them. They are not going to survive this war; another hundred years and they'll be gone.

i pray for my brothers in iraq every day now

[Othelos]

I've been thinking: the reason why Christianity (not just Christianity itself, but also religiosity) is declining among younger people in America, I think, is because it's losing its relevance to our lives. Why would I spend time worrying about sins that no one else thinks about? All over tv and our culture, people do things that are strictly forbidden by the bible. Like pre-marital sex, for example. It's actually expected, at this point, and it seems really weird if you don't do anything with the other person.

Basically, as people disregard more and more traditional ideas of morality, and come to realize that nothing bad is happening to them, then the basic line of thinking is: what's the problem?

Also, as cultural expectations drift away from christian ideals, Christianity will seem more and more remote. This is exemplified by acceptance of LGBT people by the younger generations. We're scratching our heads as to why it's so wrong for two people to be in a loving, monogamous relationship, regardless of gender, but most churches are screaming "No!". It seems pointless, and annoying. So why continue believing in something we disagree with? That's not to say that the belief in god is declining, just the religion itself.

So anyway, my question to you guys is this: how can Christianity stay relevant, or is it doomed to a steady decline?

[The Flood]

I've been thinking: the reason why Christianity (not just Christianity itself, but also religiosity) is declining among younger people in America, I think, is because it's losing its relevance to our lives. Why would I spend time worrying about sins that no one else thinks about? All over tv and our culture, people do things that are strictly forbidden by the bible. Like pre-marital sex, for example. It's actually expected, at this point, and it seems really weird if you don't do anything with the other person.

Basically, as people disregard more and more traditional ideas of morality, and come to realize that nothing bad is happening to them, then the basic line of thinking is: what's the problem?

Which is terrible. People shouldn't be expected to have premarital sex, they should be sternly expected not to. And the media should be restricted not to allow immoral messages that affect the minds of the populace.

[Constantinopolis]

I don't understand why so many Christians worry about 'heretics'. In the churches I grew up going to, everyone respected the other denominations. No one ever even said 'heretics'.

It's a descriptive, technical term. A heretic is a person who is Christian, but believes and promotes false doctrines/dogmas (heresies). According to some definitions, only those who actively promote heresy are heretics (as opposed to those who merely believe them). It's not meant as an insult. To call someone a heretic is just saying that you think they are wrong about some fundamental aspect of the Christian faith, but you still recognize them as Christian. There is no other word that means the same thing, so we have to use the term "heretics", unless we want to say "people who are Christian but are wrong about some fundamental aspect of the Christian faith" every time.

Being a heretic is not the same thing as being a member of another denomination. The thing separating two denominations can be either schism (separation without fundamental disagreement) or heresy (fundamental disagreement). The question of whether a given denomination is merely schismatic or also heretical is very important, especially if we're going to talk about reunification. For example, the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Communion are in schism, but they have both declared each other to be non-heretical. In the early 20th century, the Orthodox Church and the Anglican Communion also declared that they are only in schism and neither is heretical, but that declaration is probably obsolete, as much has changed since then.

Not using the words "heretic" or "heresy" can be done out of respect, but it is also often done out of relativism (the belief that nothing is really wrong - there are just different points of view - so because no one is really wrong, there are no heretics). Personally, I make a point of using the words "heretic" and "heresy" in order to express my opposition to relativism.

Plus, it's not really possible to discuss matters of Church doctrine without referring to heresy. In the Orthodox Church at least, every major doctrinal decision was made in response to some heresy (in other words, some people started saying X, others said Y, the two were mutually exclusive, so a decision had to be made as to which was true and which was heresy).

[The Flood]

I'm fond of the word 'heresy'!

[Constantinopolis]

If you find a church that will accept someone that likes anime, rock music, fantasy literature, and hangs out with people at the comics store, let me know. That was all " of satan"

What? That sounds crazy (calling those things wrong, I mean). I've heard stories of churches like that in the Southern U.S., but I always thought they were exaggerations. The deacon at the (Orthodox) church I used to go to a couple of years ago was a huge fan of fantasy literature.

You could probably go to any church outside of your area (or, I guess, outside of the Southern U.S.? I'm not sure what it's like over there) and find that they are perfectly fine with anime, rock music, fantasy literature, and comics stores.

Basically, as people disregard more and more traditional ideas of morality, and come to realize that nothing bad is happening to them, then the basic line of thinking is: what's the problem?

Bad things are happening to them, they just don't draw the connection between those bad things and their approach to sex and relationships. The flip side of easy sex and temporary relationships is that you go through large numbers of break-ups, often very hurtful, and many people spend long years searching for a life partner and never finding one (I've lost track of how many tragic stories I've heard from friends who thought that X or Y was going to be their life partner but then it didn't work out). This is accepted as a normal fact of life in present-day culture, but it's not. Young people aren't supposed to go through this much heartbreak. People used to end long-term relationships maybe once or twice in a lifetime, not on a regular basis.

We've trained ourselves to pretend we're fine with it - especially the men, taught to hide their emotions - but we're not. We're not fine with the levels of emotional pain most of us experience these days.

So anyway, my question to you guys is this: how can Christianity stay relevant, or is it doomed to a steady decline?

It is not Christianity's job to "stay relevant" to the surrounding culture. It is Christianity's job to attempt to Christianize the surrounding culture. If that is not currently working, no big deal, we'll just keep trying until it does work.

The current decline of Christianity in the West may seem distressing to those who only look at recent history (i.e. the past few centuries), but in the grand scope of the 2000 years that Christianity has existed, there have been many setbacks, many periods when Christianity declined or even disappeared completely in various places. We recovered from those after a few hundred years, and we will recover from this one.

[Othelos]

I've been thinking: the reason why Christianity (not just Christianity itself, but also religiosity) is declining among younger people in America, I think, is because it's losing its relevance to our lives. Why would I spend time worrying about sins that no one else thinks about? All over tv and our culture, people do things that are strictly forbidden by the bible. Like pre-marital sex, for example. It's actually expected, at this point, and it seems really weird if you don't do anything with the other person.

Basically, as people disregard more and more traditional ideas of morality, and come to realize that nothing bad is happening to them, then the basic line of thinking is: what's the problem?

Which is terrible. People shouldn't be expected to have premarital sex, they should be sternly expected not to.

How do you propose to change our culture back to that?

And the media should be restricted not to allow immoral messages that affect the minds of the populace.

Your morality isn't the only morality. So no.

[Othelos]

If you find a church that will accept someone that likes anime, rock music, fantasy literature, and hangs out with people at the comics store, let me know. That was all " of satan"

What? That sounds crazy (calling those things wrong, I mean). I've heard stories of churches like that in the Southern U.S., but I always thought they were exaggerations. The deacon at the (Orthodox) church I used to go to a couple of years ago was a huge fan of fantasy literature.

You could probably go to any church outside of your area (or, I guess, outside of the Southern U.S.? I'm not sure what it's like over there) and find that they are perfectly fine with anime, rock music, fantasy literature, and comics stores.

Basically, as people disregard more and more traditional ideas of morality, and come to realize that nothing bad is happening to them, then the basic line of thinking is: what's the problem?

Bad things are happening to them, they just don't draw the connection between those bad things and their approach to sex and relationships. The flip side of easy sex and temporary relationships is that you go through large numbers of break-ups, often very hurtful, and many people spend long years searching for a life partner and never finding one (I've lost track of how many tragic stories I've heard from friends who thought that X or Y was going to be their life partner but then it didn't work out). This is accepted as a normal fact of life in present-day culture, but it's not. Young people aren't supposed to go through this much heartbreak. People used to end long-term relationships maybe once or twice in a lifetime, not on a regular basis.

We've trained ourselves to pretend we're fine with it - especially the men, taught to hide their emotions - but we're not. We're not fine with the levels of emotional pain most of us experience these days.

That's why most younger people either stick to longer term relationships, or have casual sex.

So anyway, my question to you guys is this: how can Christianity stay relevant, or is it doomed to a steady decline?

It is not Christianity's job to "stay relevant" to the surrounding culture. It is Christianity's job to attempt to Christianize the surrounding culture. If that is not currently working, no big deal, we'll just keep trying until it does work.

The current decline of Christianity in the West may seem distressing to those who only look at recent history (i.e. the past few centuries), but in the grand scope of the 2000 years that Christianity has existed, there have been many setbacks, many periods when Christianity declined or even disappeared completely in various places. We recovered from those after a few hundred years, and we will recover from this one.

Yes, but I don't think the west has ever had this level of sexual freedom before, and many restrictions in Christianity are in regards to sexual behavior.

[Rio Cana]

Ugh

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28686998

By coincidence, I'm currently reading an excellent history of the Church of the East, so I'm finding this news even more depressing than usual.

And yes, I'm concerned for the Yazidis, too - but they're not really the topic of this thread.

It's so awful... the Church of the East will survive though, in the south of Iraq and overseas. We have one of their churches in my city, actually. But the Yazidi's.... I have an absolute fascination with them. They are not going to survive this war; another hundred years and they'll be gone.

The closest Christian nation to Northern Iraq is Armenia. See map below.

These other groups might survive in an independent Kurdistan nation. After all, they do not seem to be bothering anyone. They could create a Christian nation for Arab all Arab people in Northern Iraq but I do not think it will happen.

Large map - http://www.yourchildlearns.com/online-a ... turkey.gif

[Constantinopolis]

It is not Christianity's job to "stay relevant" to the surrounding culture. It is Christianity's job to attempt to Christianize the surrounding culture. If that is not currently working, no big deal, we'll just keep trying until it does work.

The current decline of Christianity in the West may seem distressing to those who only look at recent history (i.e. the past few centuries), but in the grand scope of the 2000 years that Christianity has existed, there have been many setbacks, many periods when Christianity declined or even disappeared completely in various places. We recovered from those after a few hundred years, and we will recover from this one.

Yes, but I don't think the west has ever had this level of sexual freedom before, and many restrictions in Christianity are in regards to sexual behavior.

No culture in human history has ever had the kind of sexual freedom that present-day Western culture has, but I'm not sure about "levels".

Culturally-approved sexual freedom for young people (as long as no one gets pregnant, at least) is common in many cultures throughout human history. The thing that makes present-day Western culture special isn't really the pre-marital sex, it's the fact that there is no culturally-enforced expectation to settle down and get married for life around the age of 18-23 or so. That is the first great sexual innovation of the West: not sexual freedom for teenagers, but sexual freedom for older people.

Also, the normalization of divorce is another big innovation. Most cultures past and present have divorce as an option, but an extreme option, to be used only in case of adultery, or if the husband abandons the wife, or if there is domestic violence, etc. No-fault divorce - and the fact that it has become so widespread - is the second great sexual innovation of present-day Western culture.

The third great sexual innovation of present-day Western culture is the normalization of porn. Porn has always existed in some form, but it has never been so widespread, and it has never been tolerated as a normal part of culture.

And the fourth is the normalization of long-term homosexual relationships that are intended to copy heterosexual marriage. Homosexuality as such was tolerated in many cultures, and even actively encouraged in some, but it was never before expected to manifest itself in the same way as heterosexuality. Gay lovers are common in many cultures. Gay husbands, no.

In fact, I'm noticing a pattern here. In many cultures, sexual freedom, easy separation from a partner, consuming pornography, and having homosexual relationships, are things expected for young men, but not for women or men beyond the age of 25 or so. Thus, I suppose it could be said that what makes present-day Western culture different is that people of all ages and both sexes are expected to have the sexual habits of teenage men. A culture of boys. That explains a lot...

But to bring this back to Christianity: The sexual restrictions in Christianity are (or should be) a minor or secondary part of the religion. Christians have certainly never considered them a particularly important part of their faith, until recent times. The only reason they have suddenly become so prominent over the last few decades is because Western culture has drifted so far from Christian sexual standards (note: culture was never completely in line with them in the first place, but recently it has gone especially far in the other direction), and Christians have reacted to this by elevating these secondary concerns to the status of central tenets of the faith. Meanwhile, the real central tenets of the faith are getting increasingly neglected.

[The Sanguinian Islands]

I've been thinking: the reason why Christianity (not just Christianity itself, but also religiosity) is declining among younger people in America, I think, is because it's losing its relevance to our lives. Why would I spend time worrying about sins that no one else thinks about? All over tv and our culture, people do things that are strictly forbidden by the bible. Like pre-marital sex, for example. It's actually expected, at this point, and it seems really weird if you don't do anything with the other person.

Basically, as people disregard more and more traditional ideas of morality, and come to realize that nothing bad is happening to them, then the basic line of thinking is: what's the problem?

Also, as cultural expectations drift away from christian ideals, Christianity will seem more and more remote. This is exemplified by acceptance of LGBT people by the younger generations. We're scratching our heads as to why it's so wrong for two people to be in a loving, monogamous relationship, regardless of gender, but most churches are screaming "No!". It seems pointless, and annoying. So why continue believing in something we disagree with? That's not to say that the belief in god is declining, just the religion itself.

So anyway, my question to you guys is this: how can Christianity stay relevant, or is it doomed to a steady decline?

The edge transcends science itself

[Othelos]

Yes, but I don't think the west has ever had this level of sexual freedom before, and many restrictions in Christianity are in regards to sexual behavior.

No culture in human history has ever had the kind of sexual freedom that present-day Western culture has, but I'm not sure about "levels".

Culturally-approved sexual freedom for young people (as long as no one gets pregnant, at least) is common in many cultures throughout human history. The thing that makes present-day Western culture special isn't really the pre-marital sex, it's the fact that there is no culturally-enforced expectation to settle down and get married for life around the age of 18-23 or so. That is the first great sexual innovation of the West: not sexual freedom for teenagers, but sexual freedom for older people.

Also, the normalization of divorce is another big innovation. Most cultures past and present have divorce as an option, but an extreme option, to be used only in case of adultery, or if the husband abandons the wife, or if there is domestic violence, etc. No-fault divorce - and the fact that it has become so widespread - is the second great sexual innovation of present-day Western culture.

The third great sexual innovation of present-day Western culture is the normalization of porn. Porn has always existed in some form, but it has never been so widespread, and it has never been tolerated as a normal part of culture.

And the fourth is the normalization of long-term homosexual relationships that are intended to copy heterosexual marriage. Homosexuality as such was tolerated in many cultures, and even actively encouraged in some, but it was never before expected to manifest itself in the same way as heterosexuality. Gay lovers are common in many cultures. Gay husbands, no.

In fact, I'm noticing a pattern here. In many cultures, sexual freedom, easy separation from a partner, consuming pornography, and having homosexual relationships, are things expected for young men, but not for women or men beyond the age of 25 or so. Thus, I suppose it could be said that what makes present-day Western culture different is that people of all ages and both sexes are expected to have the sexual habits of teenage men. A culture of boys. That explains a lot...

But to bring this back to Christianity: The sexual restrictions in Christianity are (or should be) a minor or secondary part of the religion. Christians have certainly never considered them a particularly important part of their faith, until recent times. The only reason they have suddenly become so prominent over the last few decades is because Western culture has drifted so far from Christian sexual standards (note: culture was never completely in line with them in the first place, but recently it has gone especially far in the other direction), and Christians have reacted to this by elevating these secondary concerns to the status of central tenets of the faith. Meanwhile, the real central tenets of the faith are getting increasingly neglected.

what would you say the real central tenets are?

The edge transcends science itself

what?

[The Sanguinian Islands]

No culture in human history has ever had the kind of sexual freedom that present-day Western culture has, but I'm not sure about "levels".

Culturally-approved sexual freedom for young people (as long as no one gets pregnant, at least) is common in many cultures throughout human history. The thing that makes present-day Western culture special isn't really the pre-marital sex, it's the fact that there is no culturally-enforced expectation to settle down and get married for life around the age of 18-23 or so. That is the first great sexual innovation of the West: not sexual freedom for teenagers, but sexual freedom for older people.

Also, the normalization of divorce is another big innovation. Most cultures past and present have divorce as an option, but an extreme option, to be used only in case of adultery, or if the husband abandons the wife, or if there is domestic violence, etc. No-fault divorce - and the fact that it has become so widespread - is the second great sexual innovation of present-day Western culture.

The third great sexual innovation of present-day Western culture is the normalization of porn. Porn has always existed in some form, but it has never been so widespread, and it has never been tolerated as a normal part of culture.

And the fourth is the normalization of long-term homosexual relationships that are intended to copy heterosexual marriage. Homosexuality as such was tolerated in many cultures, and even actively encouraged in some, but it was never before expected to manifest itself in the same way as heterosexuality. Gay lovers are common in many cultures. Gay husbands, no.

In fact, I'm noticing a pattern here. In many cultures, sexual freedom, easy separation from a partner, consuming pornography, and having homosexual relationships, are things expected for young men, but not for women or men beyond the age of 25 or so. Thus, I suppose it could be said that what makes present-day Western culture different is that people of all ages and both sexes are expected to have the sexual habits of teenage men. A culture of boys. That explains a lot...

But to bring this back to Christianity: The sexual restrictions in Christianity are (or should be) a minor or secondary part of the religion. Christians have certainly never considered them a particularly important part of their faith, until recent times. The only reason they have suddenly become so prominent over the last few decades is because Western culture has drifted so far from Christian sexual standards (note: culture was never completely in line with them in the first place, but recently it has gone especially far in the other direction), and Christians have reacted to this by elevating these secondary concerns to the status of central tenets of the faith. Meanwhile, the real central tenets of the faith are getting increasingly neglected.

what would you say the real central tenets are?

The edge transcends science itself

what?

So basically are you saying morals don't matter anymore and should be replaced by sexual degeneracy?

Sounds edgy.

[Othelos]

what would you say the real central tenets are?


what?

So basically are you saying morals don't matter anymore and should be replaced by sexual degeneracy?

Sounds edgy.

not what I was saying at all

[The Sanguinian Islands]

So basically are you saying morals don't matter anymore and should be replaced by sexual degeneracy?

Sounds edgy.

not what I was saying at all

Then why would you come to a christian discussion, not being a christian yourself (I assume), and tell us that our morals don't matter?