Christian Discussion Thread IV

[Valica]

Okay!

So what do you guys think of Pope Francis?

I think he's awesome.

As an agnostic humanist... yeah, he's cool.
He could do more to let gay people know that he doesn't hate them or ask them to change.
Whether or not he is against gay marriage has nothing to do with his ability to make them feel welcome in Catholicism, which is quickly becoming irrelevant in the modern world.

[Czechanada]

Okay!

So what do you guys think of Pope Francis?

I think he's awesome.

He's more bark than bite.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Okay!

So what do you guys think of Pope Francis?

I think he's awesome.

First of all, by far better than Benedict. He seems generally focused on tolerance rather than demonization, and his focus on poverty, oppression, and economics is really important and is what a lot of Catholics across the world need. He also seems to be making a real effort to expunge corruption in the Vatican.

On the other hand, I really wish he would make some desperately needed changes. The use of condoms should be acceptable to fight the AIDS epidemic in Africa, and in general the church should back off on contraception. And while I don't expect catholics to reverse course on abortion any time soon, the ridiculous idea that it's unacceptable to commit a 'direct abortion' to save a woman's life and instead you must rely on inducing labor or removing the organ the fetus resides in and just letting it die, needs to be done away with.

Also I feel like he didn't do much to try to resolve the child sex scandal.

[Luminesa]

Okay!

So what do you guys think of Pope Francis?

I think he's awesome.

As an agnostic humanist... yeah, he's cool.
He could do more to let gay people know that he doesn't hate them or ask them to change.
Whether or not he is against gay marriage has nothing to do with his ability to make them feel welcome in Catholicism, which is quickly becoming irrelevant in the modern world.

The Church doesn't hate gays. Not to turn this into an LGBT discussion.

And Catholicism is FAR from irrelevant.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

Okay!

So what do you guys think of Pope Francis?

I think he's awesome.

Anyone who doesn't think he's awesome kinda sucks.

[Nordengrund]

Okay!

So what do you guys think of Pope Francis?

I think he's awesome.

Anyone who doesn't think he's awesome kinda sucks.

I have no opinion of him since I had not heard about him doing anything. Then again, I am not Catholic, so I do not care what he does.

[Aelex]

Anyone who doesn't think he's awesome kinda sucks.

Well, I kinda would have thought that you would prefered the last pope... I guess I can be too cynical some times...

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

The Church doesn't hate gays. Not to turn this into an LGBT discussion.

Perhaps not, but Benedict did hammer the message that gay marriage was terrible, comparing it to eugenics, and that homosexuals were "intrinsically disordered." Whatever that is, it sounds like hate to a lot of people.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

The Church doesn't hate gays. Not to turn this into an LGBT discussion.

Perhaps not, but Benedict did hammer the message that gay marriage was terrible, comparing it to eugenics, and that homosexuals were "intrinsically disordered." Whatever that is, it sounds like hate to a lot of people.

you can take the pope out of the Nazis but you can't take the Nazi out of the Pope

[Tsaraine]

A thought: using the descriptor "God-fearing" to mean "devout, pious, morally upright" is really weird in Christianity. I can get being scared of Mictlantecuhtli or Set, because those dudes will fuck you up, but given that the (new testament) Christian god's principal attitude is love, it seems strange, and vaguely blasphemous, to fear him. It seems equivalent to saying "I fucked up bad, and now even the God of love is mad at me"; not exactly a statement of moral fortitude!

The (new testament) Jehovah seems like an all right dude, you shouldn't be scared of him. Can someone explain this terminology for me?

[Olivaero]

A thought: using the descriptor "God-fearing" to mean "devout, pious, morally upright" is really weird in Christianity. I can get being scared of Mictlantecuhtli or Set, because those dudes will fuck you up, but given that the (new testament) Christian god's principal attitude is love, it seems strange, and vaguely blasphemous, to fear him. It seems equivalent to saying "I fucked up bad, and now even the God of love is mad at me"; not exactly a statement of moral fortitude!

The (new testament) Jehovah seems like an all right dude, you shouldn't be scared of him. Can someone explain this terminology for me?

Well, there's still hell or purgatory. A being that can send you there is probably one to be feared assuming the Christian in question believes in Hell of course.

[Aelex]

A thought: using the descriptor "God-fearing" to mean "devout, pious, morally upright" is really weird in Christianity. I can get being scared of Mictlantecuhtli or Set, because those dudes will fuck you up, but given that the (new testament) Christian god's principal attitude is love, it seems strange, and vaguely blasphemous, to fear him. It seems equivalent to saying "I fucked up bad, and now even the God of love is mad at me"; not exactly a statement of moral fortitude!

The (new testament) Jehovah seems like an all right dude, you shouldn't be scared of him. Can someone explain this terminology for me?

English particularity...

Your language is weird...

[Constantinopolis]

A thought: using the descriptor "God-fearing" to mean "devout, pious, morally upright" is really weird in Christianity. I can get being scared of Mictlantecuhtli or Set, because those dudes will fuck you up, but given that the (new testament) Christian god's principal attitude is love, it seems strange, and vaguely blasphemous, to fear him. It seems equivalent to saying "I fucked up bad, and now even the God of love is mad at me"; not exactly a statement of moral fortitude!

The (new testament) Jehovah seems like an all right dude, you shouldn't be scared of him. Can someone explain this terminology for me?

Well, NT or OT, we are still talking about an all-powerful being of incomprehensible cosmic vastness.

No matter how loving and friendly the attitude, an all-powerful being of incomprehensible cosmic vastness is an inherently scary thing.

[Pope Joan]

Francis has stood up to powerful groups that represent money and also an ingrown self-serving attitude of the worst kind. He is tolerant, it seems, but not of clerical misbehavior.

[Sanctissima]

A thought: using the descriptor "God-fearing" to mean "devout, pious, morally upright" is really weird in Christianity. I can get being scared of Mictlantecuhtli or Set, because those dudes will fuck you up, but given that the (new testament) Christian god's principal attitude is love, it seems strange, and vaguely blasphemous, to fear him. It seems equivalent to saying "I fucked up bad, and now even the God of love is mad at me"; not exactly a statement of moral fortitude!

The (new testament) Jehovah seems like an all right dude, you shouldn't be scared of him. Can someone explain this terminology for me?

Basically, it's a really old term.

Really, really, really old.

In fact, it's so old that we don't even know when it was first used, just that it dates from Ancient Hebrew (which is basically going back to pre-history). But, nonetheless, it survived all this time, and has become widely used in Christian doctrine.

The term was employed in a time when the Old Testament God was all there was, and you were supposed to fear him in the truest sense of the word. The term snuck it's way into the New Testament both because of tradition and the fact that most of the people who ended up writing the Books were either converted Jews or people who were heavily influenced by the culture. The term became solidified in Catholic doctrine during the Middle Ages (famine, low-life expectancy and the bubonic plague didn't help) when the general notion was that you were supposed to suffer on Earth so that you could gain eternity in heaven.

So, basically, it's an ancient and outdated term that's been used since time immemorial.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

When I hear the term 'God-fearing' get used, it's almost always by a Protestant. I've never heard it used by a Catholic to my knowledge.

[G-Tech Corporation]

A thought: using the descriptor "God-fearing" to mean "devout, pious, morally upright" is really weird in Christianity. I can get being scared of Mictlantecuhtli or Set, because those dudes will fuck you up, but given that the (new testament) Christian god's principal attitude is love, it seems strange, and vaguely blasphemous, to fear him. It seems equivalent to saying "I fucked up bad, and now even the God of love is mad at me"; not exactly a statement of moral fortitude!

The (new testament) Jehovah seems like an all right dude, you shouldn't be scared of him. Can someone explain this terminology for me?

Basically, it's a really old term.

Really, really, really old.

In fact, it's so old that we don't even know when it was first used, just that it dates from Ancient Hebrew (which is basically going back to pre-history). But, nonetheless, it survived all this time, and has become widely used in Christian doctrine.

The term was employed in a time when the Old Testament God was all there was, and you were supposed to fear him in the truest sense of the word. The term snuck it's way into the New Testament both because of tradition and the fact that most of the people who ended up writing the Books were either converted Jews or people who were heavily influenced by the culture. The term became solidified in Catholic doctrine during the Middle Ages (famine, low-life expectancy and the bubonic plague didn't help) when the general notion was that you were supposed to suffer on Earth so that you could gain eternity in heaven.

So, basically, it's an ancient and outdated term that's been used since time immemorial.

Mind you, God-fearing is also an attribute valued in modern times in the sense of respect for power and holiness. God is certainly loving from a Christian standpoint, but equally He hates sin; as such, it is only right that as Christians we should "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" as stated in Philippians. It is not right that the Christian should view salvation as of little worth or with levity, but with the solemnity and respect that the enormity of the salvation from the wrath of God deserves.

[Luminesa]

Perhaps not, but Benedict did hammer the message that gay marriage was terrible, comparing it to eugenics, and that homosexuals were "intrinsically disordered." Whatever that is, it sounds like hate to a lot of people.

you can take the pope out of the Nazis but you can't take the Nazi out of the Pope

Benedict wasn't a Nazi!

Fun fact: When he was a kid, the Hitler Youth tried to conscript him. He was like, "Nope," and basically went AWOL.

So I dunno how he could be considered a Nazi.

[Constantinopolis]

The phrase "fear of God" is also part of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. When calling upon the congregation to approach and receive communion, the priest says "In the fear of God, with faith and love draw near."

Here is one article that talks about it in more detail.

[Luminesa]

Anyone who doesn't think he's awesome kinda sucks.

Well, I kinda would have thought that you would prefered the last pope... I guess I can be too cynical some times...

I feel Benedict maybe got misunderstood. He wasn't a bad person at all. He was a theologian and a genius, and geniuses are often quite misunderstood.

Honestly, JP2, Benedict, and Francis are all awesome, in their own ways.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

you can take the pope out of the Nazis but you can't take the Nazi out of the Pope

Benedict wasn't a Nazi!

Fun fact: When he was a kid, the Hitler Youth tried to conscript him. He was like, "Nope," and basically went AWOL.

So I dunno how he could be considered a Nazi.

'Twas a joke young one

[Luminesa]

Benedict wasn't a Nazi!

Fun fact: When he was a kid, the Hitler Youth tried to conscript him. He was like, "Nope," and basically went AWOL.

So I dunno how he could be considered a Nazi.

'Twas a joke young one

Sorry. It's hard to tell when people are joking, behind a keyboard.

Not to mention I've heard so many people say bad stuff about Benedict, I never know when they are joking. :/

[Nordengrund]

I was reading my bible today and found a verse that caught my attention. It says that if God was your Father you would love Him. Those who do not love Him, He is not your Father, but the devil is your father. Jesus says they belong to the devil. Could this verse be scriptural evidence for limited atonement? I ask this because from the verse, it sounds like everyone's destinations were predetermined.

Thoughts?

Verse: John 8:42-47

[Narland]

Back to the subject of at hand,


I don't find anything logistically wrong with the idea of the Prosperity Gospel. After all looking at Job, he kept the faith of God and he prospered, and then when he was tested, he still kept the faith and then Prospered seven fold. And the inclusion of Proverbs in the Bible suggests at least a somewhat concept of "keep these words and you will prosper" And while much of the NT focuses on suffering of Christians, they were dealing with influences we never will.

However, the theology of the Prosperity Gospel, betrays the Spirit of Christianity. Christianity isn't about wealth or status, its about serving your fellow man, and God.

Agreed.
I fell into the Faith-Prosperity heresy hook, line, and sinker from 17-19 years of age. I will forever be engraciated to the Lutheran pastor who spent his entire summer evenings (minus Sundays) my 19th year, going verse by verse through the whole of scripture to get my head on straight. My intent was to convert him, but with much prayer, and heaviness in my heart God granted me the grace to repented from its deceptive allure.

Faith is trust in the Almighty. It is not a commodity to accumulate in order to get God to prosper one's self. It is not a force in opposition to fear (also supposedly a force). It is not a magical talisman. It is total abandon to reliance on the grace of God.

While I do not think it is a heresy that necessarily damns the soul from Salvation, it certainly distorts it to the point where the Gospel can be lost. God is a good God. The devil is a bad devil. There are natural laws and forces that one must have wisdom and knowledge to master in order to survive, overcome, and thrive (agriculture for instance). But this is not the purpose of life. One is not more or less spiritual the more materially prosperous one is, nor the better the health one has, nor how shiny and straight one's teeth is. Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel (pun with thread in Aramaic) to go through the eye of a needle than it is a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." Oppulence can be a hinderance, and this is the error of the Health and Wealth teaching.

A Prayer of Agur
Two things I ask of You; don’t deny them to me before I die: Keep falsehoods and deceitful words far from me. Give me neither poverty nor wealth;
feed me with the food I need. Otherwise, I might have too much and deny You, saying, “Who is the Lord?” or I might have nothing and steal, thus profaning the name of my God.
Proverbs 30:7-9

[Pope Joan]

I was reading my bible today and found a verse that caught my attention. It says that if God was your Father you would love Him. Those who do not love Him, He is not your Father, but the devil is your father. Jesus says they belong to the devil. Could this verse be scriptural evidence for limited atonement? I ask this because from the verse, it sounds like everyone's destinations were predetermined.

Thoughts?

Verse: John 8:42-47

People back then believed very much in breeding to type. You can see some of it in the story of how Jacob cheated Laban out of his cattle. If you were the "son" of something, that meant you had that deeply ingrained characteristic. So when those who wanted to not only silence but harm Jesus claimed the status of sons of Abraham, blessed of God, Jesus retaliated with that comment. I don't blame him.

I'm not sure that there is some moral duty to love God just because he has the role of a father. Many fathers have that role and are worthy of no respect at all. It depends on the character of the one living that role.