Christian Discussion Thread IV

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

[Benuty]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

Saying as a Jew (in before money stereotypes), it seems like the Prosperity Gospel has attracted a lot of so called faith healers to the business (not hard to see why though). So its hard to tell the legitimate believers from the quacks, and frauds.

[Yellow Yellow Red]

Which I think was a pity, despite my rather anti-catholic feelings as he was an excellent theologian. He was certainly a better pope in those terms than the current ones, it just so happens that the perception matters despite this being such a flawed basis for leadership of faith.
Of course given the problems that he was facing internally regarding corruption and the like, I don't find unbelievable that he simply found it too great a stress.

I think that's what happened. One can say a lot of things about the Curia, but 'receptive to public opinion' isn't one of them. However, the corruption, complacency, insubordination, and factional backbiting was probably too much for Benedict to deal with.

And lo and behold, it hasn't gone away.

I think his close personal relationship with John Paul II might have played a part, too.

He saw first hand how a Pope who was infirm and withering away caused a lot of damage to the Papacy. I think he may very well have decided to quit before he found himself in that same position, too weak to carry out a lot of the duties of the Papacy and unable to put enough energy into the really tough battles. That John Paul II was not only his Pope but also his close friend would only have added to that, I'd imagine.

[The Union of the West]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

It is a heretical doctrine that promotes greed. To quote Luke 12:15, "Man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

[Vazdaria]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

it's ludicrous. Book of Job, anybody???

[Luminesa]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

*Preparing to go into rant mode. You have been warned.*

I personally despise everything Joel Osteen says. He has a gross misunderstanding of Christianity.

Some examples of saints who defy Joel Osteen's teachings (all of whom were poor/sickly):

1.) A fisherman (St. Peter)
2.) A poor, sickly girl from France (St. Bernadette)
3.) A young invalid orphan who spent her last years bedridden on a wooden pallet (St. Seraphina)
4.) A 6-year-old girl with bone cancer (Bl. Antoinetta Mio)
5.) A Polish orphan and prisoner of war (St. Pope John Paul II)
6.) A poor, uneducated parish priest (St. John Vianney)
7.) A lowly Carmelite novice (St. Therese of Liseux)
8.) A poor girl from Macedonia (Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
9.) A poor carpenter (St. Joseph)
10.) A peasant girl (St. Joan of Arc)

The Mother of God was a poor, unmarried, 15-year-old virgin from Bethlehem.

Sure, a couple of popes are on this list, but as far as earthly wealth, none of them had it. Did they have full, faithful lives? You can bet on it. Were their lives any easier, because of their faith? Not at all. But their faith made their crosses sweeter and easier to bear.

God never promised us a rose garden, like Joel Osteen tries to say. People need to know that they are not all going to become millionaires with multiple jets and fancy suits, if they pray. I know for sure I'm not, and I don't expect to be rich. In fact, I don't want the money. More money, more problems.

What we need to do about it is tell people the truth. The time is over for cotton-candy messages like Mr. Osteen's. The truth hurts, but our hearts were not made for this cheap, plastic, feel-good, pseudo-gospel. We were made for something greater. We were made to make something beautiful out of our lives, even in the midst of pain and darkness.

It's like Michelangelo making the Pieta. Had he not poured his blood (literally, he bled making the Pieta), sweat, and tears into it, it would not have been the beautiful work it was. Luckily, he did, and he turned his pain and depression into something glorious.

[Menassa]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

*Preparing to go into rant mode. You have been warned.*

I personally despise everything Joel Osteen says. He has a gross misunderstanding of Christianity.

Some examples of saints who defy Joel Osteen's teachings (all of whom were poor/sickly):

1.) A fisherman (St. Peter)
2.) A poor, sickly girl from France (St. Bernadette)
3.) A young invalid orphan who spent her last years bedridden on a wooden pallet (St. Seraphina)
4.) A 6-year-old girl with bone cancer (Bl. Antoinetta Mio)
5.) A Polish orphan and prisoner of war (St. Pope John Paul II)
6.) A poor, uneducated parish priest (St. John Vianney)
7.) A lowly Carmelite novice (St. Therese of Liseux)
8.) A poor girl from Macedonia (Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
9.) A poor carpenter (St. Joseph)
10.) A peasant girl (St. Joan of Arc)

The Mother of God was a poor, unmarried, 15-year-old virgin from Bethlehem.

Sure, a couple of popes are on this list, but as far as earthly wealth, none of them had it. Did they have full, faithful lives? You can bet on it. Were their lives any easier, because of their faith? Not at all. But their faith made their crosses sweeter and easier to bear.

God never promised us a rose garden, like Joel Osteen tries to say. People need to know that they are not all going to become millionaires with multiple jets and fancy suits, if they pray. I know for sure I'm not, and I don't expect to be rich. In fact, I don't want the money. More money, more problems.

What we need to do about it is tell people the truth. The time is over for cotton-candy messages like Mr. Osteen's. The truth hurts, but our hearts were not made for this cheap, plastic, feel-good, pseudo-gospel. We were made for something greater. We were made to make something beautiful out of our lives, even in the midst of pain and darkness.

It's like Michelangelo making the Pieta. Had he not poured his blood (literally, he bled making the Pieta), sweat, and tears into it, it would not have been the beautiful work it was. Luckily, he did, and he turned his pain and depression into something glorious.

Yeah but Joel Osteen doesn't believe in Saints, no?

[Luminesa]

*Preparing to go into rant mode. You have been warned.*

I personally despise everything Joel Osteen says. He has a gross misunderstanding of Christianity.

Some examples of saints who defy Joel Osteen's teachings (all of whom were poor/sickly):

1.) A fisherman (St. Peter)
2.) A poor, sickly girl from France (St. Bernadette)
3.) A young invalid orphan who spent her last years bedridden on a wooden pallet (St. Seraphina)
4.) A 6-year-old girl with bone cancer (Bl. Antoinetta Mio)
5.) A Polish orphan and prisoner of war (St. Pope John Paul II)
6.) A poor, uneducated parish priest (St. John Vianney)
7.) A lowly Carmelite novice (St. Therese of Liseux)
8.) A poor girl from Macedonia (Bl. Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
9.) A poor carpenter (St. Joseph)
10.) A peasant girl (St. Joan of Arc)

The Mother of God was a poor, unmarried, 15-year-old virgin from Bethlehem.

Sure, a couple of popes are on this list, but as far as earthly wealth, none of them had it. Did they have full, faithful lives? You can bet on it. Were their lives any easier, because of their faith? Not at all. But their faith made their crosses sweeter and easier to bear.

God never promised us a rose garden, like Joel Osteen tries to say. People need to know that they are not all going to become millionaires with multiple jets and fancy suits, if they pray. I know for sure I'm not, and I don't expect to be rich. In fact, I don't want the money. More money, more problems.

What we need to do about it is tell people the truth. The time is over for cotton-candy messages like Mr. Osteen's. The truth hurts, but our hearts were not made for this cheap, plastic, feel-good, pseudo-gospel. We were made for something greater. We were made to make something beautiful out of our lives, even in the midst of pain and darkness.

It's like Michelangelo making the Pieta. Had he not poured his blood (literally, he bled making the Pieta), sweat, and tears into it, it would not have been the beautiful work it was. Luckily, he did, and he turned his pain and depression into something glorious.

Yeah but Joel Osteen doesn't believe in Saints, no?

Probably not.

I would recommend he read "The Story of A Soul" by St. Therese of Lisieux, one of the ultimate Anti-Prosperity saints. She writes that it's when we make ourselves small, and trust in God to be our strength in hard times, that we find happiness and peace. She loved being small, meek, and innocent, and she embraced all her sufferings, because she would offer them to God and find peace in doing so.

And this is, again, a little 24-year-old Carmelite nun who suffered from TB and major depression in the last two years of her life. She was such a beautiful person...my gosh. Even the devil was scared of her, because of her strength and her sweetness. A flower with a stem made of iron.

Mr. Osteen could learn a lifetime of lessons from her. In fact, somebody should, like, mail him that book for his birthday. Just to see what happens when he reads it.

[Menassa]

Yeah but Joel Osteen doesn't believe in Saints, no?

Probably not.

I would recommend he read "The Story of A Soul" by St. Therese of Lisieux, one of the ultimate Anti-Prosperity saints. She writes that it's when we make ourselves small, and trust in God to be our strength in hard times, that we find happiness and peace. She loved being small, meek, and innocent, and she embraced all her sufferings, because she would offer them to God and find peace in doing so.

And this is, again, a little 24-year-old Carmelite nun who suffered from TB and major depression in the last two years of her life. She was such a beautiful person...my gosh. Even the devil was scared of her, because of her strength and her sweetness. A flower with a stem made of iron.

Mr. Osteen could learn a lifetime of lessons from her. In fact, somebody should, like, mail him that book for his birthday. Just to see what happens when he reads it.

He probably wouldn't find much ground with Catholic heroes.

[Luminesa]

Probably not.

I would recommend he read "The Story of A Soul" by St. Therese of Lisieux, one of the ultimate Anti-Prosperity saints. She writes that it's when we make ourselves small, and trust in God to be our strength in hard times, that we find happiness and peace. She loved being small, meek, and innocent, and she embraced all her sufferings, because she would offer them to God and find peace in doing so.

And this is, again, a little 24-year-old Carmelite nun who suffered from TB and major depression in the last two years of her life. She was such a beautiful person...my gosh. Even the devil was scared of her, because of her strength and her sweetness. A flower with a stem made of iron.

Mr. Osteen could learn a lifetime of lessons from her. In fact, somebody should, like, mail him that book for his birthday. Just to see what happens when he reads it.

He probably wouldn't find much ground with Catholic heroes.

Hey, it's worth a shot. :3

[Menassa]

He probably wouldn't find much ground with Catholic heroes.

Hey, it's worth a shot. :3

I assume it would be like sending it to a person of a different faith.

[Luminesa]

Hey, it's worth a shot. :3

I assume it would be like sending it to a person of a different faith.

I dunno how Osteen feels about Catholicism, but I mean...I don't think he'd try to burn it, or whatever. I can't see him as the, "The-Church-is-the-Whore-of-Babylon" type of fundamentalist.

[Sun Wukong]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

it's ludicrous. Book of Job, anybody???

Job, if anything, seems to support this. At the end Job's blessings are multiplied. The only caveat Job attaches is that you should keep on believing things will work out, even when they seem to be going badly. Which is probably an idea the Prosperity Gospel very much needs.

[Luminesa]

it's ludicrous. Book of Job, anybody???

Job, if anything, seems to support this. At the end Job's blessings are multiplied. The only caveat Job attaches is that you should keep on believing things will work out, even when they seem to be going badly. Which is probably an idea the Prosperity Gospel very much needs.

Job doesn't support it, because the Prosperity Gospel says that basically a person who is faithful is gonna have it easy.

And Job sure as heck didn't have it easy. :/

But I do agree that the Prosperity Gospel does need to see that people have to have faith, even life gets bad.

[Sun Wukong]

Job, if anything, seems to support this. At the end Job's blessings are multiplied. The only caveat Job attaches is that you should keep on believing things will work out, even when they seem to be going badly. Which is probably an idea the Prosperity Gospel very much needs.

Job doesn't support it, because the Prosperity Gospel says that basically a person who is faithful is gonna have it easy.

And Job sure as heck didn't have it easy. :/

But I do agree that the Prosperity Gospel does need to see that people have to have faith, even life gets bad.

Well I don't want to seem as though I'm defending these guys, but even I think the Prosperity Gospel's theology is probably more complex than: "do what we say and only good things will always happen to you, forever."

Job didn't have it easy, but he did have a net-gain (well, allegedly.), which is probably most of what the Prosperity Gospel promises. And, of course, any inconsistencies can be chalked-up to lack of faith.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

it's ludicrous. Book of Job, anybody???

In the Book of Job, Job was prosperous because he kept the law

[Tarsonis Survivors]

So I know it's not quite on subject here, but I'm trying to get as many opinions as possible. I've been on track to go back in the marines, but now I'm finding other opportunities that I never even dreamed about 2 years ago. Like Possibly going to Notre Dame for a Masters of Theological Studies. What do yall think I should do?

[Luminesa]

Job doesn't support it, because the Prosperity Gospel says that basically a person who is faithful is gonna have it easy.

And Job sure as heck didn't have it easy. :/

But I do agree that the Prosperity Gospel does need to see that people have to have faith, even life gets bad.

Well I don't want to seem as though I'm defending these guys, but even I think the Prosperity Gospel's theology is probably more complex than: "do what we say and only good things will always happen to you, forever."

Job didn't have it easy, but he did have a net-gain (well, allegedly.), which is probably most of what the Prosperity Gospel promises. And, of course, any inconsistencies can be chalked-up to lack of faith.

That's what I've gotten from it. I dunno, I don't wanna go listen to one of Joel Osteen's talks, to go find out. I'm listening to "Hotel California", which is far more interesting than one of his bland talks.

Sure, he had a net gain, but at the same time, the Prosperity Gospel is indeed an exploitation of this story. Again, nobody ever said Joel Osteen is giving a strong, powerful message of sacrificial love and making beauty out of pain.

I dunno, maybe Fr. Robert Barron explains it better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ip4Jx92F94

Nevertheless, I will never accept Mr. Osteen's teachings. They are a genuine load of baloney.

[Sun Wukong]

Well I don't want to seem as though I'm defending these guys, but even I think the Prosperity Gospel's theology is probably more complex than: "do what we say and only good things will always happen to you, forever."

Job didn't have it easy, but he did have a net-gain (well, allegedly.), which is probably most of what the Prosperity Gospel promises. And, of course, any inconsistencies can be chalked-up to lack of faith.

That's what I've gotten from it. I dunno, I don't wanna go listen to one of Joel Osteen's talks, to go find out. I'm listening to "Hotel California", which is far more interesting than one of his bland talks.

Sure, he had a net gain, but at the same time, the Prosperity Gospel is indeed an exploitation of this story. Again, nobody ever said Joel Osteen is giving a strong, powerful message of sacrificial love and making beauty out of pain.

I dunno, maybe Fr. Robert Barron explains it better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ip4Jx92F94

Nevertheless, I will never accept Mr. Osteen's teachings. They are a genuine load of baloney.

Well, trust me, I'm not trying to convince you to. It's just hard for me to believe sometimes that people can actually, authentically be that stupid.

[The Archregimancy]

So what do you guys think of the Prosperity Gospel? People preaching that if you just pray right and have enough faith, God will reward you with money and favors in this life?

I find it horrifically exploitative even moreso than religion as a whole, but no one's really going to listen to an atheist on these matters.

Is there anything you think should be done about it?

It's a sickening doctrine that disgusts me, and that I consider to be an active betrayal of Christian theology.

Is that strong enough for you?


Theologically it seems to be based on misrepresenting the Parable of the Talents - the only New Testament support prosperity gospel supporters seem to be able to dredge up - and then ignoring both a string of unambiguous direct statements from Jesus about the problems presented by wealth, and those sections of Acts about communitarian living within early Christianity.

I'm not surprised that its historical roots and its main area of success are with middle-class Americans (and latterly with middle-class Koreans), but I am disappointed by its 20th-century growth.



But ROT (I can call you ROT, can't I? My father knew Bertrand Russell, so I don't feel entirely comfortable calling you 'Russel'), I've noticed a minor tendency on your part to focus on strands of American evangelical Protestantism when you're critiquing or asking about specific forms of Christian doctrine - as opposed to general critiques of theism, which is a separate issue - whether it's prosperity gospel theology or the perception that Hell is an eternity of vicious torture.

You've also acknowledged, to your credit, that this may be in part because evangelical American Christians are so loud and shouty and politically active, particularly in the country where you live - but globally they remain a relatively small minority of Christians, and it's no real surprise that they're generally given fairly short shrift in a thread dominated by Christianity's Catholic and Orthodox majority.

I think American perceptions on Christian doctrine may be distorted by the demographic differences shown in these two graphs:

So it's no wonder that many Americans give undue prominence to Protestant perspectives, particularly evangelical Protestant perspectives, in theological discussion; but on an international site it should equally be no surprise that the global majority are better represented.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Job didn't have it easy, but he did have a net-gain (well, allegedly.), which is probably most of what the Prosperity Gospel promises. And, of course, any inconsistencies can be chalked-up to lack of faith.

That's actually what I consider most disgusting about it. I've read about old ladies dying of cancer who are in despair because they pray as hard as they can and put all their faith in God but they still don't get better and according to prosperity gospel that means that there must be something wrong with their faith.

[Constantinopolis]

These two comments can sum up my views of the Prosperity "Gospel":

It is a heretical doctrine that promotes greed. To quote Luke 12:15, "Man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

It's a sickening doctrine that disgusts me, and that I consider to be an active betrayal of Christian theology.

It is not just any heresy (i.e. false doctrine). A heresy can be well-intentioned, or it can be so esoteric that it's mostly harmless. But the Prosperity "Gospel" is neither. It is an evil movement, which perversely turns Christianity into its opposite, and Christ into Mammon. The Church should always denounce it in the harshest terms, and Christians should never associate with those apostles of greed who call themselves "preachers" of the Prosperity "Gospel".

The Prosperity "Gospel" is on par with Scientology in my book.

[Bunkeranlage]

These two comments can sum up my views of the Prosperity "Gospel":

It is a heretical doctrine that promotes greed. To quote Luke 12:15, "Man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

It's a sickening doctrine that disgusts me, and that I consider to be an active betrayal of Christian theology.

It is not just any heresy (i.e. false doctrine). A heresy can be well-intentioned, or it can be so esoteric that it's mostly harmless. But the Prosperity "Gospel" is neither. It is an evil movement, which perversely turns Christianity into its opposite, and Christ into Mammon. The Church should always denounce it in the harshest terms, and Christians should never associate with those apostles of greed who call themselves "preachers" of the Prosperity "Gospel".

The Prosperity "Gospel" is on par with Scientology in my book.

^

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I guess no one has any thoughts?

[Sun Wukong]

I guess no one has any thoughts!

They have all achieved a state of emptiness through meditation, and are approaching Nirvana.