NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread IV

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
315
34%
Eastern Orthodox
65
7%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East , etc.)
10
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
57
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
86
9%
Methodist
30
3%
Baptist
104
11%
Pentecostal
31
3%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
36
4%
Other Christian
200
21%
 
Total votes : 934

User avatar
Aelex
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Posts: 11398
Founded: Jun 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Aelex » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:10 am

Consumer Regulated Donuts wrote:I'm at a point in my life where I'm confused. Let me explain:

I've been raised my whole life as a Roman Catholic, attending Church weekly and Sunday classes until I was 13 or 14. I had always believed what I was told and I willingly believed as well. I was never super active in Church (doing readings, choir, altar boy/girl etc.) but I was always a believer. Now, well now I'm at a crossroads. I go to a religiously tolerant, Catholic-oriented high school after going to public middle/elementary/grammar schools. I do believe in a Christian-like God (and I'll tolerate anything, I believe there is a god out there for everybody), but I just can't align myself with the Catholic Churches 2000 year old views on issues I just don't agree with (Homosexuality, Abortion, Stem Cells etc.) as well as the constant pressing of the faith onto others and non-believers. I believe that God's original message of love and peace is being completely tarnished by hate and violence in this world from all religious groups. Although I'm a huge fan of what the new pope is doing, it has really alienated me from the church and some friends. I still feel spiritual, and believe in many Biblical concepts (Afterlife [but not Paradise Lost's view of it], Miracles, Original Sin etc). I also enjoy prayer and feeling connected and loved by God.

How should I classify myself, what should I do?

Should I remain spiritual and pray and believe in God my own way or continue being a Catholic? I know I might get the usual "only you can decide" answers, but I would really appreciate some stories or explanations from others on this issue. Thanks a lot. I'll read the answers in the morning as I'm very tired. :hug:

Keep being a catholic.
I have the same issue as you, but I found the way to answer them correctly.
I just understood that my politicals/personnals beliefs hadn't to be the same as the church's one.
The church is only spiritual and shouldn't give temporal advices (aka abortion/homosexuality). Thus, you can just ignore them and only focus on the spiritual's one.
Well, I have some problems to correctly express myself in English when I talk about things as importants, but I hope you understood what I meaned. :)
Citoyen Français. Bonapartiste Républicain (aka De Gaule's Gaullisme) with Keynesian leanings on economics. Latin Christian.

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:13 am

Consumer Regulated Donuts wrote:I'm at a point in my life where I'm confused. Let me explain:

I've been raised my whole life as a Roman Catholic, attending Church weekly and Sunday classes until I was 13 or 14. I had always believed what I was told and I willingly believed as well. I was never super active in Church (doing readings, choir, altar boy/girl etc.) but I was always a believer. Now, well now I'm at a crossroads. I go to a religiously tolerant, Catholic-oriented high school after going to public middle/elementary/grammar schools. I do believe in a Christian-like God (and I'll tolerate anything, I believe there is a god out there for everybody), but I just can't align myself with the Catholic Churches 2000 year old views on issues I just don't agree with (Homosexuality, Abortion, Stem Cells etc.) as well as the constant pressing of the faith onto others and non-believers. I believe that God's original message of love and peace is being completely tarnished by hate and violence in this world from all religious groups. Although I'm a huge fan of what the new pope is doing, it has really alienated me from the church and some friends. I still feel spiritual, and believe in many Biblical concepts (Afterlife [but not Paradise Lost's view of it], Miracles, Original Sin etc). I also enjoy prayer and feeling connected and loved by God.

How should I classify myself, what should I do?

Should I remain spiritual and pray and believe in God my own way or continue being a Catholic? I know I might get the usual "only you can decide" answers, but I would really appreciate some stories or explanations from others on this issue. Thanks a lot. I'll read the answers in the morning as I'm very tired. :hug:


Your practical options seem what Arch suggested. I'd also argue that Catholics can disagree with church doctrine as a matter of personal belief, and indeed, I've known some Catholics who do and up to this day keep disagreeing over some of the doctrines even though they actually are Catholics, and they are rather faithful and stick to many of the Catholic Church's doctrines.

Just because you're Catholic or Protestant doesn't mean you can't disagree as a matter of practice. Ideologically all religions and denominations asks for 100% commitment to the doctrines and practices of such religions and denominations, as a matter of practice though not everyone agrees 100% with anything.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Aelex
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Posts: 11398
Founded: Jun 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Aelex » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:15 am

The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:Continue being Catholic, and work on re-aligning your views to fit with infallible Catholic doctrine. Modern 'morality' as it is so called, is false and hedonistic.

Well, if I just wanted to finish to disgust him, I wouldn't have sayed better... :roll:
Still, don't listen to him, you can be both Catholic and Modern. The tip is to just to conciliate your faith and your moral and not agree stupidly to each thing the church say.
Last edited by Aelex on Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Citoyen Français. Bonapartiste Républicain (aka De Gaule's Gaullisme) with Keynesian leanings on economics. Latin Christian.

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Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:16 am

Aelex wrote:
Consumer Regulated Donuts wrote:I'm at a point in my life where I'm confused. Let me explain:

I've been raised my whole life as a Roman Catholic, attending Church weekly and Sunday classes until I was 13 or 14. I had always believed what I was told and I willingly believed as well. I was never super active in Church (doing readings, choir, altar boy/girl etc.) but I was always a believer. Now, well now I'm at a crossroads. I go to a religiously tolerant, Catholic-oriented high school after going to public middle/elementary/grammar schools. I do believe in a Christian-like God (and I'll tolerate anything, I believe there is a god out there for everybody), but I just can't align myself with the Catholic Churches 2000 year old views on issues I just don't agree with (Homosexuality, Abortion, Stem Cells etc.) as well as the constant pressing of the faith onto others and non-believers. I believe that God's original message of love and peace is being completely tarnished by hate and violence in this world from all religious groups. Although I'm a huge fan of what the new pope is doing, it has really alienated me from the church and some friends. I still feel spiritual, and believe in many Biblical concepts (Afterlife [but not Paradise Lost's view of it], Miracles, Original Sin etc). I also enjoy prayer and feeling connected and loved by God.

How should I classify myself, what should I do?

Should I remain spiritual and pray and believe in God my own way or continue being a Catholic? I know I might get the usual "only you can decide" answers, but I would really appreciate some stories or explanations from others on this issue. Thanks a lot. I'll read the answers in the morning as I'm very tired. :hug:

Keep being a catholic.
I have the same issue as you, but I found the way to answer them correctly.
I just understood that my politicals/personnals beliefs hadn't to be the same as the church's one.
The church is only spiritual and shouldn't give temporal advices (aka abortion/homosexuality). Thus, you can just ignore them and only focus on the spiritual's one.
Well, I have some problems to correctly express myself in English when I talk about things as importants, but I hope you understood what I meaned. :)


That basically you don't follow the Church's advice on anything related to politics?

Now, I know what Flood would say, but I think you're a better Catholic for thinking for yourself.

I really don't believe Christ wanted people to mindlessly follow him. Then again I might be wrong on theological grounds on this one myself.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:20 am

Aelex wrote:
The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:Continue being Catholic, and work on re-aligning your views to fit with infallible Catholic doctrine. Modern 'morality' as it is so called, is false and hedonistic.

Well, if I just wanted to finish to disgust him, I wouldn't have sayed better... :roll:
Still, don't listen to him, you can be both Catholic and Modern. The tip is to just to conciliate your faith and your moral and not agree stupidly to each thing the church say.


I won't diss Flood, but I will say this: he sort of has a point, and it is a valid option. In the end though the poster asking us for help has to decide for him/herself what he or she wants to do.

Like I said above, ideologically people are supposed to not question and follow Catholic doctrine and practice, in practice though it's like every pragmatist views on ideologies: only good on paper, but once you get down to it there's many practical considerations that make you concede your ideology.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Aelex
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Posts: 11398
Founded: Jun 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Aelex » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:25 am

Soldati senza confini wrote:That basically you don't follow the Church's advice on anything related to politics?

Now, I know what Flood would say, but I think you're a better Catholic for thinking for yourself.

I really don't believe Christ wanted people to mindlessly follow him. Then again I might be wrong on theological grounds on this one myself.

Indeed, that's exactly what I meaned.
And thanks, really, hearing such a compliment, especially coming from a person I esteem, quite make my day! :hug:
Citoyen Français. Bonapartiste Républicain (aka De Gaule's Gaullisme) with Keynesian leanings on economics. Latin Christian.

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Czechanada
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Posts: 14851
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
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Postby Czechanada » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:30 am

Could one theoretically give up church for Lent?

Also, didn't Christians used to have to fully fast in the fashion of Ramadan for the duration of Lent? I remember there being something like that in the Czech Catholic tradition.
"You know what I was. You see what I am. Change me, change me!" - Randall Jarrell.

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Aelex
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Founded: Jun 05, 2013
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Postby Aelex » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:40 am

Czechanada wrote:Could one theoretically give up church for Lent?

Also, didn't Christians used to have to fully fast in the fashion of Ramadan for the duration of Lent? I remember there being something like that in the Czech Catholic tradition.

Well, not so much, but yep, for Carême, you should eat less/no meat, eat more fish and drink a lot of water.
I guess the Catholic Church invented the diet almost two millenary before Weight Watcher (that is strangely prononced Wet Washer in my country... :p )...
Citoyen Français. Bonapartiste Républicain (aka De Gaule's Gaullisme) with Keynesian leanings on economics. Latin Christian.

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Menassa
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Posts: 33837
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am

Consumer Regulated Donuts wrote:I'm at a point in my life where I'm confused. Let me explain:

I've been raised my whole life as a Roman Catholic, attending Church weekly and Sunday classes until I was 13 or 14. I had always believed what I was told and I willingly believed as well. I was never super active in Church (doing readings, choir, altar boy/girl etc.) but I was always a believer. Now, well now I'm at a crossroads. I go to a religiously tolerant, Catholic-oriented high school after going to public middle/elementary/grammar schools. I do believe in a Christian-like God (and I'll tolerate anything, I believe there is a god out there for everybody), but I just can't align myself with the Catholic Churches 2000 year old views on issues I just don't agree with (Homosexuality, Abortion, Stem Cells etc.) as well as the constant pressing of the faith onto others and non-believers. I believe that God's original message of love and peace is being completely tarnished by hate and violence in this world from all religious groups. Although I'm a huge fan of what the new pope is doing, it has really alienated me from the church and some friends. I still feel spiritual, and believe in many Biblical concepts (Afterlife [but not Paradise Lost's view of it], Miracles, Original Sin etc). I also enjoy prayer and feeling connected and loved by God.

How should I classify myself, what should I do?

Should I remain spiritual and pray and believe in God my own way or continue being a Catholic? I know I might get the usual "only you can decide" answers, but I would really appreciate some stories or explanations from others on this issue. Thanks a lot. I'll read the answers in the morning as I'm very tired. :hug:

Well I've heard the Church doesn't really proselytize to Jews... so not every non-believer.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
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"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
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Consumer Regulated Donuts
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Posts: 111
Founded: May 20, 2013
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Postby Consumer Regulated Donuts » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:36 am

Thank you all for the nice answers and its good to know I'm not alone. I have a tough decision ahead of me.
I prefer to be called "Donuts" over anything else, thank you!

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Menassa
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Founded: Aug 11, 2010
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Postby Menassa » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:42 am

Consumer Regulated Donuts wrote:Thank you all for the nice answers and its good to know I'm not alone. I have a tough decision ahead of me.

Good luck!
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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The United Neptumousian Empire
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Founded: Dec 02, 2014
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Postby The United Neptumousian Empire » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:08 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Aelex wrote:Well, if I just wanted to finish to disgust him, I wouldn't have sayed better... :roll:
Still, don't listen to him, you can be both Catholic and Modern. The tip is to just to conciliate your faith and your moral and not agree stupidly to each thing the church say.


I won't diss Flood, but I will say this: he sort of has a point, and it is a valid option. In the end though the poster asking us for help has to decide for him/herself what he or she wants to do.

Like I said above, ideologically people are supposed to not question and follow Catholic doctrine and practice, in practice though it's like every pragmatist views on ideologies: only good on paper, but once you get down to it there's many practical considerations that make you concede your ideology.
On the contrary, you may indeed question doctrine all you want. It is rejecting doctrine that results in heresy. Questioning a doctrine is the only way one can come to truly accept it through informed reason.

I also only said what I said because he said he disagreed with the Church on abortion, which I believe to be unacceptable. It is quite possible to reconcile the Church's stance on gay marriage without rejecting any doctrine, however. I for one, support the secular institution of gay marriage. Theologically marriage is between a man and a woman and God, but there's nothing theological about state marriage, nor is there any significant harm done to society by allowing gay marriages.
Last edited by The United Neptumousian Empire on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Personality Type: INFJ
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Nordengrund
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Posts: 7531
Founded: Jun 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Nordengrund » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:56 pm

The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
I won't diss Flood, but I will say this: he sort of has a point, and it is a valid option. In the end though the poster asking us for help has to decide for him/herself what he or she wants to do.

Like I said above, ideologically people are supposed to not question and follow Catholic doctrine and practice, in practice though it's like every pragmatist views on ideologies: only good on paper, but once you get down to it there's many practical considerations that make you concede your ideology.
On the contrary, you may indeed question doctrine all you want. It is rejecting doctrine that results in heresy. Questioning a doctrine is the only way one can come to truly accept it through informed reason.

I also only said what I said because he said he disagreed with the Church on abortion, which I believe to be unacceptable. It is quite possible to reconcile the Church's stance on gay marriage without rejecting any doctrine, however. I for one, support the secular institution of gay marriage. Theologically marriage is between a man and a woman and God, but there's nothing theological about state marriage, nor is there any significant harm done to society by allowing gay marriages.


Except you have people who want to force churches to marry gays. Also the institution of marriage as a life long commitment with a partner and to raise children. Gay marriage would be pointless.

If you want to debate me, I will have to do it tomorrow as I do not get off work until 10 pm
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Barrera
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Founded: Mar 17, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Barrera » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:49 pm

I'm a practising Christian. I attend church regularly (though not always weekly). I was raised non-denominational Protestant (which I guess is a form of 'primary denomination'). As kids we attended an ecumenical church which was run by a Methodist minister. When I was older, I attended an Anglican church not too far from my home.

I'd like to belong to a specific denomination but I'm not sure what's right for me. :?

I dislike episcopalian hierarchy and prefer congregational or elected governance. I believe salvation is a choice and that those who choose to be saved can be through baptism, acceptance of Jesus as Lord and through good works. I don't believe salvation is pre-chosen or otherwise predestined. I think baptism is the sole sacrament that is necessary but I also believe you don't have to be physically baptised to become Christian (I think this is what "believers baptism" refers to?). I don't think saints are holy or to be revered as anything other than good examples to be followed. Finally, I believe the Eucharist is purely symbolic: I don't believe it transforms into the physical body and blood of Christ but rather just represents His sacrifice for us.

I'm not sure what all of that adds up to. There's so many denominations that I can rarely make odds nor ends of them!
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Angleter
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Posts: 12359
Founded: Apr 27, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Angleter » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:23 pm

The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
I won't diss Flood, but I will say this: he sort of has a point, and it is a valid option. In the end though the poster asking us for help has to decide for him/herself what he or she wants to do.

Like I said above, ideologically people are supposed to not question and follow Catholic doctrine and practice, in practice though it's like every pragmatist views on ideologies: only good on paper, but once you get down to it there's many practical considerations that make you concede your ideology.
On the contrary, you may indeed question doctrine all you want. It is rejecting doctrine that results in heresy. Questioning a doctrine is the only way one can come to truly accept it through informed reason.

I also only said what I said because he said he disagreed with the Church on abortion, which I believe to be unacceptable. It is quite possible to reconcile the Church's stance on gay marriage without rejecting any doctrine, however. I for one, support the secular institution of gay marriage. Theologically marriage is between a man and a woman and God, but there's nothing theological about state marriage, nor is there any significant harm done to society by allowing gay marriages.


I think things are far more blurry than you make out regarding abortion - though I accept that it's heretical to believe that abortion is not sinful, I don't think one can say with any certainty that proponents of the "personally opposed, but" defence are heretics (and I suspect it could come down to what comes after the "but"). This is the closest specific thing I could find regarding an attempt to prosecute a politician who adopts that line for heresy (it doesn't seem to have been actually entertained by the Vatican). One thing which, in my reading, doesn't seem to have been addressed by anyone is the precedent it would set to confirm as divinely-revealed dogma the belief that civil authorities must make sin illegal - sodomy and blasphemy are particularly provocative cases which spring to mind.
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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Posts: 4024
Founded: Jan 20, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:29 pm

Nordengrund wrote:If you want to debate me, I will have to do it tomorrow as I do not get off work until 10 pm

I guess I'll just leave this here, then.
Except you have people who want to force churches to marry gays.
Who? I certainly wouldn't support that, nor would anyone I know, and I travel in some pretty deeply liberal, secular, atheistic circles.
I mean, I heard about one case in England but that only wasn't laughed out of the courtroom because the Church of England has official state support.
Also the institution of marriage as a life long commitment with a partner and to raise children. Gay marriage would be pointless.

As would marriage between sterile people?
Also, are you under the impression that gay couples do not frequently adopt children, who would otherwise go without loving homes?

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Angleter
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Postby Angleter » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:34 pm

Barrera wrote:I'm a practising Christian. I attend church regularly (though not always weekly). I was raised non-denominational Protestant (which I guess is a form of 'primary denomination'). As kids we attended an ecumenical church which was run by a Methodist minister. When I was older, I attended an Anglican church not too far from my home.

I'd like to belong to a specific denomination but I'm not sure what's right for me. :?

I dislike episcopalian hierarchy and prefer congregational or elected governance. I believe salvation is a choice and that those who choose to be saved can be through baptism, acceptance of Jesus as Lord and through good works. I don't believe salvation is pre-chosen or otherwise predestined. I think baptism is the sole sacrament that is necessary but I also believe you don't have to be physically baptised to become Christian (I think this is what "believers baptism" refers to?). I don't think saints are holy or to be revered as anything other than good examples to be followed. Finally, I believe the Eucharist is purely symbolic: I don't believe it transforms into the physical body and blood of Christ but rather just represents His sacrifice for us.

I'm not sure what all of that adds up to. There's so many denominations that I can rarely make odds nor ends of them!


It sounds like you'd fit best in the Anglican or the Methodist Church (not that I'm much of an expert on what either denomination traditionally teaches), but obviously the Anglican Church has an episcopal polity. Methodist groups generally don't have bishops (although some do, if along different lines to the normal episcopal polity), so I'd perhaps suggest you look into them first?
[align=center]"I gotta tell you, this is just crazy, huh! This is just nuts, OK! Jeezo man."

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Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:43 pm

Angleter wrote:
The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:On the contrary, you may indeed question doctrine all you want. It is rejecting doctrine that results in heresy. Questioning a doctrine is the only way one can come to truly accept it through informed reason.

I also only said what I said because he said he disagreed with the Church on abortion, which I believe to be unacceptable. It is quite possible to reconcile the Church's stance on gay marriage without rejecting any doctrine, however. I for one, support the secular institution of gay marriage. Theologically marriage is between a man and a woman and God, but there's nothing theological about state marriage, nor is there any significant harm done to society by allowing gay marriages.


I think things are far more blurry than you make out regarding abortion - though I accept that it's heretical to believe that abortion is not sinful, I don't think one can say with any certainty that proponents of the "personally opposed, but" defence are heretics (and I suspect it could come down to what comes after the "but"). This is the closest specific thing I could find regarding an attempt to prosecute a politician who adopts that line for heresy (it doesn't seem to have been actually entertained by the Vatican). One thing which, in my reading, doesn't seem to have been addressed by anyone is the precedent it would set to confirm as divinely-revealed dogma the belief that civil authorities must make sin illegal - sodomy and blasphemy are particularly provocative cases which spring to mind.


And that's my issue with abortion talks and other issues where Christian doctrine conflicts with secular law.

For instance, I am with the churches that abortion is sinful. However, although I am ideologically opposed to abortion I am tolerant of it in practice given the fact that countries which have banned abortion has shown to have an adverse effect in public health because all attempts have been unregulated and mismanaged to the point of creating either cases like in El Salvador, where the law is struggling right now with this particular issue after almost 50 years of a complete ban on abortion per the constitution, or like in Romania, in which Ceaucescu's pro-life policy left the country with several issues they are yet to completely address successfully.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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The Princes of the Universe
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Posts: 14506
Founded: Jan 12, 2015
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Postby The Princes of the Universe » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Angleter wrote:I think things are far more blurry than you make out regarding abortion - though I accept that it's heretical to believe that abortion is not sinful, I don't think one can say with any certainty that proponents of the "personally opposed, but" defence are heretics (and I suspect it could come down to what comes after the "but"). This is the closest specific thing I could find regarding an attempt to prosecute a politician who adopts that line for heresy (it doesn't seem to have been actually entertained by the Vatican). One thing which, in my reading, doesn't seem to have been addressed by anyone is the precedent it would set to confirm as divinely-revealed dogma the belief that civil authorities must make sin illegal - sodomy and blasphemy are particularly provocative cases which spring to mind.

And that's my issue with abortion talks and other issues where Christian doctrine conflicts with secular law.
For instance, I am with the churches that abortion is sinful. However, although I am ideologically opposed to abortion I am tolerant of it in practice given the fact that countries which have banned abortion has shown to have an adverse effect in public health because all attempts have been unregulated and mismanaged to the point of creating either cases like in El Salvador, where the law is struggling right now with this particular issue after almost 50 years of a complete ban on abortion per the constitution, or like in Romania, in which Ceaucescu's pro-life policy left the country with several issues they are yet to completely address successfully.

I definitely know it's gotta go. What I don't know is how to accomplish that in a manner both efficient and compassionate.
As for Ceaușescu's Romania, that strikes me as far less pro-life and more anti-plummeting birth rates.
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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:08 pm

Consumer Regulated Donuts wrote:I'm at a point in my life where I'm confused. Let me explain:

I've been raised my whole life as a Roman Catholic, attending Church weekly and Sunday classes until I was 13 or 14. I had always believed what I was told and I willingly believed as well. I was never super active in Church (doing readings, choir, altar boy/girl etc.) but I was always a believer. Now, well now I'm at a crossroads. I go to a religiously tolerant, Catholic-oriented high school after going to public middle/elementary/grammar schools. I do believe in a Christian-like God (and I'll tolerate anything, I believe there is a god out there for everybody), but I just can't align myself with the Catholic Churches 2000 year old views on issues I just don't agree with (Homosexuality, Abortion, Stem Cells etc.) as well as the constant pressing of the faith onto others and non-believers. I believe that God's original message of love and peace is being completely tarnished by hate and violence in this world from all religious groups. Although I'm a huge fan of what the new pope is doing, it has really alienated me from the church and some friends. I still feel spiritual, and believe in many Biblical concepts (Afterlife [but not Paradise Lost's view of it], Miracles, Original Sin etc). I also enjoy prayer and feeling connected and loved by God.

How should I classify myself, what should I do?

Should I remain spiritual and pray and believe in God my own way or continue being a Catholic? I know I might get the usual "only you can decide" answers, but I would really appreciate some stories or explanations from others on this issue. Thanks a lot. I'll read the answers in the morning as I'm very tired. :hug:


I would pray on it and read more about what the Church believes. That would definitely help.

I understand where you're coming from. When I was about 10-12, I had a lot of trouble understanding the Church's teachings on the Holy Eucharist. I wasn't sure how it made sense. So, I prayed about it, talked to my priest, and I read about it. After that, I felt a like I definitely loved the Holy Eucharist, and understood it a little more.

So give it time and think about it.

And you don't have to press your faith on others. What draws people to your faith is not how many Bible verses you can quote, but how you present yourself. Are you bitter and withdrawn about your faith? Or do you light up a room when you walk in? Do you let people know you love your faith? People are gonna be drawn to a cheerful, happy Catholic, like a St. Francis of Assisi or a Mother Teresa. :3

And just so you know, I love Papa Francisco, too. He's legit. What do your friends not like about him?

Your sister in Christ is praying for you! :hug: :hug: :hug:
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The Princes of the Universe
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Postby The Princes of the Universe » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:14 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Consumer Regulated Donuts wrote:
I'm at a point in my life where I'm confused. Let me explain:
I've been raised my whole life as a Roman Catholic, attending Church weekly and Sunday classes until I was 13 or 14. I had always believed what I was told and I willingly believed as well. I was never super active in Church (doing readings, choir, altar boy/girl etc.) but I was always a believer. Now, well now I'm at a crossroads. I go to a religiously tolerant, Catholic-oriented high school after going to public middle/elementary/grammar schools. I do believe in a Christian-like God (and I'll tolerate anything, I believe there is a god out there for everybody), but I just can't align myself with the Catholic Churches 2000 year old views on issues I just don't agree with (Homosexuality, Abortion, Stem Cells etc.) as well as the constant pressing of the faith onto others and non-believers. I believe that God's original message of love and peace is being completely tarnished by hate and violence in this world from all religious groups. Although I'm a huge fan of what the new pope is doing, it has really alienated me from the church and some friends. I still feel spiritual, and believe in many Biblical concepts (Afterlife [but not Paradise Lost's view of it], Miracles, Original Sin etc). I also enjoy prayer and feeling connected and loved by God.
How should I classify myself, what should I do?
Should I remain spiritual and pray and believe in God my own way or continue being a Catholic? I know I might get the usual "only you can decide" answers, but I would really appreciate some stories or explanations from others on this issue. Thanks a lot. I'll read the answers in the morning as I'm very tired. :hug:

I would pray on it and read more about what the Church believes. That would definitely help.
I understand where you're coming from. When I was about 10-12, I had a lot of trouble understanding the Church's teachings on the Holy Eucharist. I wasn't sure how it made sense. So, I prayed about it, talked to my priest, and I read about it. After that, I felt a like I definitely loved the Holy Eucharist, and understood it a little more.
So give it time and think about it.
And you don't have to press your faith on others. What draws people to your faith is not how many Bible verses you can quote, but how you present yourself. Are you bitter and withdrawn about your faith? Or do you light up a room when you walk in? Do you let people know you love your faith? People are gonna be drawn to a cheerful, happy Catholic, like a St. Francis of Assisi or a Mother Teresa. :3
And just so you know, I love Papa Francisco, too. He's legit. What do your friends not like about him?
Your sister in Christ is praying for you! :hug: :hug: :hug:

I'll join in on that prayer myself. :hug:
Also, drop me some TGs if you think it would help. I'm a convert, so I still sort of have some outside-looking-in perspective.
Pro dolorosa Eius passione, miserere nobis et totius mundi.

In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti.
Domine Iesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei, peccatoris.


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Coffee Cakes
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Postby Coffee Cakes » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:29 pm

Nordengrund wrote:
The United Neptumousian Empire wrote:On the contrary, you may indeed question doctrine all you want. It is rejecting doctrine that results in heresy. Questioning a doctrine is the only way one can come to truly accept it through informed reason.

I also only said what I said because he said he disagreed with the Church on abortion, which I believe to be unacceptable. It is quite possible to reconcile the Church's stance on gay marriage without rejecting any doctrine, however. I for one, support the secular institution of gay marriage. Theologically marriage is between a man and a woman and God, but there's nothing theological about state marriage, nor is there any significant harm done to society by allowing gay marriages.


Except you have people who want to force churches to marry gays. Also the institution of marriage as a life long commitment with a partner and to raise children. Gay marriage would be pointless.

If you want to debate me, I will have to do it tomorrow as I do not get off work until 10 pm


Gay parents can raise children, and capably, too.

But the real reason I'm replying to this post is because of the forced weddings. It piqued my interest, tbh.
I'm not a fan of them. But, I would like someday to get married in a church, maybe even the one I attend, that would be great, but I don't want it forced upon churches, because I can't see anything good coming out of it.
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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:33 pm

Consumer Regulated Donuts wrote:I'm at a point in my life where I'm confused. Let me explain:

I've been raised my whole life as a Roman Catholic, attending Church weekly and Sunday classes until I was 13 or 14. I had always believed what I was told and I willingly believed as well. I was never super active in Church (doing readings, choir, altar boy/girl etc.) but I was always a believer. Now, well now I'm at a crossroads. I go to a religiously tolerant, Catholic-oriented high school after going to public middle/elementary/grammar schools. I do believe in a Christian-like God (and I'll tolerate anything, I believe there is a god out there for everybody), but I just can't align myself with the Catholic Churches 2000 year old views on issues I just don't agree with (Homosexuality, Abortion, Stem Cells etc.) as well as the constant pressing of the faith onto others and non-believers. I believe that God's original message of love and peace is being completely tarnished by hate and violence in this world from all religious groups. Although I'm a huge fan of what the new pope is doing, it has really alienated me from the church and some friends. I still feel spiritual, and believe in many Biblical concepts (Afterlife [but not Paradise Lost's view of it], Miracles, Original Sin etc). I also enjoy prayer and feeling connected and loved by God.

How should I classify myself, what should I do?

Should I remain spiritual and pray and believe in God my own way or continue being a Catholic? I know I might get the usual "only you can decide" answers, but I would really appreciate some stories or explanations from others on this issue. Thanks a lot. I'll read the answers in the morning as I'm very tired. :hug:


As an atheist, my advice is to figure out what's important to you, what your principles are, and resolve yourself one way or the other.

Psychological studies have found that the worst outcomes for mental health are among those who experience prolonged doubt, and feel insecure about the world and their place in it. Staunch atheists and devout religious people both had much better outcomes.

So figure out what your principles are, and find something that aligns with your principles.

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The Princes of the Universe
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Postby The Princes of the Universe » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:35 pm

Coffee Cakes wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:Except you have people who want to force churches to marry gays. Also the institution of marriage as a life long commitment with a partner and to raise children. Gay marriage would be pointless.
If you want to debate me, I will have to do it tomorrow as I do not get off work until 10 pm

Gay parents can raise children, and capably, too.
But the real reason I'm replying to this post is because of the forced weddings. It piqued my interest, tbh.
I'm not a fan of them. But, I would like someday to get married in a church, maybe even the one I attend, that would be great, but I don't want it forced upon churches, because I can't see anything good coming out of it.

As odd as this sounds, if my church ever finds grounds anywhere in Sacred Tradition for solemnising same-sex couples in any form, I would actually rather it not be in the form of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. That to me has a specific purpose in addition to the blessing of their love, and a same-sex couple can't fulfill it (since they can't have children together the old-fashioned way). There is precedent for something like what I envision though.
Last edited by The Princes of the Universe on Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pro dolorosa Eius passione, miserere nobis et totius mundi.

In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti.
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Coffee Cakes
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Postby Coffee Cakes » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:45 pm

The Princes of the Universe wrote:
Coffee Cakes wrote:Gay parents can raise children, and capably, too.
But the real reason I'm replying to this post is because of the forced weddings. It piqued my interest, tbh.
I'm not a fan of them. But, I would like someday to get married in a church, maybe even the one I attend, that would be great, but I don't want it forced upon churches, because I can't see anything good coming out of it.

As odd as this sounds, if my church ever finds grounds anywhere in Sacred Tradition for solemnising same-sex couples in any form, I would actually rather it not be in the form of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. That to me has a specific purpose in addition to the blessing of their love, and a same-sex couple can't fulfill it (since they can't have children together the old-fashioned way). There is precedent for something like what I envision though.


I don't honestly believe it would be realistic to have same sex unions in Holy Matrimony, not even thinking about the grounds for it.
What I personally would appreciate and be thankful for if it ever happened, would be just recognition and spiritual encouragement, i guess, is the word I'm looking for.
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