NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread IV

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
315
34%
Eastern Orthodox
65
7%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East , etc.)
10
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
57
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
86
9%
Methodist
30
3%
Baptist
104
11%
Pentecostal
31
3%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
36
4%
Other Christian
200
21%
 
Total votes : 934

User avatar
Constantinopolis
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7501
Founded: Antiquity
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Constantinopolis » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:23 pm

Angleter wrote:
The Third Nova Terra of Scrin wrote:Can I ask the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic peoples here what are the differences between Catholic and Orthodox practices and liturgy?

That's a tricky one. There are Byzantine Rite Catholics whose liturgical practices are more or less identical to Orthodox ones (save for some imports from the Roman Rite, which are frowned upon by the hierarchy). The main difference, therefore, would be that while the Orthodox Church has one single rite (the Byzantine Rite, in Catholic parlance), the Catholic Church has many - there's the dominant Roman Rite (with a number of localised 'uses' and two universal 'forms'), several other Latin Rites used in certain localities (such as Milan's Ambrosian Rite) and certain religious orders (such as the Dominican Rite), as well as the rites specific to Eastern Catholic churches (Byzantine Rite, Maronite Rite, etc.).

But then in the Byzantine Rite (and perhaps other Eastern ones), there are different Divine Liturgies (i.e. the liturgy has different prayers) at different times in the year. And the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite has a variety of different prayer options. And massive stylistic differences within the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Really, I'd say the best way to identify the differences between the rites (and forms and uses) is to watch videos of them (or attend them, if at all possible).

This is correct, although I would add that since non-Latin-Rite Catholics are such a tiny minority (and they copied their practices from the Orthodox Church or the Oriental Communion anyway), it would be mostly accurate to refer to the Latin Rite as "Catholic practice and liturgy", and to the Byzantine Rite as "Orthodox practice and liturgy". The non-Latin Catholics (and the non-Byzantine Orthodox, which also exist, but are even fewer) can be left out for the sake of a basic introduction.

Angleter wrote:Byzantine Rite - Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in English (this seems to be by the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church)

That's not a good visual introduction to the Byzantine Rite, however, because the Liturgy is celebrated in a place that looks absolutely nothing like a normal Byzantine-Rite Catholic church (let alone an Orthodox one). There is no iconostasis, for one thing, so when doing the Little Entrance and the Great Entrance the clergy are pretending to pass through doors which do not exist. If this video is your introduction to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, you may not even realize that there are supposed to be doors for the clergy to pass through.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with celebrating the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in a place that has only an altar and nothing else (technically, all you need is an antimension, a consecrated cloth issued by the bishop, which can be placed on any flat surface to make an emergency altar). But that is very much the exception, not the rule. A good introduction should show the Liturgy as it is ordinarily celebrated. And this video does not show that.

So I went on YouTube to find a better example of what the average Orthodox Liturgy (i.e. Byzantine Rite liturgy) looks like. This also means excluding all those videos that show a Patriarch or a bishop celebrating the Liturgy, because that's a special form (a "hierarchical" Divine Liturgy - i.e. one celebrated by a member of the Church hierarchy) which does not accurately reflect the common Sunday experience. Of course, those also happen to be the most beautiful and professionally-recorded videos, so if you're interested in seeing a hierarchical Divine Liturgy in all its glory, let's just go all the way and have a look at the Paschal Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Patriarch of Russia in Moscow's Christ the Saviour Cathedral. That's about as extravagant as it gets.

But the common Sunday Liturgy looks like this:

Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom) in English and Arabic at St. Mary Antiochian Orthodox Church in Livonia, MI, in the United States
Last edited by Constantinopolis on Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Holy Socialist Republic of Constantinopolis
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile." -- Albert Einstein
Political Compass: Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.64
________________Communist. Leninist. Orthodox Christian.________________
Communism is the logical conclusion of Christian morality. "Whoever loves his neighbor as himself owns no more than his neighbor does", in the words of St. Basil the Great. The anti-theism of past Leninists was a tragic mistake, and the Church should be an ally of the working class.
My posts on the 12 Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church: -I- -II- -III- -IV- -V- -VI- -VII- -VIII- [PASCHA] -IX- -X- -XI- -XII-

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33851
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:24 pm

Lleu llaw Gyffes wrote:
Menassa wrote:That's not what he says though.

You can 'believe' whatever you wish, but if he was referring to that he would have made it clear... unless your Messiah wants his followers to guess for him, therefore leaving your interpretation that verse to be no greater than Tarsonis's or Distruzio's or Herkerstad's.



[...] Rabbis only became the priests of Judaism after 550 BC ish when the Temple had been destroyed and Judaism needed to be rebuilt from the remnants.

[...]

There are still priests in Judaism.
Remember what Amalek did to you on your journey --- Do not Forget!
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Benuty
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37330
Founded: Jan 21, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:26 pm

Menassa wrote:
Lleu llaw Gyffes wrote:

[...] Rabbis only became the priests of Judaism after 550 BC ish when the Temple had been destroyed and Judaism needed to be rebuilt from the remnants.

[...]

There are still priests in Judaism.

To be fair, there technically were priests even before the construction of the Second Temple :p.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
King of Madness in the Right Wing Discussion Thread. Winner of 2016 Posters Award for Insanity. Please be aware my posts in NSG, and P2TM are separate.

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:35 pm

Efraim-Judah wrote:
Menassa wrote:It's 613.

And these same Pharisees of which Jesus accepted their traditions.

Exactly. Yeshua was a Pharisee.


Your penchant for selective interpretation is truly astounding.

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 61228
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:17 pm

Efraim-Judah wrote:
Menassa wrote:It's 613.

And these same Pharisees of which Jesus accepted their traditions.

Exactly. Yeshua was a Pharisee.


:eyebrow:

In all my years of living, I have never heard this. You see, I say Jesus/Yeshua (same name, different languages) was not a Pharisee, because He came to create the New Covenant, which built off the Mosaic Law and expanded into something beyond the Jewish laws. Anyone here ever heard of St. Melito? He wrote about the typology between the Old Law and the New Law, and the succession of one into the other. Jesus did not get rid of the Old Law, but rather He took it and made something entirely new, according to St. Melito and Church Tradition.

If I sound jumbled, it's because I'm tired, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed. But I just wanted to know if anyone else is familiar with St. Melito of Sardis, on here. :)
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
Help the Ukrainian people, here's some sources!
Help bring home First Nation girls! Now with more ways to help!
Jesus loves all of His children in Eastern Europe - pray for peace.
Pray for Ukraine, Wear Sunflowers In Your Hair

User avatar
The Princes of the Universe
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14506
Founded: Jan 12, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby The Princes of the Universe » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:25 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Efraim-Judah wrote:Exactly. Yeshua was a Pharisee.

:eyebrow:
In all my years of living, I have never heard this. You see, I say Jesus/Yeshua (same name, different languages) was not a Pharisee, because He came to create the New Covenant, which built off the Mosaic Law and expanded into something beyond the Jewish laws. Anyone here ever heard of St. Melito? He wrote about the typology between the Old Law and the New Law, and the succession of one into the other. Jesus did not get rid of the Old Law, but rather He took it and made something entirely new, according to St. Melito and Church Tradition.
If I sound jumbled, it's because I'm tired, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed. But I just wanted to know if anyone else is familiar with St. Melito of Sardis, on here. :)

He was a Pharisee only insofar as He was not raised a Sadducee.
Pro dolorosa Eius passione, miserere nobis et totius mundi.

In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti.
Domine Iesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei, peccatoris.


User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:09 pm

The Princes of the Universe wrote:
Luminesa wrote: :eyebrow:
In all my years of living, I have never heard this. You see, I say Jesus/Yeshua (same name, different languages) was not a Pharisee, because He came to create the New Covenant, which built off the Mosaic Law and expanded into something beyond the Jewish laws. Anyone here ever heard of St. Melito? He wrote about the typology between the Old Law and the New Law, and the succession of one into the other. Jesus did not get rid of the Old Law, but rather He took it and made something entirely new, according to St. Melito and Church Tradition.
If I sound jumbled, it's because I'm tired, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed. But I just wanted to know if anyone else is familiar with St. Melito of Sardis, on here. :)

He was a Pharisee only insofar as He was not raised a Sadducee.



Except the common misconception is that Jews were either one of the two. You had the essenes as well, and most Jews were unaffiliated.

User avatar
Efraim-Judah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1721
Founded: Jan 13, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Efraim-Judah » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:17 pm

Conscentia wrote:Perhaps your discussion belongs of the JDT, rather than the CDT?
Messiah was Jewish and lived a Jewish Lifestyle. There is NO WAY to separate Judaism from Biblical Christianity (i.e. Messianic Judaism)
Last edited by Efraim-Judah on Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments" John 14:15

Blessed be He,who in His holiness gave The Torah to His people, Israel.

.יהודי שמאמין בישוע , נשאר יהודי

User avatar
Efraim-Judah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1721
Founded: Jan 13, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Efraim-Judah » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:19 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Efraim-Judah wrote:Exactly. Yeshua was a Pharisee.


:eyebrow:

In all my years of living, I have never heard this. You see, I say Jesus/Yeshua (same name, different languages) was not a Pharisee, because He came to create the New Covenant, which built off the Mosaic Law and expanded into something beyond the Jewish laws. Anyone here ever heard of St. Melito? He wrote about the typology between the Old Law and the New Law, and the succession of one into the other. Jesus did not get rid of the Old Law, but rather He took it and made something entirely new, according to St. Melito and Church Tradition.

If I sound jumbled, it's because I'm tired, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed. But I just wanted to know if anyone else is familiar with St. Melito of Sardis, on here. :)

It never expanded beyond Halacha! Yeshua observed the 613 Mitzvot and asked his followers to do the same. Yeshua NEVER got rid of the Old Law but instead allowed gentiles to walk in covenant with Adonai.
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments" John 14:15

Blessed be He,who in His holiness gave The Torah to His people, Israel.

.יהודי שמאמין בישוע , נשאר יהודי

User avatar
Efraim-Judah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1721
Founded: Jan 13, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Efraim-Judah » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:20 pm

Menassa wrote:
Efraim-Judah wrote:I believe the Messiah was probably referring to Deuteronomy 24:2-4 in this situation as well.

That's not what he says though.

You can 'believe' whatever you wish, but if he was referring to that he would have made it clear... unless your Messiah wants his followers to guess for him, therefore leaving your interpretation that verse to be no greater than Tarsonis's or Distruzio's or Herkerstad's.

I'm going to ask my Rabbi, because I am not satisfied with my own answer.
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments" John 14:15

Blessed be He,who in His holiness gave The Torah to His people, Israel.

.יהודי שמאמין בישוע , נשאר יהודי

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:32 pm

Efraim-Judah wrote:
Luminesa wrote:
:eyebrow:

In all my years of living, I have never heard this. You see, I say Jesus/Yeshua (same name, different languages) was not a Pharisee, because He came to create the New Covenant, which built off the Mosaic Law and expanded into something beyond the Jewish laws. Anyone here ever heard of St. Melito? He wrote about the typology between the Old Law and the New Law, and the succession of one into the other. Jesus did not get rid of the Old Law, but rather He took it and made something entirely new, according to St. Melito and Church Tradition.

If I sound jumbled, it's because I'm tired, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed. But I just wanted to know if anyone else is familiar with St. Melito of Sardis, on here. :)

It never expanded beyond Halacha! Yeshua observed the 613 Mitzvot and asked his followers to do the same. Yeshua NEVER got rid of the Old Law but instead allowed gentiles to walk in covenant with Adonai.


Except you know, when it was.

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:34 pm

Efraim-Judah wrote:
Conscentia wrote:Perhaps your discussion belongs of the JDT, rather than the CDT?
Messiah was Jewish and lived a Jewish Lifestyle. There is NO WAY to separate Judaism from Biblical Christianity (i.e. Messianic Judaism)


Except how the Bible separates Christians from Judaism. Hell the language in Mathew is so thoroughly separatist.

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:37 pm

Menassa wrote:
Efraim-Judah wrote:Yeshua then said, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery" (Matthew 19:7-9).

And the Torah says that the Divorce is because she does not find favor with him... nothing to do with immorality. As well the Talmud lists cases of Divorces for all reasons including burning food.

Jesus speaks against the Talmud here and the Torah.

How long will you waver between two opinions?


Hard for Jesus to speak against something that came much after him.

And ;) Revelations 3 says something about that last part. ;)
Last edited by Tarsonis Survivors on Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33851
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Menassa » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:26 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Menassa wrote:And the Torah says that the Divorce is because she does not find favor with him... nothing to do with immorality. As well the Talmud lists cases of Divorces for all reasons including burning food.

Jesus speaks against the Talmud here and the Torah.

How long will you waver between two opinions?


Hard for Jesus to speak against something that came much after him.

[...]

By that I meant the teachings within the Talmud officer.
Remember what Amalek did to you on your journey --- Do not Forget!
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
The Third Nova Terra of Scrin
Minister
 
Posts: 3019
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The Third Nova Terra of Scrin » Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:05 am

Constantinopolis wrote:
Angleter wrote:That's a tricky one. There are Byzantine Rite Catholics whose liturgical practices are more or less identical to Orthodox ones (save for some imports from the Roman Rite, which are frowned upon by the hierarchy). The main difference, therefore, would be that while the Orthodox Church has one single rite (the Byzantine Rite, in Catholic parlance), the Catholic Church has many - there's the dominant Roman Rite (with a number of localised 'uses' and two universal 'forms'), several other Latin Rites used in certain localities (such as Milan's Ambrosian Rite) and certain religious orders (such as the Dominican Rite), as well as the rites specific to Eastern Catholic churches (Byzantine Rite, Maronite Rite, etc.).

But then in the Byzantine Rite (and perhaps other Eastern ones), there are different Divine Liturgies (i.e. the liturgy has different prayers) at different times in the year. And the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite has a variety of different prayer options. And massive stylistic differences within the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. Really, I'd say the best way to identify the differences between the rites (and forms and uses) is to watch videos of them (or attend them, if at all possible).

This is correct, although I would add that since non-Latin-Rite Catholics are such a tiny minority (and they copied their practices from the Orthodox Church or the Oriental Communion anyway), it would be mostly accurate to refer to the Latin Rite as "Catholic practice and liturgy", and to the Byzantine Rite as "Orthodox practice and liturgy". The non-Latin Catholics (and the non-Byzantine Orthodox, which also exist, but are even fewer) can be left out for the sake of a basic introduction.

Angleter wrote:Byzantine Rite - Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in English (this seems to be by the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church)

That's not a good visual introduction to the Byzantine Rite, however, because the Liturgy is celebrated in a place that looks absolutely nothing like a normal Byzantine-Rite Catholic church (let alone an Orthodox one). There is no iconostasis, for one thing, so when doing the Little Entrance and the Great Entrance the clergy are pretending to pass through doors which do not exist. If this video is your introduction to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, you may not even realize that there are supposed to be doors for the clergy to pass through.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with celebrating the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in a place that has only an altar and nothing else (technically, all you need is an antimension, a consecrated cloth issued by the bishop, which can be placed on any flat surface to make an emergency altar). But that is very much the exception, not the rule. A good introduction should show the Liturgy as it is ordinarily celebrated. And this video does not show that.

So I went on YouTube to find a better example of what the average Orthodox Liturgy (i.e. Byzantine Rite liturgy) looks like. This also means excluding all those videos that show a Patriarch or a bishop celebrating the Liturgy, because that's a special form (a "hierarchical" Divine Liturgy - i.e. one celebrated by a member of the Church hierarchy) which does not accurately reflect the common Sunday experience. Of course, those also happen to be the most beautiful and professionally-recorded videos, so if you're interested in seeing a hierarchical Divine Liturgy in all its glory, let's just go all the way and have a look at the Paschal Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Patriarch of Russia in Moscow's Christ the Saviour Cathedral. That's about as extravagant as it gets.

But the common Sunday Liturgy looks like this:

Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom) in English and Arabic at St. Mary Antiochian Orthodox Church in Livonia, MI, in the United States


I appreciate a good introduction of someone who knows his Eastern Orthodox religion well on the topic. I always appreciate the aesthetics, style and manner of how Orthodox Christians do their worship and liturgy.
Economic Left/Right: 1.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.13
Pro: Christianity, capitalism, democracy, creationism, Russia, Israel, freedom and liberty, nationalism, pro-life
Anti: Islam, socialism, communism, evolution, secularism, atheism, U.S.A, UN, E.U, authoritarianism, totalitarianism, politically correct, pro-choice
We're not a theocracy albeit Christian. THE CORRECT NAME OF THIS NATION IS TANZHIYE.
Also, please refrain from referring to me by using male pronouns.
IATA Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyKkpdwLkiY - Hey! Hey! Hey! Start Dash!

User avatar
Conscentia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26681
Founded: Feb 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Conscentia » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:44 am

I feel like my response to Costantinopolis and new suggestion for the poll of CDT V was buried, and didn't get a response:
Conscentia wrote:
Constantinopolis wrote:Or people would just be confused and pick one of the last two options at random.

I can tell you from personal experience that before I read about the existence of independent non-denominational churches in America, I always assumed that "non-denominational" meant "Christians who aren't sure which church to pick". Most Christians live in countries that don't have any independent non-denominational churches - or have extremely few - and to those people, as to myself in the past, "non-denominational" sounds like it means "undecided".

Many years ago, before I was Orthodox, I myself identified as "non-denominational" in the sense of "undecided". Yet I had never set foot in a non-denominational church, and did not even know about their existence.

This is why I'm arguing so strongly about this. The non-denominational label is vague and confusing. It means different things to different people.

I don't see how non-denominational seems like it means undecided at all.
Are you sure it's not just you?
Constantinopolis wrote:And that's why we need to separate non-denominational Protestants from Other Christians (including Other Christians who are not part of any denomination). I would like a poll that enabled us to see clearly the number of Protestants, as opposed to having this ultra-vague "Non-Denominational Christian" category that would include some Protestants, some non-Protestants, and some people who should have clicked "Other Christian" but didn't.

Fine.

Constantinopolis wrote:But that suggestion suffers from double and even triple overlap between options (a), (b) and (c).

Suppose you're a Protestant who doesn't feel part of any denomination. Do you pick (a) or (b)? Both labels correctly describe you.
Suppose you're a NON-Protestant who doesn't feel part of any denomination. Do you pick (b) or (c)? Depending on what "non-denominational" sounds like in your mind, either one could be accurate.
Suppose you're a Messianic Jew, like Efraim-Judah. Do you pick (a), (b) or (c)? Either one could describe you.
Suppose you're a non-practicing Christian who mostly agrees with Protestant theology but doesn't go to church - a category which includes MANY people. Do you pick (a), (b) or (c)? You might be an "Other Protestant" because you agree with much of Protestant theology. Or you might be "non-denominational" because you're not an official member of any denomination. Or you might be an "Other Christian" because you think "non-denominational" means people who go to non-denominational churches, and you're not one of them.

So, you see, it's a mess. That's why I am firmly opposed to this multiplication of vague catch-all categories. Really, the best thing to do is to have an "Other Protestant" option somewhere and then an "Other Christian (non-Protestant)" option at the end, without any vague "non-denominational" label thrown in. People who don't feel like they're part of any denomination can then pick either one of these two, depending on whether they consider themselves Protestants or not.

Thus, my final proposal is the following:

Roman Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
Anglican/Episcopalian
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
Baptist
Pentecostal
Other Protestant
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
Other Christian (non-Protestant)That includes two catch-all categories, one for Protestants and one for non-Protestants. I really oppose the idea of having more than two. But it will ultimately be up to the mod who starts the 5th CDT to make the poll. I think we've both made our case, and there isn't much point to continuing this line of discussion.

How about this?:

Roman Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
Anglican/Episcopalian
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
Baptist
Other Protestant
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
Messianic Jew
Other Christian
Last edited by Conscentia on Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 61228
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:49 am

Efraim-Judah wrote:
Luminesa wrote:
:eyebrow:

In all my years of living, I have never heard this. You see, I say Jesus/Yeshua (same name, different languages) was not a Pharisee, because He came to create the New Covenant, which built off the Mosaic Law and expanded into something beyond the Jewish laws. Anyone here ever heard of St. Melito? He wrote about the typology between the Old Law and the New Law, and the succession of one into the other. Jesus did not get rid of the Old Law, but rather He took it and made something entirely new, according to St. Melito and Church Tradition.

If I sound jumbled, it's because I'm tired, and this is the last post I'm making before I go to bed. But I just wanted to know if anyone else is familiar with St. Melito of Sardis, on here. :)

It never expanded beyond Halacha! Yeshua observed the 613 Mitzvot and asked his followers to do the same. Yeshua NEVER got rid of the Old Law but instead allowed gentiles to walk in covenant with Adonai.


Yeah. I'm not saying He got rid of it, per say. The whole idea of Christianity was taking Judaism and expanding it into something new. The New Covenant fulfilled everything in the Old Testament, and it also superseded it and became the Church that we know today!
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
Help the Ukrainian people, here's some sources!
Help bring home First Nation girls! Now with more ways to help!
Jesus loves all of His children in Eastern Europe - pray for peace.
Pray for Ukraine, Wear Sunflowers In Your Hair

User avatar
Efraim-Judah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1721
Founded: Jan 13, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Efraim-Judah » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:15 am

Luminesa wrote:
Efraim-Judah wrote:It never expanded beyond Halacha! Yeshua observed the 613 Mitzvot and asked his followers to do the same. Yeshua NEVER got rid of the Old Law but instead allowed gentiles to walk in covenant with Adonai.


Yeah. I'm not saying He got rid of it, per say. The whole idea of Christianity was taking Judaism and expanding it into something new. The New Covenant fulfilled everything in the Old Testament, and it also superseded it and became the Church that we know today!

It did not supeersede anything. The New Covenant mentioned in the Old Covenant was just a rehashing of the old covenant, Messiah himself said he didn't come to destroy the law. And fufilling the law, doesn't mean it goes away or somehow becomes ineffective.
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments" John 14:15

Blessed be He,who in His holiness gave The Torah to His people, Israel.

.יהודי שמאמין בישוע , נשאר יהודי

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:40 am

Efraim-Judah wrote:
Luminesa wrote:
Yeah. I'm not saying He got rid of it, per say. The whole idea of Christianity was taking Judaism and expanding it into something new. The New Covenant fulfilled everything in the Old Testament, and it also superseded it and became the Church that we know today!

It did not supeersede anything. The New Covenant mentioned in the Old Covenant was just a rehashing of the old covenant, Messiah himself said he didn't come to destroy the law. And fufilling the law, doesn't mean it goes away or somehow becomes ineffective.


the bible disagrees. If you want to reject Paul's teachings well that's your prerogative I suppose, just doesn't make it right.

User avatar
Czechanada
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14851
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Czechanada » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:43 am

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Efraim-Judah wrote:It did not supeersede anything. The New Covenant mentioned in the Old Covenant was just a rehashing of the old covenant, Messiah himself said he didn't come to destroy the law. And fufilling the law, doesn't mean it goes away or somehow becomes ineffective.


the bible disagrees. If you want to reject Paul's teachings well that's your prerogative I suppose, just doesn't make it right.


Ah, that post reminds me of the good old days of when Bluth was around.
"You know what I was. You see what I am. Change me, change me!" - Randall Jarrell.

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:43 am

Czechanada wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
the bible disagrees. If you want to reject Paul's teachings well that's your prerogative I suppose, just doesn't make it right.


Ah, that post reminds me of the good old days of when Bluth was around.


Hahaha

User avatar
Pope Joan
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19500
Founded: Mar 11, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Pope Joan » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:45 am

Efraim-Judah wrote:
Conscentia wrote:Perhaps your discussion belongs of the JDT, rather than the CDT?
Messiah was Jewish and lived a Jewish Lifestyle. There is NO WAY to separate Judaism from Biblical Christianity (i.e. Messianic Judaism)


What about his repeated violations of the Sabbath?

So when he says he came to fulfill the law, it must not mean any sort of legalism.
"Life is difficult".

-M. Scott Peck

User avatar
Tarsonis Survivors
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15693
Founded: Feb 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:48 am

Pope Joan wrote:
Efraim-Judah wrote: Messiah was Jewish and lived a Jewish Lifestyle. There is NO WAY to separate Judaism from Biblical Christianity (i.e. Messianic Judaism)


What about his repeated violations of the Sabbath?

So when he says he came to fulfill the law, it must not mean any sort of legalism.


I don't think Efraim actually know what a Covenant is....

User avatar
The Archregimancy
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 30583
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:08 am

As Efraim is currently active in the thread - which tends to, erm, increase the frequency of posting activity - there's a good possibility we might break 500 pages overnight while I'm sleeping.

I'm therefore locking the thread while there's still a few pages to go, and will start the new thread in the next few minutes.

Please bear with me a mo....

Previous

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Autumn Wind, Celritannia, Dimetrodon Empire, Emotional Support Crocodile, Ifreann, Mesogiria, Pale Dawn, Port Carverton, Three Galaxies, Tiami, Uvolla

Advertisement

Remove ads