Christian Discussion Thread IV

[Terricon]

While I've come to appreciate Christianity far more than I used to, I always get twisted up in this logical fault:
If God created the world because he loved people, why is there still evil if the universe was forged out of some loving force? Now at this point one may cite, "he gave us free will". But what strikes me is that's pretty sadistic if he put us on Earth then knowing we'll be engaging in some evil. Why didn't he just never place us on Earth and have us love in Heaven with him? Maybe that wouldn't be genuine love, but then God could've defined the parameters of "genuine" and have lived eternally in peace knowing everyone uncompromisingly loves him.
Any suggestions, please?

[Mostrov]

If you want a bit of a theological moral issue, then what about this;

Prior to eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve had no moral autonomy (AKA free will) as they had no awareness of it - yet to eat from the Tree required a fundamentally morally autonomous action (an action of free will). Taken metaphorically or literally, its interesting to consider.

Seriously; there is a word to describe exactly this problem; Theodicy. Google that and take your pick; report back when you've covered the last 2000 years of debate on it.

[Jute]

While I've come to appreciate Christianity far more than I used to, I always get twisted up in this logical fault:
If God created the world because he loved people, why is there still evil if the universe was forged out of some loving force? Now at this point one may cite, "he gave us free will". But what strikes me is that's pretty sadistic if he put us on Earth then knowing we'll be engaging in some evil. Why didn't he just never place us on Earth and have us love in Heaven with him? Maybe that wouldn't be genuine love, but then God could've defined the parameters of "genuine" and have lived eternally in peace knowing everyone uncompromisingly loves him.
Any suggestions, please?

Maybe because God didn't and couldn't fool himself what "genuine" means and rather would have every human grow up to be self-sufficient and a good person on their own, like a truly caring parent who knows you can't keep your children forever and still will like them no matter what?
If you're interested in more, just use Google or another search engine and type in "problem of evil".

[Land Der Volkeren]

So, in short, the Father in Orthodox churches is seen as a mystery (negative theology) and in the (western) Catholic church the Father is given human attributes, am I right?


The Dutch student of theology again here, new nation.

[Benuty]

So that's where the name comes from?

No. But Wiccans like to pretend it is.

Got to keep up a reputation even if you mainly just use your religion for sex parties (referring to the founder not the individual Wiccans).

[The Alexanderians]

No. But Wiccans like to pretend it is.

Got to keep up a reputation even if you mainly just use your religion for sex parties (referring to the founder not the individual Wiccans).

Did he really? That's...both a surprise and at the same time not one at all.

[Confederate Ramenia]

No. But Wiccans like to pretend it is.

Got to keep up a reputation even if you mainly just use your religion for sex parties (referring to the founder not the individual Wiccans).

Compare "I'm an atheist let's have sex" with "I follow the true religion of my ancient ancestors who in the primeval forests of Europe practiced ancient magic. Let us celebrate the Goddess and the Horned God with intercourse." Then you'll have some more understanding for Gardner.

[The Alexanderians]

Got to keep up a reputation even if you mainly just use your religion for sex parties (referring to the founder not the individual Wiccans).

Compare "I'm an atheist let's have sex" with "I follow the true religion of my ancient ancestors who in the primeval forests of Europe practiced ancient magic. Let us celebrate the Goddess and the Horned God with intercourse." Then you'll have some more understanding for Gardner.

That comparison makes more sense. That being said I know a number of wiccans that aren't into the whole "Let's bump uglies for our faith" thing, I mean they have sex often but not on the scale of sex parties and rarely casual hook ups. I wonder if that's a coven thing or if they're just casual observers.

[Confederate Ramenia]

Compare "I'm an atheist let's have sex" with "I follow the true religion of my ancient ancestors who in the primeval forests of Europe practiced ancient magic. Let us celebrate the Goddess and the Horned God with intercourse." Then you'll have some more understanding for Gardner.

That comparison makes more sense. That being said I know a number of wiccans that aren't into the whole "Let's bump uglies for our faith" thing, I mean they have sex often but not on the scale of sex parties and rarely casual hook ups. I wonder if that's a coven thing or if they're just casual observers.

No, the average Wiccan has about the same amount of sex as the average (US) Christian. It's actually a very legitimate, non-cultish religion for its size.

[The Alexanderians]

That comparison makes more sense. That being said I know a number of wiccans that aren't into the whole "Let's bump uglies for our faith" thing, I mean they have sex often but not on the scale of sex parties and rarely casual hook ups. I wonder if that's a coven thing or if they're just casual observers.

No, the average Wiccan has about the same amount of sex as the average (US) Christian. It's actually a very legitimate, non-cultish religion for its size.

I never said it was a cult, and the scale of often I used is like you said on par with the average American.

[Constantinopolis]

Guys, um... it's not Sunday yet...

So wait... Christmas gets like a whole goddamn month, if not more, in which it - and the associated well-wishing - is inescapably omnipresent...

That's a very annoying American habit, probably created by the consumerist frenzy built up by modern capitalism every December.

The 40 days before Christmas are the season of Advent, or the Nativity Fast. I never wish anyone "Merry Christmas" in that time, unless I'm saying goodbye to someone that I don't expect to see again until after Christmas.

The ancient Christian tradition is to have the season of celebration and well-wishing for a given holiday after the holiday itself. The Christmas season is from December 25 to January 4, and the Easter season is from the Sunday of Resurrection until the feast of Ascension 40 days later.

Before a major holiday we fast and repent; after the holiday we celebrate.

So that's where the name comes from?

No. But Wiccans like to pretend it is.

It's always ridiculous when people - not just Wiccans, by the way, but lots of people of many different faiths or no faith - try to find the "roots" of Christian holidays in Germanic or Celtic paganism. Don't they realize how absurd that is? For one thing, Germanic paganism (or the version we know about from historical sources, at least) came many centuries after the rise of Christianity. Our knowledge of Norse myths, for example, is based on manuscripts written in... the 13th century. Of course, they recorded earlier oral traditions, but those oral traditions were absolutely not 1200 years old. They were a few centuries old at best - making them still at least 800-900 years younger than Christianity.

Christianity arose in the Levant. If you want to look for influences from other religions upon Christianity, you have to look at religions that were practiced in the Eastern Mediterranean or the Middle East about 2000 years ago - not thousands of kilometers away and several centuries later.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

That comparison makes more sense. That being said I know a number of wiccans that aren't into the whole "Let's bump uglies for our faith" thing, I mean they have sex often but not on the scale of sex parties and rarely casual hook ups. I wonder if that's a coven thing or if they're just casual observers.

No, the average Wiccan has about the same amount of sex as the average (US) Christian. It's actually a very legitimate, non-cultish religion for its size.

Some people forget to draw the distinction between Wicca, and neo-paganism. Those cultic orgies are more common in Neo-paganism of Gaelic origin, than in Wicca.

[H-Alba]

No, the average Wiccan has about the same amount of sex as the average (US) Christian. It's actually a very legitimate, non-cultish religion for its size.

Some people forget to draw the distinction between Wicca, and neo-paganism. Those cultic orgies are more common in Neo-paganism of Gaelic origin, than in Wicca.

We have orgies? O,O I've really been missing out! (As you put it, neo-pagan of Gaelic origin)

In any case, no longer a Christian but have a great easter everyone. As my late mum and dad would have said, tha Crìosd air èiridh! (Christ is risen!)

[Sun Wukong]

So wait... Christmas gets like a whole goddamn month, if not more, in which it - and the associated well-wishing - is inescapably omnipresent...

That's a very annoying American habit, probably created by the consumerist frenzy built up by modern capitalism every December.

The 40 days before Christmas are the season of Advent, or the Nativity Fast. I never wish anyone "Merry Christmas" in that time, unless I'm saying goodbye to someone that I don't expect to see again until after Christmas.

The ancient Christian tradition is to have the season of celebration and well-wishing for a given holiday after the holiday itself. The Christmas season is from December 25 to January 4, and the Easter season is from the Sunday of Resurrection until the feast of Ascension 40 days later.

Before a major holiday we fast and repent; after the holiday we celebrate.

Even under this rhetoric, telling someone to "have a happy Easter" should still be tolerable. It is future tense after all (well, English doesn't really have a future tense - except preserved archaically in the Lord's Prayer - but the auxiliary verb is a dead give away.) In fact, I see no reason why this couldn't be said at any point during the year, beyond the odd timing of it.

But you've made your point. I will never ever well-wish Christians again. Happy?

[The Alexanderians]

That's a very annoying American habit, probably created by the consumerist frenzy built up by modern capitalism every December.

The 40 days before Christmas are the season of Advent, or the Nativity Fast. I never wish anyone "Merry Christmas" in that time, unless I'm saying goodbye to someone that I don't expect to see again until after Christmas.

The ancient Christian tradition is to have the season of celebration and well-wishing for a given holiday after the holiday itself. The Christmas season is from December 25 to January 4, and the Easter season is from the Sunday of Resurrection until the feast of Ascension 40 days later.

Before a major holiday we fast and repent; after the holiday we celebrate.

Even under this rhetoric, telling someone to "have a happy Easter" should still be tolerable. It is future tense after all (well, English doesn't really have a future tense - except preserved archaically in the Lord's Prayer - but the auxiliary verb is a dead give away.) In fact, I see no reason why this couldn't be said at any point during the year, beyond the odd timing of it.

But you've made your point. I will never ever well-wish Christians again. Happy?

Who stepped in your cornflakes?

[Coffee Cakes]

Happy Easter folks!

[The Alexanderians]

Here's a topic that's a bit odd considering for some people it's Easter (I'm in the same same boat as Arch and Constantinopolis we have Pascha on the 12th), but I was wondering what the different Christian stances on suicide are.

[Sebastianbourg]

Here's a topic that's a bit odd considering for some people it's Easter (I'm in the same same boat as Arch and Constantinopolis we have Pascha on the 12th), but I was wondering what the different Christian stances on suicide are.

I am with Constantinopolis (I believe it was who wrote the post I am thinking about) on this issue; when one thinks of the struggles of early Christians and of in general those of our predecessors most of our problems seem...well, not so bad.

[Constantinopolis]

So... since it is Sunday and I haven't said it before... Happy Easter to all Catholic and Protestant Christians! CHRIST IS RISEN!

Have a most joyous feast of the Resurrection, brothers and sisters!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

And for my fellow Orthodox: Happy Palm Sunday!
Hosanna in the highest! Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord!



Some hymns for the occasion on YouTube:
Troparion of Palm Sunday (in English)
Troparion of Palm Sunday (in several different languages)
Canon of Lazarus (in English)
Rejoice O Bethany (in English)

Troparion:

By raising Lazarus from the dead before Your passion,
You did confirm the universal Resurrection, O Christ God!
Like the children with the palms of victory,
We cry out to You, O Vanquisher of death;
Hosanna in the Highest!
Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord!

Kontakion:

Sitting on Your throne in heaven,
And carried on a foal on earth, O Christ God!
Accept the praise of angels and the songs of children who sing:
Blessed is He that comes to recall Adam!

* * * * * * *

And since the Oriental Churches and their traditions do not get the exposure they deserve in this thread, here is a beautiful hymn I found for Palm Sunday, from the Malankara (Indian) Church:

Yerushalem Puriyil

[Constantinopolis]

That's a very annoying American habit, probably created by the consumerist frenzy built up by modern capitalism every December.

The 40 days before Christmas are the season of Advent, or the Nativity Fast. I never wish anyone "Merry Christmas" in that time, unless I'm saying goodbye to someone that I don't expect to see again until after Christmas.

The ancient Christian tradition is to have the season of celebration and well-wishing for a given holiday after the holiday itself. The Christmas season is from December 25 to January 4, and the Easter season is from the Sunday of Resurrection until the feast of Ascension 40 days later.

Before a major holiday we fast and repent; after the holiday we celebrate.

Even under this rhetoric, telling someone to "have a happy Easter" should still be tolerable. It is future tense after all (well, English doesn't really have a future tense - except preserved archaically in the Lord's Prayer - but the auxiliary verb is a dead give away.) In fact, I see no reason why this couldn't be said at any point during the year, beyond the odd timing of it.

But you've made your point. I will never ever well-wish Christians again. Happy?

Clearly there was a massive failure on my part to convey the proper tone through written text. If I came across as angry or upset at the idea of wishing people "Happy Easter" before the day of Easter itself, that was not my intention at all. What actually happened was that I started by being mildly surprised at the early "Happy Easter" posts, and then in my response to your post (the one you quote above), I was just trying to provide a helpful explanation for why I find the custom of early holiday wishes to be strange.

I didn't mean to sound irate or hostile, or to suggest that early holiday wishes are a horrible thing. They're really a non-issue, only worth discussing because it provided an opportunity to talk about the difference between ancient and contemporary Christian habits.

So, I apologize!

[The Alexanderians]

So... since it is Sunday and I haven't said it before... Happy Easter to all Catholic and Protestant Christians! CHRIST IS RISEN!
-snip-

Are you a priest? Or at least a deacon?
You seem far more knowledgeable than the typical layperson.

[Constantinopolis]

So... since it is Sunday and I haven't said it before... Happy Easter to all Catholic and Protestant Christians! CHRIST IS RISEN!
-snip-

Are you a priest? Or at least a deacon?
You seem far more knowledgeable than the typical layperson.

No, I am a layperson. So is Arch, of course, and he is considerably more knowledgeable than me. I don't think we have any ordained clergy posting in this thread, actually.

A few people have suggested to me that I should seek to become ordained as a deacon. I am keeping that in mind as a possibility for a later stage in my life. Much later - perhaps around the time of retirement. But definitely not now. I do not feel that is God's calling for me.

[Sebastianbourg]

Are you a priest? Or at least a deacon?
You seem far more knowledgeable than the typical layperson.

No, I am a layperson. So is Arch, of course, and he is considerably more knowledgeable than me. I don't think we have any ordained clergy posting in this thread, actually.

A few people have suggested to me that I should seek to become ordained as a deacon. I am keeping that in mind as a possibility for a later stage in my life. Much later - perhaps around the time of retirement. But definitely not now. I do not feel that is God's calling for me.

If your words are as clear and instructive as your posts in this thread I am certain that you be an excellent deacon should you ever choose to follow that path.

[The Alexanderians]

Are you a priest? Or at least a deacon?
You seem far more knowledgeable than the typical layperson.

No, I am a layperson. So is Arch, of course, and he is considerably more knowledgeable than me. I don't think we have any ordained clergy posting in this thread, actually.

A few people have suggested to me that I should seek to become ordained as a deacon. I am keeping that in mind as a possibility for a later stage in my life. Much later - perhaps around the time of retirement. But definitely not now. I do not feel that is God's calling for me.

I see, I wouldn't be surprised if you're responsible for a number of converts though. I kind of understand what you're saying though, people have told me I should try to become a deacon or atleast set my sights on sub-deacon. My priest has supported my toying with the idea of being a reader, I'm kind of on the fence about even that small step though and I don't feel like I'm the right person to enter the clergy. I'm kind of happy just being an alter server.

[Narland]

So... since it is Sunday and I haven't said it before... Happy Easter to all Catholic and Protestant Christians! CHRIST IS RISEN!

Have a most joyous feast of the Resurrection, brothers and sisters!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

And for my fellow Orthodox: Happy Palm Sunday!
Hosanna in the highest! Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord!

(Image)

Some hymns for the occasion on YouTube:
Troparion of Palm Sunday (in English)
Troparion of Palm Sunday (in several different languages)
Canon of Lazarus (in English)
Rejoice O Bethany (in English)

Troparion:

By raising Lazarus from the dead before Your passion,
You did confirm the universal Resurrection, O Christ God!
Like the children with the palms of victory,
We cry out to You, O Vanquisher of death;
Hosanna in the Highest!
Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord!

Kontakion:

Sitting on Your throne in heaven,
And carried on a foal on earth, O Christ God!
Accept the praise of angels and the songs of children who sing:
Blessed is He that comes to recall Adam!

* * * * * * *

And since the Oriental Churches and their traditions do not get the exposure they deserve in this thread, here is a beautiful hymn I found for Palm Sunday, from the Malankara (Indian) Church:

Yerushalem Puriyil

Thank you for sharing that.
He is risen indeed! A joyous Easter to you.

I come from a tradtion that avoids the term Easter rather calling it Pascha/Passover and Resurrection Sunday for some reason--still--
He has risen! Yes, He has risen indeed!