Christian Discussion Thread IV

[The Archregimancy]

(Although, I once came across a Catholic church where people were actually kowtowing to a statue of a particular saint. Not so sure if that still counts as intercession...)

If by "kowtowing", you mean "prostration"...

That's a fairly standard part of eastern Christianity, and has been for centuries - indeed, it's likely that Islam adapted the practice of prostration in prayer from Syriac Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostration#Christianity

I can't speak for Catholics, but prostration before relics and some icons is by no means unusual in eastern Christianity.

[Bunkeranlage]

I have a serious question I've always wanted to ask a group of Christians.
Don't be too hard on me, I'm being serious.

1)Why (assuming you are) are you guys against gay marriage or gays in general?
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say homosexuality is a sin.

2)In Leviticus, Moses said that, and he was addressing a very small, very specific group of Jews.
Not only that, Jesus' coming supposedly fulfilled the Old Testament. That's why the NT was written.

3)There was, I believe, one mentioning of homosexuality by one of Jesus' apostles (not Jesus).
Once again, he wasn't too specific and he was talking about Romans in particular.

4)I've also heard the argument that it isn't natural, but plenty of animals practice homosexuality on a regular basis.

5)What happened to loving thy neighbor?
6)If you really think gay people will burn, why not let them get married and be happy while they are here and just worry about your own salvation?

1) Using WBC as an e.g. : Not all Christians are as homophobic the WBC. A joint statement released by the Methodists, Anglicans and a few other denominations condemns their homophobia in this statement:

We do not share their hatred of lesbian and gay people. We believe that God loves all, irrespective of sexual orientation, and we unreservedly stand against their message of hate toward those communities. Neither the style nor substance of their preaching expresses the historic, orthodox Christian faith. And we ask that the members of Westboro Baptist Church refrain from stirring up any more homophobic hatred in the UK or elsewhere.

Regarding homosexuality itself: One of the reasons for marriage would be for reproduction, and a same-gender couple can't reproduce as far as medicine is concerned now. Also, as Christians, we believe that we were created for male-female marriage, and believe that two people of the same gender marrying is a mockery of a normal marriage.

2) What's your point by this statement?

3) Could you cite the verse?

4) We're not animals. We have been gifted with sentience, which allows us to rationalise, unlike animals. The animals will, therefore, act on impulse and / or mere arousal, while we have the ability to choose between what we consider right or wrong.

5) See point 1

6) My view is this; that we share about the Bible's message and allow the person to decide for himself. To force him/her to convert would be sinking to the level of the Crusaders. There's a reason why we have free will. We can either choose to reject God or to embrace Him. Which is, I believe, why God is so glad every time a person chooses Him, rather than live an autonomous life.

Now, about the point: Nobody is forcing them to have a normal marriage. They have free will, let them decide what they want to do.

This is all from a liberal Christian, so if you want to hear a conservative viewpoint, I'm not a very good source.

[Menassa]

No it does, but it would appear the commandments weren't for just those Jews at that time, but for all Jews always.

It's not like any Jews (or Christians) follow Leviticus anyways.
When was the last time you saw someone wearing one type of cloth and sacrificing a goat/bull for their sins?

On the contrary my friend! By not sacrificing animals the Jews are following Leviticus.

Duteronomy 12:13-14
Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.

And I have never worn a thread of wool and linen.

[Bunkeranlage]

(Although, I once came across a Catholic church where people were actually kowtowing to a statue of a particular saint. Not so sure if that still counts as intercession...)

If by "kowtowing", you mean "prostration"...

That's a fairly standard part of eastern Christianity, and has been for centuries - indeed, it's likely that Islam adapted the practice of prostration in prayer from Syriac Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostration#Christianity

I can't speak for Catholics, but prostration before relics and some icons is by no means unusual in eastern Christianity.

Not prostration, I'm pretty sure. The person was literally on her knees and bowing in a very mechanical, almost Buddhist looking way...

[Bunkeranlage]

It's not like any Jews (or Christians) follow Leviticus anyways.
When was the last time you saw someone wearing one type of cloth and sacrificing a goat/bull for their sins?

On the contrary my friend! By not sacrificing animals the Jews are following Leviticus.

Duteronomy 12:13-14
Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.

And I have never worn a thread of wool and linen.

So, now that the temple doesn't exist anymore, how do Jews hold sacrificial rituals?

[Valica]

The animal sacrifice can't happen because there is no Temple to do it in, and thus it can not occur.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
(cotton and polyester? leather?)

Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
(rare? medium rare?)

Do not practice divination or seek omens.
(TV preachers?)

Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
(anyone who's ever gone to the barber?)

Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
(anyone who has ever gotten a tattoo?)

When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
(Americans and the border crisis?)

Plenty of laws in Leviticus that nobody follows, but everyone focuses on the anti-gay one.

[Menassa]

On the contrary my friend! By not sacrificing animals the Jews are following Leviticus.

Duteronomy 12:13-14
Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.

And I have never worn a thread of wool and linen.

So, now that the temple doesn't exist anymore, how do Jews hold sacrificial rituals?

Well there is first something you must understand about the sacrificial system.
It worked as a training ritual for unintentional sins, it required a contrite heart, and no intentional sin could be whisked away by an animal sacrifice.

If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven …The person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the Lord; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him.

(Numbers 15:27-31)

So how is it we atone without Sacrifices you ask?

Take words with you, and return to the Lord. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips.”
(Hosea 14:2-3)

[Menassa]

The animal sacrifice can't happen because there is no Temple to do it in, and thus it can not occur.

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
(cotton and polyester? leather?)

Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
(rare? medium rare?)

Do not practice divination or seek omens.
(TV preachers?)

Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
(anyone who's ever gone to the barber?)

Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
(anyone who has ever gotten a tattoo?)

When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
(Americans and the border crisis?)

Plenty of laws in Leviticus that nobody follows, but everyone focuses on the anti-gay one.

Who is nobody?

[Conscentia]

[...]
Regarding homosexuality itself: One of the reasons for marriage would be for reproduction, and a same-gender couple can't reproduce as far as medicine is concerned now. Also, as Christians, we believe that we were created for male-female marriage, and believe that two people of the same gender marrying is a mockery of a normal marriage.
[...]

Don't have a same-sex marriage then. Thy religion should not interfere with matters of the State.

[The Archregimancy]

If by "kowtowing", you mean "prostration"...

That's a fairly standard part of eastern Christianity, and has been for centuries - indeed, it's likely that Islam adapted the practice of prostration in prayer from Syriac Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostration#Christianity

I can't speak for Catholics, but prostration before relics and some icons is by no means unusual in eastern Christianity.

Not prostration, I'm pretty sure. The person was literally on her knees and bowing in a very mechanical, almost Buddhist looking way...

Errr.... yes?

Obviously it's difficult to judge without video, but that doesn't sound too unusual to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rDMXN-NcVI

[Czechanada]

I was under the assumption that prostration was also a common method of prayer in England at least during the 14th century.

[Valica]

Plenty of laws in Leviticus that nobody follows, but everyone focuses on the anti-gay one.

Who is nobody?

90% of people who identify as Christian or Jewish don't follow those laws.

[Bunkeranlage]

Who is nobody?

90% of people who identify as Christian or Jewish don't follow those laws.

And where does that statistic come from?

[Bunkeranlage]

Not prostration, I'm pretty sure. The person was literally on her knees and bowing in a very mechanical, almost Buddhist looking way...

Errr.... yes?

Obviously it's difficult to judge without video, but that doesn't sound too unusual to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rDMXN-NcVI

Oh well, I suppose it would seem strange to liberal Christians like me but not too Orthodox ones...

[Mostrov]

Apologies for quote editing, as I usually like to present them as a single message.

1)Why (assuming you are) are you guys against gay marriage or gays in general?
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say homosexuality is a sin.

1) Using WBC as an e.g. : Not all Christians are as homophobic the WBC. A joint statement released by the Methodists, Anglicans and a few other denominations condemns their homophobia in this statement:

We do not share their hatred of lesbian and gay people. We believe that God loves all, irrespective of sexual orientation, and we unreservedly stand against their message of hate toward those communities. Neither the style nor substance of their preaching expresses the historic, orthodox Christian faith. And we ask that the members of Westboro Baptist Church refrain from stirring up any more homophobic hatred in the UK or elsewhere.

Because I seem to have become an unofficial spokesperson for all things Anglican I would add that this is with the same firm stance that the CoE has made regarding same-sex marriage (It is decidedly against) and for homosexual celibacy, so again an Anglican is a tricky fish and can always present things both ways. Mere sophistry after-all.

Regarding homosexuality itself: One of the reasons for marriage would be for reproduction, and a same-gender couple can't reproduce as far as medicine is concerned now. Also, as Christians, we believe that we were created for male-female marriage, and believe that two people of the same gender marrying is a mockery of a normal marriage.

Depending on what denomination you belong to, I believe much of the theological debate behind it is based upon symbolic roles of man and women (At least from a Latin perspective), sacrifice, role of the church that underpins the gender essentialism.

3)There was, I believe, one mentioning of homosexuality by one of Jesus' apostles (not Jesus).
Once again, he wasn't too specific and he was talking about Romans in particular.

Paul, and although I am sure that this will cause massive furor, but why exactly didn't Christianity promote homosexuality throughout the last few millennia if it were so neutral on the matter? It does seem to have been quite clear, although more on convention than anything. Of course this is admittedly coming from more of a cultural Christian than an actual believer.

It seems quite strange that this is only made an issue by people who dwell in an age where due to the progress of civil rights has enabled them to be voiced openly, it does strike me very much of changing a religion to fit the individual rather than the contrary. Of course I guess that is with all religions throughout history, but considering an Abrahamic one that places such emphasis on sexual misconduct, it does sound slightly paradoxical.

Although going on some other sites, Homosexualism is a term I just find infinitely amusing. There are far better Greek words to make a neologism of, but you have that monstrosity, alas.

4)I've also heard the argument that it isn't natural, but plenty of animals practice homosexuality on a regular basis.

I'm genuinely curious about this, and although I know this isn't the thread to discuss this at all - I am aware of the behaviour, but I wonder whether it can be filled with the same intent on that we have, and in a narrower field we westerners have regarding sexual behaviour. In so much is it appropriate to call it that, or whether it is 'natural' or not seems quite moot to me; but I digress.

As for the argument from nature in general, as I understand it is primarily concerned with reproduction rather than behaviour; after all human behaviour is still natural strictly speaking being confined to the 'natural' world. This ties in especially with the reproductive element of the symbolism that the Church draws upon.

5)What happened to loving thy neighbor?
6)If you really think gay people will burn, why not let them get married and be happy while they are here and just worry about your own salvation?

6) My view is this; that we share about the Bible's message and allow the person to decide for himself. To force him/her to convert would be sinking to the level of the Crusaders. There's a reason why we have free will. We can either choose to reject God or to embrace Him. Which is, I believe, why God is so glad every time a person chooses Him, rather than live an autonomous life.

Now, about the point: Nobody is forcing them to have a normal marriage. They have free will, let them decide what they want to do.

The answer here is quite obvious to me, from a Christian perspective (save that of those who hold a predestination version of theology) that it is the Christian duty to evangelise and save as many as possible from what would otherwise be certain damnation, and although this may have become warped generally that was the original intent behind much of it.

Don't have a same-sex marriage then. Thy religion should not interfere with matters of the State.

What is the basis of this? Why disestablishment as a general rule? Additionally, what do you think of the concept of the abolition of marriage - considering that to me it is rather (from a secular perspective) a particularly religiously centred 'relic'. At least if you consider it in terms of ceremony and societal standing.

---

You know, I hadn't considered what this will do to apostolic succession. It's an even bigger mess than I realized...

The greater problem is the structure of the church itself, although democratic, is very opaque and slow. Too an extent it is like the medieval church from which it split, in desperate need of structural reform (Not nessecarily theological mind, just structural). For instance I would oppose the ordination of women based purely on the issue of reunification, if other theological concerns weren't met - although the Anglo-Catholic wing (which I seem to be increasingly sliding towards) were moot on the issue, so I think there may be room for compromise.

I was under the assumption that prostration was also a common method of prayer in England at least during the 14th century.

Where did you get this from? It is still used in the Anglican church in certain circumstances mind, merely officious ones. Of course if it were some part of the Sarum Rite this is a possibility. Its not something that is done often, and it is hard to generalise.

---

On other matters, I've been contemplating taking a pilgrimage to Jerusalem - for historical reasons primarily. It won't be the first time my family have been there, but hopefully this time with swords sheathed.

[Valica]

90% of people who identify as Christian or Jewish don't follow those laws.

And where does that statistic come from?

I pulled a number out of my ass, but you are ignorant if you think a majority, or anywhere even close to half of Christians and Jews follow more than one or two laws in Leviticus.

[Valica]

-snipsnapimtakingabath-

Thanks for the long reply, man. I appreciate it.

[Bunkeranlage]

And where does that statistic come from?

I pulled a number out of my ass, but you are ignorant if you think a majority, or anywhere even close to half of Christians and Jews follow more than one or two laws in Leviticus.

I never said that a majority follow all those rules.
I will however, try and explain. Though not now, because it's close to midnight where I am, and my phone is giving me hell when I try to type correctly. If you're still interested in my explanation, perhaps you could TG me and I'll get back to you soon?

[Czechanada]

Apologies for quote editing, as I usually like to present them as a single message.

1)Why (assuming you are) are you guys against gay marriage or gays in general?
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say homosexuality is a sin.

1) Using WBC as an e.g. : Not all Christians are as homophobic the WBC. A joint statement released by the Methodists, Anglicans and a few other denominations condemns their homophobia in this statement:

We do not share their hatred of lesbian and gay people. We believe that God loves all, irrespective of sexual orientation, and we unreservedly stand against their message of hate toward those communities. Neither the style nor substance of their preaching expresses the historic, orthodox Christian faith. And we ask that the members of Westboro Baptist Church refrain from stirring up any more homophobic hatred in the UK or elsewhere.

Because I seem to have become an unofficial spokesperson for all things Anglican I would add that this is with the same firm stance that the CoE has made regarding same-sex marriage (It is decidedly against) and for homosexual celibacy, so again an Anglican is a tricky fish and can always present things both ways. Mere sophistry after-all.

Regarding homosexuality itself: One of the reasons for marriage would be for reproduction, and a same-gender couple can't reproduce as far as medicine is concerned now. Also, as Christians, we believe that we were created for male-female marriage, and believe that two people of the same gender marrying is a mockery of a normal marriage.

Depending on what denomination you belong to, I believe much of the theological debate behind it is based upon symbolic roles of man and women (At least from a Latin perspective), sacrifice, role of the church that underpins the gender essentialism.

3)There was, I believe, one mentioning of homosexuality by one of Jesus' apostles (not Jesus).
Once again, he wasn't too specific and he was talking about Romans in particular.

Paul, and although I am sure that this will cause massive furor, but why exactly didn't Christianity promote homosexuality throughout the last few millennia if it were so neutral on the matter? It does seem to have been quite clear, although more on convention than anything. Of course this is admittedly coming from more of a cultural Christian than an actual believer.

It seems quite strange that this is only made an issue by people who dwell in an age where due to the progress of civil rights has enabled them to be voiced openly, it does strike me very much of changing a religion to fit the individual rather than the contrary. Of course I guess that is with all religions throughout history, but considering an Abrahamic one that places such emphasis on sexual misconduct, it does sound slightly paradoxical.

Although going on some other sites, Homosexualism is a term I just find infinitely amusing. There are far better Greek words to make a neologism of, but you have that monstrosity, alas.

4)I've also heard the argument that it isn't natural, but plenty of animals practice homosexuality on a regular basis.

I'm genuinely curious about this, and although I know this isn't the thread to discuss this at all - I am aware of the behaviour, but I wonder whether it can be filled with the same intent on that we have, and in a narrower field we westerners have regarding sexual behaviour. In so much is it appropriate to call it that, or whether it is 'natural' or not seems quite moot to me; but I digress.

As for the argument from nature in general, as I understand it is primarily concerned with reproduction rather than behaviour; after all human behaviour is still natural strictly speaking being confined to the 'natural' world. This ties in especially with the reproductive element of the symbolism that the Church draws upon.

5)What happened to loving thy neighbor?
6)If you really think gay people will burn, why not let them get married and be happy while they are here and just worry about your own salvation?

6) My view is this; that we share about the Bible's message and allow the person to decide for himself. To force him/her to convert would be sinking to the level of the Crusaders. There's a reason why we have free will. We can either choose to reject God or to embrace Him. Which is, I believe, why God is so glad every time a person chooses Him, rather than live an autonomous life.

Now, about the point: Nobody is forcing them to have a normal marriage. They have free will, let them decide what they want to do.

The answer here is quite obvious to me, from a Christian perspective (save that of those who hold a predestination version of theology) that it is the Christian duty to evangelise and save as many as possible from what would otherwise be certain damnation, and although this may have become warped generally that was the original intent behind much of it.

Don't have a same-sex marriage then. Thy religion should not interfere with matters of the State.

What is the basis of this? Why disestablishment as a general rule? Additionally, what do you think of the concept of the abolition of marriage - considering that to me it is rather (from a secular perspective) a particularly religiously centred 'relic'. At least if you consider it in terms of ceremony and societal standing.

---

You know, I hadn't considered what this will do to apostolic succession. It's an even bigger mess than I realized...

The greater problem is the structure of the church itself, although democratic, is very opaque and slow. Too an extent it is like the medieval church from which it split, in desperate need of structural reform (Not nessecarily theological mind, just structural). For instance I would oppose the ordination of women based purely on the issue of reunification, if other theological concerns weren't met - although the Anglo-Catholic wing (which I seem to be increasingly sliding towards) were moot on the issue, so I think there may be room for compromise.

I was under the assumption that prostration was also a common method of prayer in England at least during the 14th century.

Where did you get this from? It is still used in the Anglican church in certain circumstances mind, merely officious ones. Of course if it were some part of the Sarum Rite this is a possibility. Its not something that is done often, and it is hard to generalise.

---

On other matters, I've been contemplating taking a pilgrimage to Jerusalem - for historical reasons primarily. It won't be the first time my family have been there, but hopefully this time with swords sheathed.

I have it on the authority of Stephen Biesty and Richard Platt.

[The Sanguinian Islands]

I have a serious question I've always wanted to ask a group of Christians.
Don't be too hard on me, I'm being serious.

Why (assuming you are) are you guys against gay marriage or gays in general?
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say homosexuality is a sin.

In Leviticus, Moses said that, and he was addressing a very small, very specific group of Jews.
Not only that, Jesus' coming supposedly fulfilled the Old Testament. That's why the NT was written.

There was, I believe, one mentioning of homosexuality by one of Jesus' apostles (not Jesus).
Once again, he wasn't too specific and he was talking about Romans in particular.

I've also heard the argument that it isn't natural, but plenty of animals practice homosexuality on a regular basis.

What happened to loving thy neighbor?
If you really think gay people will burn, why not let them get married and be happy while they are here and just worry about your own salvation?

personally my problem is the attitude of homosexuals, they are prone to exposing themselves in public and demanding respect without giving it back.

They think that a babby is born wanting penis/vagina when the very idea is pedophilic (not saying gays are pedophiles, i am in fact a homosexual, but still think before you say that kids are born gay), not to mention my problem with the massive hypocrisy of the LGBTQWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM+ group.

And animals don't think like me or you. Sorry, they don't have morals to the size of yours or mine, and scientifically I recall dogs having sex with other male dogs are for impressing a female dog

[Valica]

personally my problem is the attitude of homosexuals, they are (1.) prone to exposing themselves in public and demanding respect without giving it back.

They think that a babby is born wanting penis/vagina when the very idea is pedophilic (not saying gays are pedophiles, i am in fact a homosexual, but still think (2.) before you say that kids are born gay), not to mention my problem with the massive hypocrisy of the (***) LGBTQWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM+ group.

And animals (3.) don't think like me or you. Sorry, they don't have (4.) morals to the size of yours or mine, and scientifically I recall (5.) dogs having sex with other male dogs are for impressing a female dog

1. You just generalised every gay person.
1. Have you ever heard of the vocal minority? Most gay people I've met aren't very outward and flamboyant.

2. There is a mountain of evidence that says there are visible differences in the brains of homosexual and heterosexual men and women.
2. Whether or not it happens at birth has not been proven or disproven.

3. Actually, every living thing with a brain has basically the same needs and wants.
3. Humans are just a lot more complicated.

4. Morals are subjective, everyone has different morals.
4. ISIS thinks beheading children in the name of God is morally fine.

5. We aren't dogs.
5. Many other animals have homosexual tendencies for no observable reason. I think penguins are a good example of this.

*** LGBTQ+ or GSM (Gender & Sexual Minority) is fine.

[The Sanguinian Islands]

personally my problem is the attitude of homosexuals, they are (1.) prone to exposing themselves in public and demanding respect without giving it back.

They think that a babby is born wanting penis/vagina when the very idea is pedophilic (not saying gays are pedophiles, i am in fact a homosexual, but still think (2.) before you say that kids are born gay), not to mention my problem with the massive hypocrisy of the (***) LGBTQWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM+ group.

And animals (3.) don't think like me or you. Sorry, they don't have (4.) morals to the size of yours or mine, and scientifically I recall (5.) dogs having sex with other male dogs are for impressing a female dog

1. You just generalised every gay person. Have you ever heard of the vocal minority? Most gay people I've met aren't very outward and flamboyant.

2. There is a mountain of evidence that says there are visible differences in the brains of homosexual and heterosexual men and women.
2. Whether or not it happens at birth has not been proven or disproven.

3. Actually, every living thing with a brain has basically the same needs and wants. Humans are just more complicated.

4. Morals are subjective, everyone has different morals. ISIS thinks beheading children in the name of God is morally fine.

5. We aren't dogs. And many other animals have homosexual tendencies for no observable reason. I think penguins are a good example of this.

*** LGBTQ+ or GSM (Gender & Sexual Minority) is fine.

1. No i did not, I'm a lesbian, and I know not all lesbians are that Juno girl or that Indie pop group, same with gays not all being fab

2. Of course there is, they like doing different things.

3. A animal exists to survive, that's it.

4. ISIS are inherently evil people, those exist.

5.

We aren't dogs.

which is my point.

[Valica]

1. No i did not, I'm a lesbian, and I know not all lesbians are that Juno girl or that Indie pop group, same with gays not all being fab

2. Of course there is, they like doing different things.

3. A animal exists to survive, that's it.

4. ISIS are inherently evil people, those exist.

5.

We aren't dogs.

which is my point.

You are a very confusing person.

[The Sanguinian Islands]

1. No i did not, I'm a lesbian, and I know not all lesbians are that Juno girl or that Indie pop group, same with gays not all being fab

2. Of course there is, they like doing different things.

3. A animal exists to survive, that's it.

4. ISIS are inherently evil people, those exist.

5.
which is my point.

You are a very confusing person.

Can I quote you on this?

Also i'm not the person to ask for this stuff, I just returned to christ a year ago

[Bari]

I'm Roman Catholic.