Christian Discussion Thread IV

[Antirome]

It's actually a cluster of monasteries, one of which is technically not supposed to be there thanks to a feud with the Patriarch, and they're all essentially self-governing. Apparently one of the most peaceful places on Earth, according to my Athenian teacher.

Dual-covenanter.... is that your way of saying Dual-covenant theologian?

Yessir.

[Menassa]

Dual-covenanter.... is that your way of saying Dual-covenant theologian?

Yessir.

Beautiful.

[Antirome]

Yessir.

Beautiful.

Haha, I'll be honest, I was expecting an earful since many hold that Christians should just accept Judaism is incompatible with Christianity, so that response is something of a relief.

[Menassa]

Beautiful.

Haha, I'll be honest, I was expecting an earful since many hold that Christians should just accept Judaism is incompatible with Christianity, so that response is something of a relief.

Aye, most, see Christianity as the fulfillment or the final stage of Judaism, and the Judaism practiced today is a defective religion and the Jews who practice it cannot attain salvation without coming to Jesus.

But, that's them...no one takes a poll on fact.

[Antirome]

Haha, I'll be honest, I was expecting an earful since many hold that Christians should just accept Judaism is incompatible with Christianity, so that response is something of a relief.

Aye, most, see Christianity as the fulfillment or the final stage of Judaism, and the Judaism practiced today is a defective religion and the Jews who practice it cannot attain salvation without coming to Jesus.

But, that's them...no one takes a poll on fact.

Much like the late Saint John Paul the Great, I hold the two faiths to be brothers, and have a deep and abiding respect for Judaism, especially its scholarly traditions. Helps I grew up primarily around Jewish communities, too.

[Menassa]

Aye, most, see Christianity as the fulfillment or the final stage of Judaism, and the Judaism practiced today is a defective religion and the Jews who practice it cannot attain salvation without coming to Jesus.

But, that's them...no one takes a poll on fact.

Much like the late Saint John Paul the Great, I hold the two faiths to be brothers, and have a deep and abiding respect for Judaism, especially its scholarly traditions. Helps I grew up primarily around Jewish communities, too.

So you are a catholic then? Or have catholic leanings at least?

[The Archregimancy]

They have e-mail on Mount Athos....

I sent off my booking forms to reserve spots in the different monasteries I hope to stay at in September, and Philotheou Monastery - to my stunned amazement - actually e-mailed me back to confirm.

I knew that many of the monasteries have embraced modern technology far more than might be expected, but I never expected an e-mailed reply - even if it is clearly a form letter.

Not really a discussion point, that; but I thought the Orthodox contributors to the thread might be interested.

What is Mount Athos?
Some Orthodox Monastery, I take it?

The internet is a wonderful tool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Athos ... ction.html
http://www.athosfriends.org/

Summed up, Mount Athos is a peninsula in northern Greece (in Chalkidiki, near Thessalonika) that contains 20 governing monasteries, approximately 12 sketes (sub-monasteries), and an unknown number of hermitages.

The oldest monastery - the Great Lavra - was founded in 963 AD (though monks were already on the mountain before then) by St. Athanasius the Athonite; the 'newest' monastery - Stavronikita - was founded in 1536. The Mountain has therefore been one of the most important centres of Orthodox Monasticism for 1000 years, but its cultural importance also lies in the monasteries' extraordinary collection of Byzantine art and architecture, much of it dating back to the Byzantine Empire itself. A visit to the mountain therefore holds appeal to both Orthodox Christians and history buffs (and if you're both, well...)

However, access to the mountain is restricted. It requires a special permit that needs to be booked up to 6 months in advance, and only 100 Orthodox men and 10 non-Orthodox men are allowed entry each day. Entry is usually only for four nights (though short extensions are said to be easy to arrange; I'm planning on a 1-night extension). Under a Byzantine imperial ruling dating back to the 10th century, Women aren't allowed entry at all.

The current population is roughly 2,000 monks; while most are Greek, one monastery is Russian, one Serb, one Bulgarian, and two of the sketes are Romanian. However, even the "Greek" monasteries often contain monks from other countries; there are, for example, American, British, and Australian monks (and apparently a Peruvian and a black Dutchman from the Caribbean). The Mountain has always been a pan-Orthodox institution rather than a specifically Greek one.

Antirome is not quite correct to write that "one of [the monasteries] is technically not supposed to be there thanks to a feud with the Patriarch", though this is perhaps a language issue. He's referring to the controversy over Esphigmenou Monastery. It's not the monastery itself that's not supposed to be there, but rather the monks living in the monastery, who have been in dispute with the Patriarch of Constantinople since the early 1970s. The Patriarch has appointed another group of monks to take their place, but it's proven impossible to get the current ones out. Esphigmenou nonetheless remains in its traditional 18th place in the rather strict hierarchy of the 20 ruling monasteries.

[Antirome]

Much like the late Saint John Paul the Great, I hold the two faiths to be brothers, and have a deep and abiding respect for Judaism, especially its scholarly traditions. Helps I grew up primarily around Jewish communities, too.

So you are a catholic then? Or have catholic leanings at least?

I was baptised Anglican, but follow Catholic teachings for the most part, even if I do have some disagreements. The primary stopper in the way for my converting is a terrible aversion to crowds and unfamiliar people, which tends to make it hard for me to breathe, and as such I have yet to formally convert, much to my shame.

[Antirome]

Antirome is not quite correct to write that "one of [the monasteries] is technically not supposed to be there thanks to a feud with the Patriarch", though this is perhaps a language issue. He's referring to the controversy over Esphigmenou Monastery. It's not the monastery itself that's not supposed to be there, but rather the monks living in the monastery, who have been in dispute with the Patriarch of Constantinople since the early 1970s. The Patriarch has appointed another group of monks to take their place, but it's proven impossible to get the current ones out. Esphigmenou nonetheless remains in its traditional 18th place in the rather strict hierarchy of the 20 ruling monasteries.

I apologise, it is a language issue on my part. I was in fact referring to the fact that the monks themselves are not supposed to be there.

[Menassa]

So you are a catholic then? Or have catholic leanings at least?

I was baptised Anglican, but follow Catholic teachings for the most part, even if I do have some disagreements. The primary stopper in the way for my converting is a terrible aversion to crowds and unfamiliar people, which tends to make it hard for me to breathe, and as such I have yet to formally convert, much to my shame.

Ah, that would explain your belief in DCT then, it is the great irony of the Church that it no longer attempts to evangelize to the Jews.

Not a bad irony, just an irony.

[Antirome]

I was baptised Anglican, but follow Catholic teachings for the most part, even if I do have some disagreements. The primary stopper in the way for my converting is a terrible aversion to crowds and unfamiliar people, which tends to make it hard for me to breathe, and as such I have yet to formally convert, much to my shame.

Ah, that would explain your belief in DCT then, it is the great irony of the Church that it no longer attempts to evangelize to the Jews.

Not a bad irony, just an irony.

It very much is. There are conservative Catholics who hold that we should still try, but I can't say how numerous they are. Of course, now the RCC holds that the Orthodox are perfectly fine too, while they generally want little to do with us. The RCC seems to want everyone to be its friend, not that I mind that.

[Menassa]

Ah, that would explain your belief in DCT then, it is the great irony of the Church that it no longer attempts to evangelize to the Jews.

Not a bad irony, just an irony.

It very much is. There are conservative Catholics who hold that we should still try, but I can't say how numerous they are. Of course, now the RCC holds that the Orthodox are perfectly fine too, while they generally want little to do with us. The RCC seems to want everyone to be its friend, not that I mind that.

Well I suppose having Catholic friends can't be all that bad.

[Antirome]

It very much is. There are conservative Catholics who hold that we should still try, but I can't say how numerous they are. Of course, now the RCC holds that the Orthodox are perfectly fine too, while they generally want little to do with us. The RCC seems to want everyone to be its friend, not that I mind that.

Well I suppose having Catholic friends can't be all that bad.

I suppose the greatest issue with Catholic friends is that they radiate guilt, and when that combines with other religious guilt, it might very well form a black hole of apologising.

[Bunkeranlage]

It very much is. There are conservative Catholics who hold that we should still try, but I can't say how numerous they are. Of course, now the RCC holds that the Orthodox are perfectly fine too, while they generally want little to do with us. The RCC seems to want everyone to be its friend, not that I mind that.

Well I suppose having Catholic friends can't be all that bad.

I used to attend a Catholic school. They were decent people, just that during morning assembly, they would tend to ramble on with the prayers and the Hail Marys.

[Menassa]

Well I suppose having Catholic friends can't be all that bad.

I used to attend a Catholic school. They were decent people, just that during morning assembly, they would tend to ramble on with the prayers and the Hail Marys.

She is full of grace...

[Bunkeranlage]

I used to attend a Catholic school. They were decent people, just that during morning assembly, they would tend to ramble on with the prayers and the Hail Marys.

She is full of grace...

I've always wondered why Mary needs to intercede when we can take our concerns directly to Jesus.

[Antirome]

She is full of grace...

I've always wondered why Mary needs to intercede when we can take our concerns directly to Jesus.

Well, it's the same as having the living pray for you, even though we can pray to Christ directly.

[Bunkeranlage]

I've always wondered why Mary needs to intercede when we can take our concerns directly to Jesus.

Well, it's the same as having the living pray for you, even though we can pray to Christ directly.

As in, gathering people to pray together in a group? I see...

(Although, I once came across a Catholic church where people were actually kowtowing to a statue of a particular saint. Not so sure if that still counts as intercession...)

[Valica]

I have a serious question I've always wanted to ask a group of Christians.
Don't be too hard on me, I'm being serious.

Why (assuming you are) are you guys against gay marriage or gays in general?
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say homosexuality is a sin.

In Leviticus, Moses said that, and he was addressing a very small, very specific group of Jews.
Not only that, Jesus' coming supposedly fulfilled the Old Testament. That's why the NT was written.

There was, I believe, one mentioning of homosexuality by one of Jesus' apostles (not Jesus).
Once again, he wasn't too specific and he was talking about Romans in particular.

I've also heard the argument that it isn't natural, but plenty of animals practice homosexuality on a regular basis.

What happened to loving thy neighbor?
If you really think gay people will burn, why not let them get married and be happy while they are here and just worry about your own salvation?

[Antirome]

Well, it's the same as having the living pray for you, even though we can pray to Christ directly.

As in, gathering people to pray together in a group? I see...

(Although, I once came across a Catholic church where people were actually kowtowing to a statue of a particular saint. Not so sure if that still counts as intercession...)

That smacks strongly of syncretism, to me. Most Catholics find that unseemly, as far as I know.

[Menassa]

I have a serious question I've always wanted to ask a group of Christians.
Don't be too hard on me, I'm being serious.

Why (assuming you are) are you guys against gay marriage or gays in general?
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say homosexuality is a sin.

In Leviticus, Moses said that, and he was addressing a very small, very specific group of Jews.
Not only that, Jesus' coming supposedly fulfilled the Old Testament. That's why the NT was written.

[...]

It's actually all the Jews...

Leviticus 18:1-2

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God'....

[Valica]

I have a serious question I've always wanted to ask a group of Christians.
Don't be too hard on me, I'm being serious.

Why (assuming you are) are you guys against gay marriage or gays in general?
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say homosexuality is a sin.

In Leviticus, Moses said that, and he was addressing a very small, very specific group of Jews.
Not only that, Jesus' coming supposedly fulfilled the Old Testament. That's why the NT was written.

[...]

It's actually all the Jews...

Leviticus 18:1-2

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God'....

But it was to a small group at Mt. Sinai.
Either way, my point still stands.

[Menassa]

It's actually all the Jews...

Leviticus 18:1-2

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God'....

But it was to a small group at Mt. Sinai.
Either way, my point still stands.

No it does, but it would appear the commandments weren't for just those Jews at that time, but for all Jews always.

[Valica]

But it was to a small group at Mt. Sinai.
Either way, my point still stands.

No it does, but it would appear the commandments weren't for just those Jews at that time, but for all Jews always.

It's not like any Jews (or Christians) follow Leviticus anyways.
When was the last time you saw someone wearing one type of cloth and sacrificing a goat/bull for their sins?

[Antirome]

No it does, but it would appear the commandments weren't for just those Jews at that time, but for all Jews always.

It's not like any Jews (or Christians) follow Leviticus anyways.
When was the last time you saw someone wearing one type of cloth and sacrificing a goat/bull for their sins?

The animal sacrifice can't happen because there is no Temple to do it in, and thus it can not occur.